Pa. girl's parents challenge lung donor rule

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No, one can also get donor organs from those who are being kept alive on life support (whose organs then are also being kept alive); that, in fact, is what defines optimal donor organs (in addition to specific patient criteria).

No. Brain dead persons are being kept on live support until their organs can be collected.

"Most deceased organ donors are brain dead. They have suffered complete and irreversible loss of all brain function and are clinically and legally dead. Mechanical ventilation and medications keeps their heart beating and blood flowing to their organs."
http://www.organtransplants.org/understanding/death/
 
It would help this discussion if you could support your statements with links to facts, as posts #108 and #134 (with facts) refute what you're claiming.

She wasn't supposed to be on the list for adult lungs. That's the whole point of this discussion. Judge ruled for her to be added to the list.
It's in every story.
 
I really don't understand what the problem is with her getting adult lungs. Every time someone gets a transplant there is someone who doesn't get one, regardless of the age. When I first heard of this case her mom was saying she wanted the attention for future transplant children. In other words, her daughter could be the "guinea pig" is the way I interpreted it. If it would have been a success it would have changed everything.

Her daughter wasn't a "guinea pig." Adult into child donation has been done before. Obviously it hasn't been very successful, thus the reason for the rules that adults should get the lungs from other adults first.
 
Snipped for space and bold by me

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/05/sarah-murnaghan-lung-transplant-_n_3392862.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/judge-orders-girl-added-adult-lung-transplant-list-6C10213393
"It is not clear why everyone now waiting at the bottom of any transplant list would not seek relief in federal court," Caplan said. "Unless the judge has reason to think the lung distribution rules are simply a product of age discrimination and nothing more -- which seems highly unlikely -- then this becomes a troubling instance of non-doctors deciding who is the best candidate to receive a lung or other scarce medical resource."

Caplan is an ethicist who was raising understandable questions after the judge's order to suspend the "Under-12" rules until the June 14th hearing to consider the fairness of them as applied to children, in this case, Sarah. In that June 5th article, it also states, "The ruling, which grants a temporary restraining order, applies only to Sarah, although Baylson indicated that he would consider a similar move for another child in Sarah's circumstances, if a family presented the case in court." So, while this judge ruled on the particular case as brought to court, and that ruling applied specifically to Sarah, his intention was that the Under-12 issue be considered as applies to all children. With his court-orderd suspension, that meant that for those 10 days Sarah's placement on the list would be determined by severity of illness, not age. In Region 2, Sarah's region, 222 people are waiting for lung transplants, including six children 10 and younger. So theoretically, (though not practically speaking) 6 children could stand a chance at getting put onto the adult list of 216, where they would be placed still in accordance with urgency/degree of illness. In this article, Caplan was understandably concerned at this point in time (June 5) that that could undermine the existing transplant process with a series of court cases. But the decision was subsequently and fairly quickly made to allow for a review process for these kids on an individual case basis, so the fears he expressed are now put to rest. The rules as written weren't changed (kids under 12 still get put on a pediatric list by region), but the decision that was made did at least afford parents of Under-12s an option for an individual case "review" in the event their child becomes critical (and assuming they are even big enough to be able to use modified adult lungs). We're talking about hope for less than half a dozen kids, here--no promises, no rule changes unless the transplant review process deems the child a good candidate for an adult lung. And this review process is something parents can resort to without having to go to court like Sarah's parents did, thus appeasing those who feared multitudes of lawsuits rolling in after this case.

ETA: "Murnaghan's family 'did have a legitimate complaint' about the rule that limited her access to adult lungs, said ethicist Arthur Caplan, of the NYU Langone Medical Center in New York." http://www.myfoxmemphis.com/story/22584902/girl-who-took-on-transplant-rules-gets-new-lungs

At first the rule was just for this one little girl, and with the cameras rolling and the public thinking that it sounds cruel to deny a transplant to a child (without thinking about why those rules are in place), it definitely gives the appearance, IMO, of using the media to get the rules changed just for you.

Now the OPTN has voted to create a special review process for children under 12, and I don't have a problem with that, as that means the rule is not just for one or two people and anyone who couldn't get the media on their side is just out of luck. If there's a review process that is applied evenly, that's okay in my book. But I did not think it was fair for a judge to be making a medical decision. It was based on the media and certain politicians trying to make it look like children don't usually receive adult-sized lungs because of death panels or discrimination, when it is actually a medically-based decision that depends on a lot of factors.

But isn't that historically the way things have always changed (hopefully for the better)? One landmark case paves the way for positive change for a multitude of those coming after. I'm not going to fault any parent pushing for change for their own kid if the problem is an issue of unfairness which is also negatively impacting other kids. Sure their immediate concern is their kid--but that doesn't mean the decision itself is good for only their kid. JMO, but I'm not so sure that they "got the media on their side," so much as they raised an awareness that few outside of this system know about. I know I didn't know exactly how this worked until reading it myself this past week, and I'm all for the review process approach on an individual basis for these kids (none of whom, I might add, have brought on their own illness as a result of their own bad choices). If older children are transferred to an adult list by the review team b/c they are considered by their doctors to be a candidate for adult lung transplant, AND if they are at the top of that new list due to being the sickest--which is what this is about--then, yes, I say give them the chance.
 
No. Brain dead persons are being kept on live support until their organs can be collected.

"Most deceased organ donors are brain dead. They have suffered complete and irreversible loss of all brain function and are clinically and legally dead. Mechanical ventilation and medications keeps their heart beating and blood flowing to their organs."
http://www.organtransplants.org/understanding/death/

I think we're dealing with a semantic issue here. All donated organs come from irreversibly dead people (one hopes!). The site quoted upthread with the transplant rules actually states that brain-dead donors who've been kept on life-support provide the most optimal organs for transplant, due to no interruption in blood/oxygen flow.
 
She wasn't supposed to be on the list for adult lungs. That's the whole point of this discussion. Judge ruled for her to be added to the list.
It's in every story.

Yes, and that was also the point of the lawsuit, as doctors said they felt adult lungs would be an option for her. I think the outcome of this suit is actually positive for the handful of children (especially older ones) who could benefit from this now-available review process. No promises made and no changes or rewrites, but the comparatively tiny number of pediatric cases can be individually considered if the child becomes critical and medical personnel say the adult lung option is viable.

PS. It already allowed for another child, a boy, to be put on the adult list, at the same time Sarah got on the list. Got the link somewhere; can supply it if needed.
 
Young lung transplant patient Sarah Murnaghan struggling to breathe

“It’s been an excruciating day,” Janet Ruddock Murnaghan wrote. “We extubated Sarah and her body could not handle the reduced support. It was impossibly painful watching her struggle to breath and panic. She was sedated and re-intubated.

“Her doctors assure us that this does not change her long-term outcome but just means she needs more time to regain her strength,” Murnaghan continued.


When will the team of doctors release a statement?

~jmo~
 
Girl who got new lungs in Pa. has more surgery

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-07-02-18-17-47

A 10-year-old girl who had two adult-lung transplants after her parents sued to change national rules regarding organ donations underwent surgery Tuesday to repair her diaphragm.

The article is a little misleading- stating that she had to remain on 'a ventilator' between the two transplants. In fact she was on ECMO (extra corporeal membrane oxygenation) between the two. ECMO is the equivalent of the heart-lung bypass persons are placed on during open heart surgery. It not only oxygenates but also circulates the blood- taking over the function of the heart AND the lungs. It is reserved for the 'actively dying' in my world- the ultimate last ditch attempt at survival. (I care for ECMO patients in my work)
 
The article is a little misleading- stating that she had to remain on 'a ventilator' between the two transplants. In fact she was on ECMO (extra corporeal membrane oxygenation) between the two. ECMO is the equivalent of the heart-lung bypass persons are placed on during open heart surgery. It not only oxygenates but also circulates the blood- taking over the function of the heart AND the lungs. It is reserved for the 'actively dying' in my world- the ultimate last ditch attempt at survival. (I care for ECMO patients in my work)

BBM
Had read earlier about ECMO
but had not understood how/when it is used.

Your explanation clarifies it.
Thx agn.
 
I should also add this: with certain modules added on, ECMO ALSO can serve as a semi-dialysis unit as well. So it can function as heart, lungs AND kidneys. Not sure if this is the case here, but thought I'd put it out there.
 
Folks, please remember tos when posting and do not personalize posts. It is possible to discuss the elements of this case without bashing the family as well. :nono:

you

Yes if you have that word in your post you are personalizing your post and not discussing the topic but taking it beyond into the realm of personalization. Don't do it. Please and thank you.:seeya:
 
I continue to be astounded by the fact that every single bit of information comes through the mother, not the doctors. That is so strange......(and yes, I know all about HIPAA- 99% of families in these high profile cases grant permission for the doctors to update the media)
 
I continue to be astounded by the fact that every single bit of information comes through the mother, not the doctors. That is so strange......(and yes, I know all about HIPAA- 99% of families in these high profile cases grant permission for the doctors to update the media)

I'd imagine the doctors want to remain out of the fray. Lung transplants themselves aren't such a big thing that they warrant a press conference so any press may bring up the transplant lists.
 
I'd imagine the doctors want to remain out of the fray. Lung transplants themselves aren't such a big thing that they warrant a press conference so any press may bring up the transplant lists.

I agree about staying out of the conflict, but you'd think they would release a statement. It seems to me that mom has not given permission for this. I think SHE prefers to 'filter' (spin?) what the press gets?
 
Update: pneumonia in one lung.......

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/...acts-pneumonia-in-right-lung/?test=latestnews

But aspiration pneumonia seems slightly unlikely if she has a cuffed ET tube (sorry, just the nurse thinking aloud...) But again, everything is filtered through the mother- and who knows if they ran this past her as a possible scenario (a laundry list of pneumonia causes) or if she aspirated during the brief time she was extubated. Hmmm........
 

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