PA PA - Betsy Aardsma, 22, murdered in Pattee Library, Penn State, 29 Nov 1969

[cbcrime]

Thank you - that gives a clear picture.

 

[cbcrime]

Trino - I agree. I think some people are capable of compartmentalizing their lives. This enables them to keep the secrets. Not me my SO gets everything - probably wishes sometimes I didn't talk so much!

 

[Trino]

I believe this was a thrill murder too. I said before that someone who murders someone else will ultimately do one of three things:

1) Kill again.
2) Tell someone about it.
3) Taunt.

I also believe it was the killer who left the shrine. Maybe he hasn't killed again but I have to believe that in his sick mind he feels he got away with the ultimate and is SO proud of it. So he has to taunt by leaving the shrine. He probably hasn't dared to tell anyone about it. Unless it's a situation where he is married and his wife may know. But if that's the case, he is probably an abuser and his wife is scared to death to say anything. That is a very real possibility because women who are with men they are afraid of may know about their past crimes or something horrible they have done but would NEVER tell because of their fear. I just can't imagine someone telling their wife they did something like that and her not going to the police about it unless he has abused her and she is very fearful of him.
[/QUOTE

1. He may have killed again, but LE just hasn't connected him yet.
2. I don't believe that all killers tell all.
3. I also don't know that all killers would taunt. They may be careless, however.

As to an abused wife, well, maybe, but neither the Green River killer or the BTK had abused wives. They were poster boys, went to work every day like millions of Americans, especially BTK.

 

[littlehorn]

Maybe it was a one-time deal. I suspect there are more than a few people who have done things they have not revealed to their families. Maybe it wasn't murder or something that could land them in jail, but it was still something dark they did not wish to share because it might cause problems. Wasn't there just a NY Congressman who had a secret 3 year old love child that his wife knew nothing about? Also, consider the BTK serial murderer whose wife knew nothing. Some people wear their life on their shoulders; others reveal nothing.

Just look at the guy who kept his daughters hidden in the basement and molested them for 24 years, and kept bringing their illegitimate inbreed kids up and claiming they were dropped off at the house. That Austrian dude. Sick.

 

[littlehorn]

Thank you - that gives a clear picture.

No problem. At some point I will make those pictures and analysis available on the website for everyone to see.

 

[littlehorn]

1. He may have killed again, but LE just hasn't connected him yet.
2. I don't believe that all killers tell all.
3. I also don't know that all killers would taunt. They may be careless, however.

As to an abused wife, well, maybe, but neither the Green River killer or the BTK had abused wives. They were poster boys, went to work every day like millions of Americans, especially BTK.

Again, who is to say that he hasn't told...but in a roundabout way that HE would know he was telling.

If he killed again, they haven't linked it to anyone...At least not anyone who's been caught and printed.

And like you say, I don't know that all killers would taunt, but this one seems to have done that.

Even Ted Bundy never hurt Stephanie Brooks or Liz Kendall physically -- he almost choked one of them once during sex, and he had a prediliction for anal sex that Brooks found off-putting...But he didn't abuse them in the traditional Stanley/Stella wife-beating sense of the word.

 

[MaryLiz]

I believe this was a thrill murder too. I said before that someone who murders someone else will ultimately do one of three things:

1) Kill again.
2) Tell someone about it.
3) Taunt.

I also believe it was the killer who left the shrine. Maybe he hasn't killed again but I have to believe that in his sick mind he feels he got away with the ultimate and is SO proud of it. So he has to taunt by leaving the shrine. He probably hasn't dared to tell anyone about it. Unless it's a situation where he is married and his wife may know. But if that's the case, he is probably an abuser and his wife is scared to death to say anything. That is a very real possibility because women who are with men they are afraid of may know about their past crimes or something horrible they have done but would NEVER tell because of their fear. I just can't imagine someone telling their wife they did something like that and her not going to the police about it unless he has abused her and she is very fearful of him.
[/QUOTE

1. He may have killed again, but LE just hasn't connected him yet.
2. I don't believe that all killers tell all.
3. I also don't know that all killers would taunt. They may be careless, however.

As to an abused wife, well, maybe, but neither the Green River killer or the BTK had abused wives. They were poster boys, went to work every day like millions of Americans, especially BTK.

I agree, but I meant to get across the point that killers will usually do ONE of those three things. You're right about the Green River killer though, he didn't do any of those things to my knowledge. But BTK taunted by sending letters to the police, newspaper and TV station. He also sent the driver's license of one of his victims to the police.

As far as talking about it, I just meant that IF a killer told someone, it would have to be somone he knew wouldn't tell the police. An abused wife would fit in that category...someone who was too scared to talk. That's the only reason I mentioned that.

I know I'm throwing some stuff out here that doesn't make sense but nothing about Betsy's murder makes sense.

I do think that whoever created the shrine is probably the killer. And now Derek told us today about the postcard in '79. That was probably sent by the same person who did the shrine in '94. The '99 shrine could have been a copycat but whoever was taunting with these actions did it on significant anniversary dates, 10 years, 25 years, 30 years, nothing that we know of in the off years where there may not have been as many anniversary articles or news reports. That probably doesn't mean anything but it just struck me earlier today.

 

[littlehorn]

I do think that whoever created the shrine is probably the killer. And now Derek told us today about the postcard in '79. That was probably sent by the same person who did the shrine in '94. The '99 shrine could have been a copycat but whoever was taunting with these actions did it on significant anniversary dates, 10 years, 25 years, 30 years, nothing that we know of in the off years where there may not have been as many anniversary articles or news reports. That probably doesn't mean anything but it just struck me earlier today.

I don't mean to assure you that the postcard is from the killer -- I suppose even the police can't say that for sure.

But it certainly makes sense, given the language of the card, and the fact that it was roughly within 6 months of the anniversary.

Again, it could always have been a former student or resident who just felt like pricking the police by reminding them of their failure.

I guess theoretically it could even have been the guy they investigated about the drugs, who was in the military -- I'm sure he would feel a bit of resentment about being investigated.

But I tend to believe it was from the killer or someone who knew what had happened intimately.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Talisman]

I do think that whoever created the shrine is probably the killer. And now Derek told us today about the postcard in '79. That was probably sent by the same person who did the shrine in '94. The '99 shrine could have been a copycat but whoever was taunting with these actions did it on significant anniversary dates, 10 years, 25 years, 30 years, nothing that we know of in the off years where there may not have been as many anniversary articles or news reports. That probably doesn't mean anything but it just struck me earlier today.

Kind of makes me wonder if the holidays play an important part in this guys 'wiring'. Betsy was killed during Thanksgiving. The postcard in '79 was sent during Easter. Maybe the holidays set him off.

Still I keep going back to the 25 year anniversary. It was important enough to him to get that shrine set up in the exact location - and within the hour of Betsy's death. Why wasn't the 10 year anniversary important enough to at least get the postcard sent in time?

just thinking out loud (again).

 

[littlehorn]

Kind of makes me wonder if the holidays play an important part in this guys 'wiring'. Betsy was killed during Thanksgiving. The postcard in '79 was sent during Easter. Maybe the holidays set him off.

Still I keep going back to the 25 year anniversary. It was important enough to him to get that shrine set up in the exact location - and within the hour of Betsy's death. Why wasn't the 10 year anniversary important enough to at least get the postcard sent in time?

I agree, it seems odd. My first question was "Why so early?" If it was the killer, that is. I guess theoretically it could have been someone with a beef against PSP or Betsy.

I'm assuming it was the killer but my calendar on the computer does not go back far enough to tell what day Easter was in 1979. It's almost 6 months EARLY to the 10 year anniversary.

Perhaps the killer was out of town visiting family or friends or on business around Easter, but knew he would NOT be out of town on Thanksgiving. So if mailing the postcard was always in his mind, or he knew he wouldn't be able to commemorate the event any other way, he may have decided on spur of the moment to mail the postcard despite its lack of date significance.

Just stabbing in the dark (no pun intended).

 

[Marilynilpa]

The one element of this case that strikes me more than anything else is the location where Betsy’s murder took place. The library obviously wasn’t an isolated spot, although perhaps the actual spot where Betsy was killed was somewhat secluded. So whoever did this was not overly concerned about getting caught. Any number of things could have happened that would have resulted in his detection. Someone could have walked past the shelves and seen the crime take place. Betsy could have screamed loud enough to attract attention. My point is that when you are in a public place, you generally have little control over what happens. If someone who disliked Betsy for some reason decided to kill her, there would have been other places much more convenient for them.

I tend to believe Betsy was either targeted by a serial killer, or killed at random - a crime of opportunity.

Serial killers often have victim “types” (Bundy is a prime example). Perhaps Betsy unfortunately was his “type”, and the killer followed her into the library and waited for a chance to strike. But there is something about this that doesn’t seem to fit. For the most part, serial killers get off on control, whether it’s mental, physical, sexual, disposal of corpse, or any combination. In Betsy’s case, it doesn’t appear the killer had all that much control over the situation. He stabbed her and fled. If this was the work of a serial killer, it seems more likely that he would have waited for Betsy to leave the library and then do whatever it was he wanted to do.

A thrill killer, on the other hand, seems to fit this situation perfectly. This type of killer feels intellectually superior to his victim and to law enforcement. They want to commit a perfect crime to prove their superiority. (Leopold and Loeb, for example). They often come from “good” families, are intelligent, and often appear to be above suspicion. In a large number of cases, a thrill killer will kill just one time, then relive it over and over to confirm to himself just how superior he is. An important aspect of a thrill killing is that often, the choice of victim is not important, anyone will do. What is more important is that the killer commits a murder and gets away with it.

So in this case, the profile of a thrill killer seems to fit more than the profile of a serial killer.


Sorry to ramble on so much, I hope this all makes a little sense!

 

[littlehorn]

The one element of this case that strikes me more than anything else is the location where Betsy’s murder took place. The library obviously wasn’t an isolated spot, although perhaps the actual spot where Betsy was killed was somewhat secluded. So whoever did this was not overly concerned about getting caught. Any number of things could have happened that would have resulted in his detection. Someone could have walked past the shelves and seen the crime take place. Betsy could have screamed loud enough to attract attention. My point is that when you are in a public place, you generally have little control over what happens. If someone who disliked Betsy for some reason decided to kill her, there would have been other places much more convenient for them.

I tend to believe Betsy was either targeted by a serial killer, or killed at random - a crime of opportunity.
A thrill killer, on the other hand, seems to fit this situation perfectly. This type of killer feels intellectually superior to his victim and to law enforcement. They want to commit a perfect crime to prove their superiority. (Leopold and Loeb, for example). They often come from “good” families, are intelligent, and often appear to be above suspicion. In a large number of cases, a thrill killer will kill just one time, then relive it over and over to confirm to himself just how superior he is. An important aspect of a thrill killing is that often, the choice of victim is not important, anyone will do. What is more important is that the killer commits a murder and gets away with it.

I agree with your assessment. It seems as though this person took an opportunity to commit a murder, ostensibly because he found a single female alone in the stacks. He may have staked out the area beforehand and waited until someone came by (the likely scenario) and if he was of the age where he could pose as a student no one would have thought anything of a studying male student in the core.

It's obvious that he has at least tried to reach out to police to taunt them, as well as perhaps revisited the murder site.

I agree with you that there is a total lack of control in this situation which tends away from serial killer possibility -- I wonder if perhaps, like an exhibitionist or someone who enjoys having sex in public, there is perhaps a type of killer who enjoys killing with the express risk of getting caught as part of the pleasure? Just a thought here about why he might hang out in the library as I'm sure there were many better opportunities to grab a female victim elsewhere on the campus.

 

[cbcrime]

The assessment of a thrill killer seems to fit. Isn't part of the thrill - the risk. And that may be how Betsy was chosen. He would chose the place and then find the opportunity. And she was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[Trino]

Perpetual Calendar
Just change the date at the bottom of the current one.

http://www.infoplease.com/calendar.php

 

[littlehorn]

The assessment of a thrill killer seems to fit. Isn't part of the thrill - the risk. And that may be how Betsy was chosen. He would chose the place and then find the opportunity. And she was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

The question then becomes, how to find this guy in a sea of people who have led otherwise normal lives?

Any suggestions? A thrill killer certainly makes it harder with this much distance between us and him.

 

[littlehorn]

Perpetual Calendar
Just change the date at the bottom of the current one.

http://www.infoplease.com/calendar.php

Thanks for that useful link! According to the perpetual calendar, April 28th (9 years, 6 months) was a Saturday. Easter is always fixed between March 21-April 25 so if the postcard arrived around Easter it could have been anywhere in that block of time.

The significance of Easter...I don't understand. I mean, I'm a Christian, so I understand the religious significance, but in this case -- a floating holiday with no particular relevance to the crime makes little sense to send a taunting postcard. Unless, again, the killer had opportunity to do so and just kind of felt like it.

 

[cbcrime]

I really don't know much about thrill killers. A random thrill killer is hard to catch. It seems easier if the thrill killer knew the victim(s). Then there is at least a connection and linkage to investigate. I did a quick search and in at least one case - a thrill killer was turned in by his father. I wonder if there are certain personality traits associated with a thrill killer?

I wish there was more information available from the police investigation. I wonder if anyone tried to insert themselves into the investigation. I wonder what is in that file that today would be looked at differently. That would be a big ahh hah. I was amazed at how delicate the investigator was in the news reports. Over stating that because they were talking to someone did not mean they were suspect. How much of that was the times and how much was treading softly because of the college?

Are any retired officers from the original investigation still alive? If anyone is - has anyone ever contacted them to see if they would talk. Don't know if that is even possible.

Since LE still has this as an open case - I doubt they would release any information. That is a shame - but even if they gave out info they would probably redact all names etc.

 

[littlehorn]

I really don't know much about thrill killers. A random thrill killer is hard to catch. It seems easier if the thrill killer knew the victim(s). Then there is at least a connection and linkage to investigate. I did a quick search and in at least one case - a thrill killer was turned in by his father. I wonder if there are certain personality traits associated with a thrill killer?

I wish there was more information available from the police investigation. I wonder if anyone tried to insert themselves into the investigation. I wonder what is in that file that today would be looked at differently. That would be a big ahh hah. I was amazed at how delicate the investigator was in the news reports. Over stating that because they were talking to someone did not mean they were suspect. How much of that was the times and how much was treading softly because of the college?

Are any retired officers from the original investigation still alive? If anyone is - has anyone ever contacted them to see if they would talk. Don't know if that is even possible.

Since LE still has this as an open case - I doubt they would release any information. That is a shame - but even if they gave out info they would probably redact all names etc.

I've been doing a lot of those things you mention -- trying to talk to retired officers, etc. There's a few of them still alive, some will talk, some won't. I've spoken with quite a few.

I know a couple of folks who have tried to insert themselves into the investigation, and I'm working on tracking them down and establishing their good or bad character as well as what their potential involvement could have been.

Since it is still open police won't allow anyone to view it, however, a lot is available just from talking to people. Besides, whatever information is in the file, police weren't able to do much with it, so I tend to believe either the answer is right there, and it will take an Aha!, or else they missed it entirely and the file is a waste of time.

I have a few good people yet to talk to...And I'm diligently tracking down everyone who ever claimed to know Betsy, attended or worked for the college at that time, down-talked her (the misogyny angle), etc.

 

[cbcrime]

Great job. I'm glad you're doing this and that some involved are still alive and willing to talk. Talking to people and putting this case back out to the public and making a place available for tips seems the way to go. Your probably right about the file. Either it was totally missed and no clue in the file - or some little tidbit is there.

Has the LE agency investigating this been territorial? IIRC you did get redacated files from them. I wonder if someone with profiling experience looked at those files. I think that is a tool that could give investigators direction. Basically that is what Vidocq could do. But some agencies are (and some investigators) more territorial than others.

Just keep up the good work.

 

[littlehorn]

Great job. I'm glad you're doing this and that some involved are still alive and willing to talk. Talking to people and putting this case back out to the public and making a place available for tips seems the way to go. Your probably right about the file. Either it was totally missed and no clue in the file - or some little tidbit is there.

Has the LE agency investigating this been territorial? IIRC you did get redacated files from them. I wonder if someone with profiling experience looked at those files. I think that is a tool that could give investigators direction. Basically that is what Vidocq could do. But some agencies are (and some investigators) more territorial than others.

Just keep up the good work.

The LE agency has been expectedly secretive about the file, but has not been especially territorial and seems willing to try new ideas or considering suspects that we give them.

No profile was ever produced for this case as it was prior to the serial killer/VICAP trend that began with Edmund Kemper's arrest in 1970-something.

The redacted files I received were from the FBI through the FOIA, not from the PA State Police. The FBI files relate to two suspects that the PSP asked them to check on but they are not particularly useful documents.