P.I. Says He Videotaped Area Where Caylee Was Later Found

[Chezhire]

Good post.

People need to appreciate that prosecutors cannot layout a storyline to the jury that supports both murder one and aggravated manslaughter. Moreover, if they do not lay out a storyline in their opening statement, that will tell me that they are almost certainly but whistling into the wind.

Prosecutors do provide opening statements that include the bases for both manslaughter and first degree murder. Here's a simplistic version of one for this case:

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, you will hear testimony that a little girl named Caylee died, that her mother was the last person seen on this earth with her, and that her body was found discarded in the woods in a trash bag. It will be up to you to determine whether Casey Anthony planned in advance to kill her child, or whether the death of her child was an accident. ..."

 

[SuziQ]

And I have yet to hear them claim they are going to prove premeditation. They indicted her for aggravated child abuse, that is not a coincidence when it ties into a first degree murder charge (death during commission of aggravated child abuse).

lol, I see you beat me to this.

 

[TxRose]

IIRC, murder one in Florida and in this case applies because of alleged child abuse/neglect charge that Casey was indicted for. If your kid dies because of abuse/neglect at your hand or abuse/neglect you allow, it's considered premeditated.

Ok - well then Wudge raises a good point. Why are they including a lesser charge? If you go with the theory she flat out murdered her on purpose...that is clearly murder one. If you assume she was abusing her by using cloroform or duct tape...and she dies...that is murder one as well because of the Florida statute. So just what circumstance would cause a verdict of manslaughter - given what we know so far? Just a lesser charge included in case the jury can't bring themselves to convict her of murder one and the penalty that would follow?

 

[Boston]

No.

But juries absolutely want to hear a storyline that makes sense -- it goes to the cohesion of the People's case or lack thereof.

Here's your story line...

A Selfish, Lying, Thieving, Sociopath (Casey) wants to get rid of a Major inconvenience in her life (Caylee)

Casey Murders Caylee by holding a Chloroform soaked rag over her mouth & throws her away in the woods like a piece of trash

When anyone asks "Where's Caylee"?..........Casey tells them........ "She's with The Nanny"

 

[TxRose]

Prosecutors do provide opening statements that include the bases for both manslaughter and first degree murder. Here's a simplistic version of one for this case:

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, you will hear testimony that a little girl named Caylee died, that her mother was the last person seen on this earth with her, and that her body was found discarded in the woods in a trash bag. It will be up to you to determine whether Casey Anthony planned in advance to kill her child, or whether the death of her child was an accident. ..."

Ok - you posted while I was writing! Thanks Chezhire. That answers my question. :blowkiss:

 

[Chezhire]

Prosecutors do provide opening statements that include the bases for both manslaughter and first degree murder. Here's a simplistic version of one for this case:

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, you will hear testimony that a little girl named Caylee died, that her mother was the last person seen on this earth with her, and that her body was found discarded in the woods in a trash bag. It will be up to you to determine whether Casey Anthony planned in advance to kill her child, or whether the death of her child was an accident. ..."

Ok - well then Wudge raises a good point. Why are they including a lesser charge? If you go with the theory she flat out murdered her on purpose...that is clearly murder one. If you assume she was abusing her by using cloroform or duct tape...and she dies...that is murder one as well because of the Florida statute. So just what circumstance would cause a verdict of manslaughter - given what we know so far? Just a lesser charge included in case the jury can't bring themselves to convict her of murder one and the penalty that would follow?

TxRose - see my post, above, which explains this. It's done a lot of times when the prosecutor isn't sure he can get murder 1, but he knows that the jury will believe that the defendant did kill the decedent.

 

[Chezhire]

Ok - you posted while I was writing! Thanks Chezhire. That answers my question. :blowkiss:

:blowkiss:

 

[Chezhire]

Based on clear and unyielding evidence that we know of -- which is very little -- the evidence is sufficient to convict Casey on what charge (planned and deliberated murder or aggravated manslaughter?

:waitasec: What the heck is "clear and unyeilding evidence?" Never heard that legal standard before. :waitasec:

 

[Wudge]

Incorrect. Attorneys may claim work product. I do it all the time. (forgot to mention: whether or not the Anthonys are the PIs clients is irrelevant, as neither the Anthonys nor the PI are attorneys, ergo the work product privilege, which only applies to the work product that a court deems to be an attorney's work, is inapplicable.)

Correct. Work product is a not a privilege. I was referring to attorney-client privilege, albeit it poorly.

 

[Crafti]

Chezhire,

Could you answer my question in post #807?

 

[Chezhire]

Haven't you been saying over and over again that her behavior after the fact has no bearing on premeditation? And besides, wrapping her in plastic and putting her in the trunk was the plan, bad plan, but a plan nonetheless. No plan would equal leaving her lay wherever she died.

First degree murder in the state of Fl includes the death of a child during aggravated child abuse. IF it turns out to be true that duct tape was wrapped around her head, that is aggravated child abuse all day.

I'm seeing this pattern, too, impatientredhead, and I guess she likes to play the :devil:'s advocate. ..

 

[SusanNV]

That's right...what does Baez have to do with this then? Shouldn't the new attorney, Conway, be talking?

From what I understand, the PI Casey was employed by Baez first, and during that time, he was present during Baez/KC conversations (presumably this area was discussed???) Baez is now saying that the PI can't be questioned on anything he might have heard during these conversations, and that the videographer that filmed the site, being brought to the site by the PI, even though it occured after his emply with Baez, is covered by "work product" confidentiality. It's very weak, and I don't think the Judge is going to care.

 

[Wudge]

:waitasec: What the heck is "clear and unyeilding evidence?" Never heard that legal standard before. :waitasec:

(Arthur Miller ... Harvard Version, 1973)

Clear means just that. If it is not clear, it can't be reliable.

Unyielding refers to the mandate for jurors to yield to the defense if they provide a reasonable explanation for an item of evidence.

 

[Boston]

Ok - well then Wudge raises a good point. Why are they including a lesser charge? If you go with the theory she flat out murdered her on purpose...that is clearly murder one. If you assume she was abusing her by using cloroform or duct tape...and she dies...that is murder one as well because of the Florida statute. So just what circumstance would cause a verdict of manslaughter - given what we know so far? Just a lesser charge included in case the jury can't bring themselves to convict her of murder one and the penalty that would follow?

When the charges were first filed I remember one of great "Legal Minds" from the Nancy Grace Show mentioned that he thought they included the lesser charge of manslaughter because it kept the option of a Plea Deal open with Baez.

I'm not sure if I have this right but this very topic was discussed back when KC was first indicted.

I'll look for the transcript to see if I can find out exactly what they said.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Don't we have a thread to discuss the legal BS here?!

 

[Chezhire]

Correct. Work product is a not a privilege. I was referring to attorney-client privilege, albeit it poorly.

Gotcha. Work product is sometimes referred to as the "work product privilege" or the "work doctrine." My real point, though, is that only the attorney may claim it.

Attorney-client privilege belongs to the client and only the client may waive it, but obviously both client and attorny, on ehalf of the client, may (and do) invoke it.

 

[Wudge]

Prosecutors do provide opening statements that include the bases for both manslaughter and first degree murder. Here's a simplistic version of one for this case:

"Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, you will hear testimony that a little girl named Caylee died, that her mother was the last person seen on this earth with her, and that her body was found discarded in the woods in a trash bag. It will be up to you to determine whether Casey Anthony planned in advance to kill her child, or whether the death of her child was an accident. ..."

Counselor, this is not a storyline.

 

[Wudge]

Gotcha. Work product is sometimes referred to as the "work product privilege" or the "work doctrine." My real point, though, is that only the attorney may claim it.

Attorney-client privilege belongs to the client and only the client may waive it, but obviously both client and attorny, on ehalf of the client, may (and do) invoke it.

(tip of my hat)

 

[Chezhire]

(Arthur Miller ... Harvard Version, 1973)

Clear means just that. If it is not clear, it can't be reliable.

Unyielding refers to the mandate for jurors to yield to the defense if they provide a reasonable explanation for an item of evidence.

Oh, I see, you're quoting literary terms/phrases from fiction, not legal standards relied upon by judges when instructing juries. I misunderstod you. My apologies.

 

[TxRose]

When the charges were first filed I remember one of great "Legal Minds" from the Nancy Grace Show mentioned that he thought they included the lesser charge of manslaughter because it kept the option of a Plea Deal open with Baez.

I'm not sure if I have this right but this very topic was discussed back when KC was first indicted.

I'll look for the transcript to see if I can find out exactly what they said.

I guess that could be a reason too. Though I can't imagine now why the state would consider a plea. I think they are out for blood now! :furious:

But Chezhire gave a very specific example of what they would argue that would support listing the two very different charges. That really made sense given the facts of this case as we know it. I think if there is a way to leave a verdict "safety net" if you will...just in case a juror can't buy completely into your storyline is a good idea. You can't argue two storylines...like Wudge said....but you can leave an opening if there are parts of your storyline that perhaps don't fly with a juror.