PA PA - Bedford, 'Mr. Bones' WhtMale 30-35, 585UMPA, 30-06 rifle, gold dental wk, camping equip, Oct'58

[TrustedTracker5097]

RBBM

Maybe not.
Article from Pgh Post Gazette dated 10/13/58 states:
Found beside the body was a Remington "721" rifle, 30/06 calibre.
and
A Remington Arms representative yesterday studied the gun in an effort to trace it.
(pertinent part of article attached)

link to clipping: Mr Bones Remington - Newspapers.com

link to entire page: 13 Oct 1958, Page 2 - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette at Newspapers.com

I actually got a chance to read this same clipping today, CC.

To me, the most interesting detail besides the model of the rifle is the fact that the rifle is described as having a spent shell in the chamber. For those who don't know, the rifle in question is a bolt action design. This means that in order to operate the firearm, the user manipulates a metal bolt on the rear portion of the weapon. First, the bolt is pulled to the rear to load a cartridge into the firing mechanism. The bolt is then pushed forward to seat the cartridge into firing position. After the rifle is fired, the bolt must be pulled back by the shooter once again if they wish to fire another shot. This ejects the spent shell casing from the fired cartridge and simultaneously loads a new cartridge into position. The fact that a spent shell was still in Mr. Bones's gun indicates the gun had been fired, but nobody went on to manipulate the bolt to extract the empty shell. This either means a suicide or accident took place (as dead people can't operate a firearm after all) or you had a murderer who was clever or lucky enough to not manipulate the bolt after firing, as the extracted shell casing would have indicated the presence of another person who was able to operate the firearm after Mr. Bones was already dead.

I also have to wonder: does anybody know if the police found any lead fragments from the bullet that killed Mr. Bones? I'm curious because, even if these fragments are too small to determine what weapon they came out of, I'm pretty sure there are forensic tests that can be done on the chemical structure of the lead to determine whether or not those bullet fragments came from the same batch of ammo as the unfired cartridges that were loaded in the rifle along with the spent shell. If it turns out it came from a different batch, it might be an indicator that the .30-06 rifle found with Mr. Bones was not the weapon that shot him. Ergo, another weapon might have been at the scene at the time of his death. Referring back to the Charles Conner story, I believe one of the sources out there on his case suggested the police found a bullet hole in the wall of Ralph Forsythe's home. Assuming there was still a bullet lodged in the wall, and the police still have it in their possession, I wonder if a comparison could be made of the chemical structure of that bullet and the fragments found from the bullet that killed Mr. Bones. If anybody knows the answers to these questions, I'd love to know.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Mr. B vs Conner
Wondering, does anyone know if there has been comparison of the two head shots?
Both were shot with a rifle.
What was the position of head wound for Connor, and then what was the position for Mr. Bones?

My apologies if this information is in another post, but do we know for sure Connor was shot with a rifle?

 

[Eddie99]

2 men testified that they saw RF shoot Connor with a rifle.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Is

2 men testified that they saw RF shoot Connor with a rifle.

Is there a source you can pull that has this detail? I think Magnum said the witnesses saw a pistol. I tried the other day to see if the court transcripts for Ralph Forsythe's trial in 1957 were publicly available, as I figured the full testimonies would be there, but couldn't find anything other than documentation about his appeals.

 

[Eddie99]

I'm 99.9999% sure it was a rifle.

I think I searched it out on news papers dot Com. The case was well covered in the media in lima.

I do not have anything saved that I can share here.

 

[Ozoner]

Is

Is there a source you can pull that has this detail? I think Magnum said the witnesses saw a pistol. I tried the other day to see if the court transcripts for Ralph Forsythe's trial in 1957 were publicly available, as I figured the full testimonies would be there, but couldn't find anything other than documentation about his appeals.

I'm 99.9999% sure it was a rifle.

I think I searched it out on news papers dot Com. The case was well covered in the media in lima.

I do not have anything saved that I can share here.

The Conner angle is, and always has been, ridiculously far-fetched, in my opinion.

Conner's murderer was not about to drive such a long distance and create a staged suicide scene when he could have simply buried the body, dumped it in a remote spot, or stuffed it into a out-of-the-way manhole or culvert.

People get depressed and kill themselves out in the woods, and that's most likely what happened here. It could have been an accident, but I doubt it. The only thing I'm certain about is that Mr. Bones is not Charles Conner.

All IMHO.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

The Conner angle is, and always has been, ridiculously far-fetched, in my opinion.

Conner's murderer was not about to drive such a long distance and create a staged suicide scene when he could have simply buried the body, dumped it in a remote spot, or stuffed it into a out-of-the-way manhole or culvert.

People get depressed and kill themselves out in the woods, and that's most likely what happened here. It could have been an accident, but I doubt it. The only thing I'm certain about is that Mr. Bones is not Charles Conner.

All IMHO.

Believe me, Ozoner, I was extremely skeptical of the theory when I first heard it too. I think it's also important to note something with a lot of these unidentified descendant cases that have been solved in recent years: Once the DNA testing is able to conclusively prove an individual's identity, the result is often someone whose name has come completely out of left field. To the best of my knowledge, not a single person on this forum named Joseph Zarelli or Charles Webb as candidates for the Boy in the Box or the Somerton Man respectively prior to the DNA results being made public. The same could be true here. This could very well be somebody no one on this thread has mentioned because they weren't reported missing at the time, and no friends or relatives have been willing or able to come forward.

That being said, there is enough compelling circumstantial evidence tying the two men together that I think at least warrants a closer look if for nothing else than to definitively rule out the theory through a better DNA test. Better yet, why not build a family tree for Mr. Bones? We tried to do that back in 2021 but that never went anywhere. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I just hope the recent identification of Joseph Zarelli is enough to compel investigators to bring genealogists onboard to help them with this case.

 

[Eddie99]

Ozoner

They introduced evidence at RFs trial, from a gas station / car wash in Cadiz Ohio.

Which is slightly more than half way to bedford PA.

Additionally....I don't remember the exact times here, so spot me some wiggle room here as I explain:

He was spotted in Cadiz Ohio, at a time that if you calculated the time to get from lima, to bedford and then backtrack to the gas station in cadiz. You had about 4-6 extra hours. (Assuming he left shortly after the murder)

Point being he DID drive, at a minimum, to cadiz Ohio. Where he was seen disposing of blood soaked rags. The owner saw him and wrote down the plate # on the door of a shed. They took the shed door and used it as evidence in the trial.

If you drew a straight line from lima to bedford, cadiz would be right on that line.

 

[Eddie99]

Also,

These small towns and cities in western PA and NY were known for being way stations for organized criminal activities between NY, Philly, Chicago & Detroit.

I'm in Western New York. I know - There are a number of cases in and around the PA/NY border with unidentified bodies found with hands and heads missing.

The common working theory is that these are folks from NYC/Chicago that ran in tough circles.

Who knows.

At risk of repeating myself, as I'm sure some folks are tired of....

I still think magnum has this.

Logistics line up.
The rare height of the victim.
The wound location.
Time of death.
Weapon style with Ft Wayne connection.

The jacket books and camping equipment are the only oddities.
I have no idea how to explain those.
But I am going to say this. It was the late 50s. No dna, no unified fingerprint system. It's seems possible to me RF was cunning enough to create a subterfuge. He could have stole the jacket and or the back with the books.

 

[rsd1200]

'Mr. Bones' gets a face
Case has remain unsolved since late '50s
Saturday, February 07, 2004
By The Associated Press

A sheriff's unease over having four-decade-old human remains sitting in a barrel in the county jail has led the FBI to produce a composite drawing of the shooting victim known only as "Mr. Bones." ...
State police released the drawing of a 6-foot-4, 200-pound man with brown hair who was between the ages of 30 and 35 when he was shot in the head sometime in the 1950s.

The man's body was found in October 1958 in a wooded area in Bedford, about 85 miles east of Pittsburgh.While authorities believe the gunshot wound was self-inflicted, they don't know whether it was an accident or a suicide." What we would like to get is to find out who this person was and to have him returned to his family so he could have a proper burial," lead investigator Trooper Joe Kovel said Friday.

The reconstruction of the man's skull and body was prompted by a request from the Bedford County sheriff's office to bury the remains after they had been passed from sheriff to sheriff. Current Sheriff Gordon Diehl enlisted a clergyman to perform last rites over the remains.

"I wasn't particularly fond of having the safekeeping of him," Diehl said Friday. "You know, it was a human being. It's time that he be put to rest."

But the district attorney stepped in, noting that the case was still open. The objection prompted state police to revive its investigation in late 2001.
Investigators believe the man was well-off because of gold dental work and a pair of contact lenses -- unusual for the time. He wore dungarees and a black motorcycle jacket.Found with him were poetry books, a .30-06 Springfield rifle, a canteen and camping equipment. A black wallet contained $38 and a brass key stamped "Active 195 Ave A" on it.

The contact lenses were traced to a Chicago manufacturer and fitted by an Illinois physician, but there are no records of the buyer. The rifle was sold in Fort Wayne, Ind., in 1939. The brass key hasn't been matched to any location. And the dental work -- a bridge and gold crown on the upper right side -- yielded no matches.

When the body was found, investigators tried to match him to missing persons reports around the country. Kovel has done the same and found nothing.

Police hope to hear from someone on the man's maternal side for a possible DNA match....

------------------------------------------
Go to link below to see Composite Drawing.
Link:
'Mr. Bones' gets a face

BIUBM
"Avenue A", is a street that runs through Manhattan. It would be near the edge of Greenwich Village (it was called the Alphabet Area. Styuvessant is around there too.) Back in that era, it was very diverse. The book of poetry, bedroll, and motorcycle jacket struck a chord, that took me there.

I wonder if someone made off with his vehicle/motorcycle? If a Veteran, he could have been motorcycling across the U.S. WWII saw a huge increase in motorcycling and taking trips on Route 66, or to get his contact lenses/dental work done by a specialist near Chicago. Also, it used to take WEEKS for contact lenses to be prescribed/fitted/made/ and then returned to your eye specialist.


I've read that Active, was stamped on some items, to denote "Active Service" in the military. Only some items were stamped, and only for a brief period between WWI and WWII, IIRC, to denote that they were service men/women who had the item. Unsure about keys.

In 1950 that amount of money on him was fairly significant. It would buy around $400 in goods, in today's world (2/2023).

Illinois had an eye institute for Veterans, in the 1950s, and World War II had a significant increase in dentistry in the military. Could he have had dental work, and eye care, done in/or after the military? If in the military, and a returning veteran, he could have even had injuries that required care from a Dentist, and/or Ophthalmologist.

A friend tried contacts, back in the 70s, and they were pretty expensive then ($2-300). The lenses were more rigid then, and uncomfortable for more than a few hours, so they switched back to traditional glasses. Contact lenses were used by very few until they became lighter and easier to fit, later in the 50s (otherwise, they were prescribed mostly for specific conditions, for short periods of use).

I also thought he may have traveled Rt66, into Chicago, and was heading homeward and camped in Penn.

A pic of 195-197 Avenue A, in the 40s.

| NYC Municipal Archives

nycma.lunaimaging.com

Here is a link to another poster NAMUS thoughts; PA - PA - Bedford, 'Mr. Bones' WhtMale 30-35, 585UMPA, 30-06 rifle, gold dental wk, camping equip, Oct'58

Could have been that someone he camped with/traveled with, killed him and left him, too.

2013 article: ‘Mr. Bones’ decoded?: Sleuth believes remains found in Bedford 55 years ago may be Ohio man

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

[Deleted]

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

Also,

These small towns and cities in western PA and NY were known for being way stations for organized criminal activities between NY, Philly, Chicago & Detroit.

I'm in Western New York. I know - There are a number of cases in and around the PA/NY border with unidentified bodies found with hands and heads missing.

The common working theory is that these are folks from NYC/Chicago that ran in tough circles.

Who knows.

At risk of repeating myself, as I'm sure some folks are tired of....

I still think magnum has this.

Logistics line up.
The rare height of the victim.
The wound location.
Time of death.
Weapon style with Ft Wayne connection.

The jacket books and camping equipment are the only oddities.
I have no idea how to explain those.
But I am going to say this. It was the late 50s. No dna, no unified fingerprint system. It's seems possible to me RF was cunning enough to create a subterfuge. He could have stole the jacket and or the back with the books.

I went ahead and searched for some newspaper articles that covered Charles Conner's case at the time. To be frank, I got over 500 results, so I think those who have stated how big of a deal this thing was back then aren't exaggerating whatsoever. That being said, some details jumped out at me from the articles I did read.

First, the witnesses involved were attacked by the defense team because of their being heavily intoxicated and the fact they fled the scene shortly after the shooting occurred. It should also be worth noting that in an appellate decision after the trial, it was determined that newspaper articles published before the trial contained details about the shooting which would have allowed the witnesses to rework their accounts of what happened to be more in sync with one another. In other words, their testimonies of what exactly happened may have been at least partially influenced by what they read in the papers.

I certainly think the blood evidence alone is proof they were all telling the truth in that they saw Conner get shot. However I think specific details about where in the head he was shot and the type of gun used have to be taken with a grain of salt. After all, I wouldn't blame an intoxicated, frightened individual fleeing for their life for misremembering an event they observed. It's possible the "Shot between the eyes" line was used for dramatic flare either when a witness was originally relaying the story to police or when news stories picked up on it, and by then it had stuck as the narrative of what happened.

Also of note, an expert who examined the crime scene claimed he was unable to locate any bullets although there was a bullet hole in the wall. He was of the opinion that the bullet had "keyholed" or tumbled through the air. The implication was that the bullet had passed through something hard, like a human head, before striking the wall. I guess this means there is no bullet or fragments to compare with the slug that killed Mr. Bones even if the PSP has it.. Forsythe was certainly a thorough individual to take the time to remove that thing from the scene.

I've linked the appellate decision here. I'm not sure if copyright law allows me to post the pictures of the articles. I can tell you that The Lima News article dated December 14, 1957 mentions witness credibility and the examination of the bullet hole can be found in either The Lima Citizen or The Lima News (can't remember which one) Dated November 27, 1957

Forsythe v. State, 12 Ohio Misc. 99 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Forsythe v. State, 12 Ohio Misc. 99, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

 

[Ozoner]

Ozoner

They introduced evidence at RFs trial, from a gas station / car wash in Cadiz Ohio.

Which is slightly more than half way to bedford PA.

Additionally....I don't remember the exact times here, so spot me some wiggle room here as I explain:

He was spotted in Cadiz Ohio, at a time that if you calculated the time to get from lima, to bedford and then backtrack to the gas station in cadiz. You had about 4-6 extra hours. (Assuming he left shortly after the murder)

Point being he DID drive, at a minimum, to cadiz Ohio. Where he was seen disposing of blood soaked rags. The owner saw him and wrote down the plate # on the door of a shed. They took the shed door and used it as evidence in the trial.

If you drew a straight line from lima to bedford, cadiz would be right on that line.

Also,

These small towns and cities in western PA and NY were known for being way stations for organized criminal activities between NY, Philly, Chicago & Detroit.

I'm in Western New York. I know - There are a number of cases in and around the PA/NY border with unidentified bodies found with hands and heads missing.

The common working theory is that these are folks from NYC/Chicago that ran in tough circles.

Who knows.

At risk of repeating myself, as I'm sure some folks are tired of....

I still think magnum has this.

Logistics line up.
The rare height of the victim.
The wound location.
Time of death.
Weapon style with Ft Wayne connection.

The jacket books and camping equipment are the only oddities.
I have no idea how to explain those.
But I am going to say this. It was the late 50s. No dna, no unified fingerprint system. It's seems possible to me RF was cunning enough to create a subterfuge. He could have stole the jacket and or the back with the books.

None of the things that you mentioned have any value as evidence that Mr. Bones is Charles Conner. I don't know where this theory came from, but it's pure fantasy, in my opinion.

Someone thinks that RF did such a lousy job of covering his tracks that he left witnesses to the crime, left witnesses who saw him parading around bloody, and managed to get himself convicted without a body—which was almost unheard of in that era—yet he was a master of subterfuge who staged an elaborate suicide scene in the next state complete with camping gear, expensive contact lenses—which no one of Conner's station could have afforded—and college textbooks?

We don't even know whether Conner and Mr. Bones died in the same year.

And the heights that are being used as evidence don't even match. Mr. Bones estimated height was 6'4", but Conner was only 6'2" It's possible that the estimate of Mr. Bones' height was wrong, but 6'2" is not an uncommon height for a man of northern European ancestry, so if the estimate was wrong, then the idea of Mr. Bones being of uncommon height goes away, too.

The theory that you outlined above is a classic example of trying to shoehorn the evidence into a particular theory instead of following the evidence where it leads. I can guarantee you that this theory is coming from a rank amateur with no investigative experience whatsoever. He'd better not quit his day job.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

None of the things that you mentioned have any value as evidence that Mr. Bones is Charles Conner. I don't know where this theory came from, but it's pure fantasy, in my opinion.

Someone thinks that RF did such a lousy job of covering his tracks that he left witnesses to the crime, left witnesses who saw him parading around bloody, and managed to get himself convicted without a body—which was almost unheard of in that era—yet he was a master of subterfuge who staged an elaborate suicide scene in the next state complete with camping gear, expensive contact lenses—which no one of Conner's station could have afforded—and college textbooks?

We don't even know whether Conner and Mr. Bones died in the same year.

And the heights that are being used as evidence don't even match. Mr. Bones estimated height was 6'4", but Conner was only 6'2" It's possible that the estimate of Mr. Bones' height was wrong, but 6'2" is not an uncommon height for a man of northern European ancestry, so if the estimate was wrong, then the idea of Mr. Bones being of uncommon height goes away, too.

The theory that you outlined above is a classic example of trying to shoehorn the evidence into a particular theory instead of following the evidence where it leads. I can guarantee you that this theory is coming from a rank amateur with no investigative experience whatsoever. He'd better not quit his day job.

Not to keep playing Devil's Advocate, but Forsythe did show signs of being a criminal mastermind in spite of his moments of ineptitude. First off, he managed to hide the body in such a manner that nobody's been able to find or positively identity it in over 65 years in spite of how sensational this case was. He was also smart enough to dispose of not only the gun but also the bullet that hit the wall. Idk about you all, but if I shot somebody in a fit of rage, I don't know if I'd be thinking clearly enough to go over and pry the bullet out of the wall just to make sure it couldn't be analyzed by ballistics experts if the gun or body were ever found. Then again I suppose the bullet could have passed through the wall and landed someplace else, but that doesn't seem like something investigators would have missed if that were so. A layout of the house might be nice to see if it could have landed outside. You also have to keep in mind Forsythe had about 24 hours to put together fabricated evidence to scatter around the body dump site. Personally I think it's a stretch, but it seems most other detailed theories have been exhausted by this point...

 

[Ozoner]

Not to keep playing Devil's Advocate, but Forsythe did show signs of being a criminal mastermind in spite of his moments of ineptitude. First off, he managed to hide the body in such a manner that nobody's been able to find or positively identity it in over 65 years in spite of how sensational this case was. He was also smart enough to dispose of not only the gun but also the bullet that hit the wall. Idk about you all, but if I shot somebody in a fit of rage, I don't know if I'd be thinking clearly enough to go over and pry the bullet out of the wall just to make sure it couldn't be analyzed by ballistics experts if the gun or body were ever found. Then again I suppose the bullet could have passed through the wall and landed someplace else, but that doesn't seem like something investigators would have missed if that were so. A layout of the house might be nice to see if it could have landed outside. You also have to keep in mind Forsythe had about 24 hours to put together fabricated evidence to scatter around the body dump site. Personally I think it's a stretch, but it seems most other detailed theories have been exhausted by this point...

It's more than a "stretch"—it's utter nonsense. I wish people would stop discussing it as if it's a legitimate possibility.

I'm not sure what you mean about it being the only detailed theory that hasn't been exhausted. Do you mean that even though you know it's bunk, there's nothing else to talk about?

A theory doesn't need to be detailed. A depressed man who was never reported missing—or one whose missing report has not survived— killed himself at his camp site in the woods. He didn't want to be identified, so he made a point of doing it far enough from home that he would not be easily identified. (Back in the 1950s, traveling a county or two away from where he lived would have been enough.)

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

It's more than a "stretch"—it's utter nonsense. I wish people would stop discussing it as if it's a legitimate possibility.

I'm not sure what you mean about it being the only detailed theory that hasn't been exhausted. Do you mean that even though you know it's bunk, there's nothing else to talk about?

A theory doesn't need to be detailed. A depressed man who was never reported missing—or one whose missing report has not survived— killed himself at his camp site in the woods. He didn't want to be identified, so he made a point of doing it far enough from home that he would not be easily identified. (Back in the 1950s, traveling a county or two away from where he lived would have been enough.)

As I previously stated, my only purpose in arguing this matter is to simply make the point that the possibility exists that these two cases are related. It's also worth mentioning I recently made a post stating how, like you said, it's far more likely that this guy is somebody whose name hasn't been mentioned whatsoever in the history of this case being on the public radar (i.e. Somerton Man, Boy in the Box, etc.). A DNA analysis of a sample from Mr. Bones ought to definitively answer that question if it is used to construct a family tree for him.

 

[Eddie99]

 

[John/Jane Doe]

4 Missing Person Exclusions:​

Missing Person / NamUs #MP32941Othel Johnson
Date of Last ContactJanuary 01, 1956
StateNM
CountyValencia

Missing Person / NamUs #MP33677Clarence Moore
Date of Last ContactJanuary 01, 1956
StateKS
CountyGeary

Missing Person / NamUs #MP19245Charles Conner
Date of Last ContactAugust 10, 1957
StateOH
CountyAllen

Missing Person / NamUs #MP15603Max Metcalf
Date of Last ContactOctober 07, 1958
StateWI
CountyGreen Lake

By any chance are the same exclusions still in this 2023?

 

[Caring1]

By any chance are the same exclusions still in this 2023?

Yes, still the same. Nothing new listed.

 

[TrustedTracker5097]

By any chance are the same exclusions still in this 2023?

AFAIK Othel Johnson is still missing. He does bear some resemblance to Mr. Bones in terms of height and hair color. He is a little older than Mr. Bones's estimated age, and it seems he went missing in New Mexico. There is little other information available. It seems unlikely he'd make it all the way to PA, and there doesn't seem to be any evidence he owned contact lenses. It also sounds like a victim of car accident from that period could have been him.


Clarence Moore was discovered to have been living in Canada until his death in 2017


Charles Conner is.. well... If you've been on this forum long enough, you probably know how we all feel about him lol.

Max Metcalf went missing on October 7, 1958, two days before Mr. Bones's body was found. It seems unlikely that he would have ended up in PA from Wisconsin during that time (considering his abandoned car was found the night he went missing only 35 miles from his house) let alone reduced to a near skeleton in that time frame.