Oscar Pistorius - Sentencing - 7.6.2016

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Oscar Pistorius could compete in the 2020 Olympics after a top South African sports official said the killer would have 'paid his debt' to society and should be free to take part.

The disgraced sprinter may serve just one more year in jail for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp, which would give him time to train and qualify for the Tokyo games, the country’s senior Olympics official told MailOnline.

Tubby Reddy, CEO of South Africa’s Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, said he had ‘no problem’ with the idea of the 'Blade Runner' returning to the national team and representing his country at the highest level – despite widespread condemnation of Pistorius’ crime and six year sentence.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Reeva-s-friends-post-never-seen-pictures.html

‘He would have paid his debt to society and will be back in society, living as a normal South African citizen. There is no rule that says he wouldn’t be able to participate,’ the official said.
‘Yes, the sentence he has been given has divided opinion – there are those who are happy about it and there are those who are unhappy, and you will always have that.
'But if he is out on parole, as it seems he will be before then, and qualifies for selection then I don’t see how there can be a problem – why not?

Is this a joke? A paroled criminal competing in the Olympics?

P.S. It's worth going to the article just for the photos and cartoons.
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Reeva-s-friends-post-never-seen-pictures.html



Is this a joke? A paroled criminal competing in the Olympics?

P.S. It's worth going to the article just for the photos and cartoons.

From the article: (OPs agent being interviewed)

'We usually talk about athletics when I see him. But he has said he is retired, and he does sound like he means it.

‘He isn’t training, just doing gym work at home. He seemed to have accepted what was going to happen to him, that he was going back to prison, and seemed calm, he was fine.


The article is just trying to stir people up. It would appear that regardless of whether he is officially allowed to, Pistorius himself has no plans to try to compete in athletics again.
 
From the article: (OPs agent being interviewed)

'We usually talk about athletics when I see him. But he has said he is retired, and he does sound like he means it.

‘He isn’t training, just doing gym work at home. He seemed to have accepted what was going to happen to him, that he was going back to prison, and seemed calm, he was fine.


The article is just trying to stir people up. It would appear that regardless of whether he is officially allowed to, Pistorius himself has no plans to try to compete in athletics again.

I was mostly taken aback by the comments of the CEO of South Africa’s Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Tubby Reddy. He said nearly the same thing in 2014:

Pistorius, who is to be sentenced next month after being found guilty in the negligent killing of his girlfriend, could compete at any time because the South African Olympic committee has no regulations preventing someone with a criminal record from representing the country.

“As he stands right now, he’s free (to compete),” South African Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee chief executive Tubby Reddy told The Associated Press on Monday.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...s-free-compete-south-africa-article-1.1939867

The idea of a convicted murderer being allowed to compete in the Olympics messes with my brain, even if Oscar doesn't plan to do so.
 
I was mostly taken aback by the comments of the CEO of South Africa’s Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, Tubby Reddy. He said nearly the same thing in 2014:



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...s-free-compete-south-africa-article-1.1939867

The idea of a convicted murderer being allowed to compete in the Olympics messes with my brain, even if Oscar doesn't plan to do so.

It wont happen, so please don't let that article get under your skin. That's exactly what it is trying to do :)
 
Completely agree.

For instance does the existence of "substantial and compelling circumstances" mean that the Judge can then approach sentencing without the minimum in mind?

Or does it mean that the point of departure is 15 but each "substantial and compelling circumstances" is applied as a discount?

The Judge seemed to approach it on the basis that once the minimum was off the table - she could approach sentence with a clean slate.

Nel - correctly in my view - argued that 15 years is the starting point

Time should have been added for each aggravating factor.

Then a discount could apply for each "substantial and compelling circumstance"

In my view, factors like "remorse" cannot apply as a discount to the 15 mandatory minimum

Otherwise what is the point of the mandatory requirement?

Remorse etc are just normal sentencing factors which presumably the legislature intended to exclude in the case of murder by applying a minimum.

Yes, there was a definite lack of clarity. She didn't spell it out, but it sounded as if, having said that public opinion should play no role in sentencing, she was, in fact, intending to treat the outrage caused by the public 'misperception' that he had deliberately killed Reeva, as a mitigating factor.

I think her sentence was a reaction against the death threats she received after the culpable homicide verdict.
 
Yes, there was a definite lack of clarity. She didn't spell it out, but it sounded as if, having said that public opinion should play no role in sentencing, she was, in fact, intending to treat the outrage caused by the public 'misperception' that he had deliberately killed Reeva, as a mitigating factor.

I think her sentence was a reaction against the death threats she received after the culpable homicide verdict.

I have read somewhere in discussion of SA sentencing guidelines that the judge has so much leeway that if they find that imposing the minimum prescribed sentence would in and of itself present an injustice, then that alone constitutes a compelling and substantial circumstance.

The legislation might have just as well said it was a "suggested" minimum sentence.

I really worry that the State faces an uphill battle in appealing her sentence of 6 years. They need to do it though.
 
The riddle that is Masipa is going to trouble us for a long time.

One main reason that I find it difficult to subscribe to the view - that her sympathy for OP is the reason behind her verdicts - is the utter disrespect for Reeva and now Barry Steenkamp that comes out in her judgement. I simply do not see any reason whatsoever why Masipa would be or would have to be so disrespectful to them, even if she wanted to save OP.

For the same reason, I have now ruled out her being paid off as a possible reason too. If she was corrupt, or sympathetic to OP, she could do what she wanted to do without being so disrespectful to the victim and her family. On both occasions, the original trial and this time, the disrespect is so very prominent in the verdicts that she wrote or read out. Add to this, the observation that both documents are devoid of any coherent logical reasoning, forget sound legal principles. One can be incompetent, but can one be incompetent to this extent? Remember that she had been a social worker, a crime reporter and an advocate prior to being appointed as a judge. That leaves me with the following as a strong possibility. That someone else wrote the script for her, and somehow, she was pressurised to go with it.
How? Of course we don't know, we can only speculate. But there are just so many ways possible. We all are human beings, have our weaknesses. Blackmail, threat - these are all very distinct possibilities. If you have money, and have no morals, there are just so many avenues open to you to abuse a system. And by our experience so far, the Pistorius family is very well qualified in this respect.

Two more points that kind of supports this line of thinking:
1.
the script, the verdict both times is based roughly on whatever Roux said in the court, or wrote in the HOA. This was the case in the trial. This is the case this time also, if you look closely. On the other hand, it could not be Roux himself. Or anyone legally sound. A person like him would not make so many elementary mistakes MrJitty has been repeatedly pointing out here. Forget legally sound, the person has to be pretty dim - his errors are evident to even me, with no legal background, because there are just so many internal inconsistencies, total absence of coherent logic. If it was someone like Roux, for example, he would have written the original verdict in a much better way, that would have made it appeal proof. Even Masipa should have done a better job of it. So this could be some close confidante, with some rudimentary legal knowledge, but no real understanding, picked up for the job.
2.
Not just Masipa, I do not see why would anyone be disrespectful to Reeva or her father in this whole matter; unless - unless he or she perhaps believes, or better still, knows that there was indeed an argument that led to the killing and holds Reeva responsible for that argument. For them, the entire blame is on her, and then the disrespect does not seem unnatural any more. Once again, points to the Pistorius family.

I'm not ready to go there with respect to corruption. Masipa would have had the transcripts of the Appeal and Trial before her - so yes, she could have copied some of Roux's submissions and made them her own. So probably guilty of plagiarism.

To me, Masipa has many issues - I saw bias and ineptitude plus numerous psychological defects. Imo, Roux saw it too and milked it. Also, a lot of what appeared to be resentment towards Reeva and her family. She got a spanking from the Supreme Crt and came out swinging.

I'm glad she didn't get that higher position of Judge President. She has a very high opinion of herself and delusional, if you ask me. Here's a sample:

......Meanwhile, another commissioner, Julius Malema, the firebrand who leads the Economic Freedom Fighters, grilled Masipa over why she was seeking the job when she was nearing retirement. He asked: “You are left with two years, and then after that we must go and get another judge. Don’t you think it is better for this commission to go for someone who can stay for a longer period?”

Masipa responded: “Two years is a very long time. When I leave there would be no instabilities
.”......

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-thokozile-masipa-judge
 
I have read somewhere in discussion of SA sentencing guidelines that the judge has so much leeway that if they find that imposing the minimum prescribed sentence would in and of itself present an injustice, then that alone constitutes a compelling and substantial circumstance.

The legislation might have just as well said it was a "suggested" minimum sentence.

I really worry that the State faces an uphill battle in appealing her sentence of 6 years. They need to do it though.

BBM

I think they have an excellent chance of winning. The SCA that changed the verdict to murder didn't envision a sentence of 6 years instead of 5 years. He can get out in 2 years. It's beyond ridiculous!
 
I have read somewhere in discussion of SA sentencing guidelines that the judge has so much leeway that if they find that imposing the minimum prescribed sentence would in and of itself present an injustice, then that alone constitutes a compelling and substantial circumstance..

Masipa didn't say that though. She can't really say it after the event it must be said as part of sentencing verdict. Maybe she missed a trick there?

What she gave him in mitigation wasn't vastly different from what she gave before.

I'm not totally confident that the state will appeal. We shall have to wait and see.
 
To me, Masipa has many issues - I saw bias and ineptitude plus numerous psychological defects. Imo, Roux saw it too and milked it. Also, a lot of what appeared to be resentment towards Reeva and her family. She got a spanking from the Supreme Crt and came out swinging.

I'm glad she didn't get that higher position of Judge President. She has a very high opinion of herself and delusional, if you ask me

RSBM

I tend to agree with you, Jilly. I think she has an inflexible attitude and firmly believes that her original culpable homicide verdict was correct and that the SCA were not fearless but gave in to public opinion.
 
Masipa didn't say that though. She can't really say it after the event it must be said as part of sentencing verdict. Maybe she missed a trick there?

What she gave him in mitigation wasn't vastly different from what she gave before.

I'm not totally confident that the state will appeal. We shall have to wait and see.

I think the main criticism of her reasoning on her Sentence was that the reason she gave weren't compelling and substantial, they had to be BOTH THINGS , not just one, and the reasons she did give also did not warrant taking 9 years off the minimum 15 years for Murder.
 
I think the main criticism of her reasoning on her Sentence was that the reason she gave weren't compelling and substantial, they had to be BOTH THINGS , not just one, and the reasons she did give also did not warrant taking 9 years off the minimum 15 years for Murder.

Yeah.

Mr Jitty says though that aggravating factors should have added years to the 15. (?) then mitigation decreases total if I understood him correctly. So it may be actually more than 9 if so.

Masipa didn't break down the figures for all to see.
 
So if Oscar has 6 years. Then he should be out in 1 year right?

Because he had 5 years and was out in 1. So this means only 1 more year before going back on parole. Yes or no ?
 
Some great posts as usual sleuthers. Sentencing thoughts:

- Remorse. You can't be remorseful for a crime while denying the crime. “Sorry I got the wrong person” does not qualify. And “why did Reeva do/not do X Y Z” is victim-blaming.
- Circumstances of the crime. I find it aggravating, not mitigating, that OP showed murderous contempt for the supposed intruder and only spared any thought or showed any care for the person behind the door when he realised he had got the wrong person. This gets to the heart of the crime and the public interest in sending a message that all lives matter equally and the law must be followed.
- Bordering on dolus directus. The SCA did hint at this. It said the possibility of death from shooting was obvious and made even more likely by 4 shots. It then said it is a natural inference that one has as their intention the probable consequences of their actions. The possibility of death must be bordering on probable in this case.
- Dolus directus and identity. Barry Steenkamp never said he thought the crime was dolus directus. He said "I believe personally there was an argument." If OP knew it was Reeva, it says nothing about dolus directus or dolus eventualis. I question if Masipa has understood the nature of the crime or what the SCA said about identity.
- Public opinion. She contradicted herself, did she ignore it or did she use it to knock time off? Was there any reliable evidence presented on it? Does it make any sense, would she give someone more time because the public think they are innocent?
- Respect for the court, victims, truth and justice. Plethora of defences to get away with the crime in the trial and then lying to Scholz to get a lighter sentence. These must be aggravating.
 
Yeah.

Mr Jitty says though that aggravating factors should have added years to the 15. (?) then mitigation decreases total if I understood him correctly. So it may be actually more than 9 if so.

Masipa didn't break down the figures for all to see.

The criticism of her reasoning was that the mitigating factors she says she took into account to reach her Sentencing far outweighed the aggravating factors ,which has been disagreed with by all and sundry by Legal Professionals and i think the Surpreme Court would disagree too, but to question a Judge twice, is what she's probably banking on not happening. I am not sure the funding is going to be allocated by the State to Appeal again, but it won't be for want of trying by Nel i'd have thought

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in his office after the Sentencing.

I only saw the top of Nel's head, did anyone see his face during and after she gave her Sentencing ? was he still in the Courtroom to hear it ?
 
Some great posts as usual sleuthers. Sentencing thoughts:

- Remorse. You can't be remorseful for a crime while denying the crime. “Sorry I got the wrong person” does not qualify. And “why did Reeva do/not do X Y Z” is victim-blaming.
- Circumstances of the crime. I find it aggravating, not mitigating, that OP showed murderous contempt for the supposed intruder and only spared any thought or showed any care for the person behind the door when he realised he had got the wrong person. This gets to the heart of the crime and the public interest in sending a message that all lives matter equally and the law must be followed.
- Bordering on dolus directus. The SCA did hint at this. It said the possibility of death from shooting was obvious and made even more likely by 4 shots. It then said it is a natural inference that one has as their intention the probable consequences of their actions. The possibility of death must be bordering on probable in this case.
- Dolus directus and identity. Barry Steenkamp never said he thought the crime was dolus directus. He said "I believe personally there was an argument." If OP knew it was Reeva, it says nothing about dolus directus or dolus eventualis. I question if Masipa has understood the nature of the crime or what the SCA said about identity.
- Public opinion. She contradicted herself, did she ignore it or did she use it to knock time off? Was there any reliable evidence presented on it? Does it make any sense, would she give someone more time because the public think they are innocent?
- Respect for the court, victims, truth and justice. Plethora of defences to get away with the crime in the trial and then lying to Scholz to get a lighter sentence. These must be aggravating.

I think Judge Leach was hinting at RETRIAL BECAUSE JUDGE MASIPA GOT THIS CASE SO VERY WRONG , IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MURDER DOLUS DIRECTUS
but he couldn't push that to happen , so he pushed the Dolus Directus point by not actually saying it when he said that Captain Magena's evidence, the ballistics should have been taken into account in giving the appropriate conviction, upgrading to Murder , back to re-sentencing -
and then he ended it all with " Tilly Masipa still did a great job " , (as if)
 
Yeah.

Mr Jitty says though that aggravating factors should have added years to the 15. (?) then mitigation decreases total if I understood him correctly. So it may be actually more than 9 if so.

Masipa didn't break down the figures for all to see.

The criticism of her reasoning was that the mitigating factors she says she took into account to reach her Sentencing far outweighed the aggravating factors ,which has been disagreed with by all and sundry by Legal Professionals and i think the Surpreme Court would disagree too, but to question a Judge twice, is what she's probably banking on not happening. I am not sure the funding is going to be allocated by the NPA to continue with this Case and Appeal again, but it won't be for want of trying by Nel, would love to be a fly on the wall in his office after the Sentencing.

I only saw the top of Nel's head, did anyone see his face during and after she gave her Sentencing ? was he still in the Courtroom to hear it ?
 
The criticism of her reasoning was that the mitigating factors she says she took into account to reach her Sentencing far outweighed the aggravating factors ,which has been disagreed with by all and sundry by Legal Professionals and i think the Surpreme Court would disagree too, but to question a Judge twice, is what she's probably banking on not happening. I am not sure the funding is going to be allocated by the State to Appeal again, but it won't be for want of trying by Nel i'd have thought

I would love to have been a fly on the wall in his office after the Sentencing.

I only saw the top of Nel's head, did anyone see his face during and after she gave her Sentencing ? was he still in the Courtroom to hear it ?

I am not a lawyer but I've been involved in two federal cases that I had to appeal. The appeals cost next to nothing because it is just using what is on the record, as opposed to the trial that involves tremendous work and expense to create. Compare it to producing a movie versus grabbing a few clips from that same two hour production to make a YouTube video.
 
BBM

I think they have an excellent chance of winning. The SCA that changed the verdict to murder didn't envision a sentence of 6 years instead of 5 years. He can get out in 2 years. It's beyond ridiculous!

I sure hope you are right. I worry that the SCA would have to find something legally "wrong" with her sentence though. Will it really meet their criteria of shockingly inappropriate? (It does mine!)
 
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