PA - infant Leon Katz murdered, twin injured, allegedly by babysitter, Pittsburgh- June 24, 2024

[Tortoise]

I’ll be interested to hear what you think. It’s interesting to me as well that Ari’s injuries weren’t flagged as abuse until Leon was injured.

Since the prosecution is using the suspected abuse of Ari as a factor to qualify her for the death penalty, it seems a little iffy. I think a good defense attorney could use the fact that medical staff didn’t initially raise the possibility of child abuse based on Ari’s symptoms to create reasonable doubt.

We really don't know what had been flagged at what time, so it's not possible to cite it as fact until we get a timeline. They were still at the hospital at around 11.30pm ish which was five hours later, and so it's not as if we can say for sure that things were just assumed to be non-suspicious. He hadn't been discharged yet, because they were all still there for later interviews. It's possible conversations were still being had, with the parents, and possibly also between doctors behind closed doors, when the emergency with Leon came through.

 

[NCWatcher]

I don’t understand what this would imply. Two incidents are the minimum to establish a pattern. They wouldn’t have been able to identify a trend after seeing only one injury.

No, one needs two cases to see a linear trend. More to see anything that's not linear. But in suspecting child abuse in an ER it's not clear they'd be looking for a trend. Mandated reporters don't need to see trends nor should they wait to see trends before reporting. Doctors are mandated reporters. A doctor saw Ari first. Either there was evidence to suspect he was abused or there was not. Certainly a doctor has been quoted (now) saying, in effect, it was obviously abuse based on the details of the injury. But it's not clear he thought that earlier as it's not clear when Ari's injury was reported. Yet no trend is required to start an abuse investigation if a single case appears it could be abuse. However, to me it doesn't appear that's what happened. The quoted interviews with the parents include mention of Leon's situation so they happened after Leon was injured. Using Leon to prove Ari was abused and then using Ari's abuse to say the death penalty is warranted for Leon seems questionable IF that's what is happening. I admit there's lots we don't know but that applies to the opposite argument too. That Ari's case was treated as an abuse case from the get-go. I don't think there's any way we can know that now for sure.
MOO

 

[IDK]

We really don't know what had been flagged at what time, so it's not possible to cite it as fact until we get a timeline. They were still at the hospital at around 11.30pm ish which was five hours later, and so it's not as if we can say for sure that things were just assumed to be non-suspicious. He hadn't been discharged yet, because they were all still there for later interviews. It's possible conversations were still being had, with the parents, and possibly also between doctors behind closed doors, when the emergency with Leon came through.

That’s a good point and I guess the medical staff may have still been running tests, and hopefully starting to conduct an investigation.

I guess the proof will be in their documentation and whether they had initiated a call to Child Protective Services yet based on Ari’s injuries. At some point that information will be available through the discovery process.( editing to add — available to the legal team that is) All IMO.

 

[SMK777]

Just reflecting: My own feeling is that one of two extremes is the truth:
1. She intentionally hurt Ari, and then Leon for whatever reason (psychotic from ingesting a drug, or was an unknown ticking time bomb that her friends were unaware of).
OR
2. Did not hurt Ari and honestly pointed out the injuries she saw; hurt Leon by accident. ( If true, she’s extraordinarily unlucky).
Only a lot more information will reveal which.
MOO

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Nancy Grace just covered this story.

 

[Curious Me]

... snipped to reply

^^^ This video shows the Probably Cause Affidavit which is more official information, but is still missing crucial details at that point. (MOO, it's like a "he said she said" timeline of initial events.)​

A doctor saw Ari first. Either there was evidence to suspect he was abused or there was not. Certainly a doctor has been quoted (now) saying, in effect, it was obviously abuse based on the details of the injury. But it's not clear he thought that earlier as it's not clear when Ari's injury was reported.

Reading the above, it seems to me the interview of the parents occurred after NV had called 911 about Leon and Leon had been taken to the hospital. It's not clear at all to me the detectives were called based on Ari's injury prior to being notified of Leon's. So as I've said before, it appears to me the medical staff's view of Ari's injury changed after Leon was injured. I'll watch the video when I get home but the screen shot from the PCA seems to say that. So I'm still not sure there was an interview of the parents early on (except that any doctor would ask what happened.)
MOO

It's difficult to determine the timing of all this reporting, but both injuries of twins were under the diagnosis supervision of that Dr. Wolford of the Child Advocacy Center; therefore, to say both means it was after Leon suffered critical head injuries.

I understand what you're saying. I would think initially other doctors were assigned to each twin, and later these suspicions were brought to Dr. Wolford's attention to report it as possible abuse. Was AK's injuries at first considered abuse? That's the question.

MOO, I think the injuries reported by the individual doctors of each twin will stand on their own and must be proved on their own that it was or wasn't abuse when this all goes to trial. If they released AK & the parents to go home without suspicions then... all that's going to come out in court hopefully. There's two circumstantial events being linked together, but to me must be looked at completely separately.

My own side note thoughts-- the twin's mother was sleeping in the home when AK's injuries supposedly happened. Like other's have said, that baby must've been screaming if it was being tortured. It makes me wonder if those injuries were happening before, and maybe baby was extremely fussy, even scratching it's face, but no one realized something else was causing those injuries until NV changed that diaper.

MOO, yes, very aggressively pursuing the Death Penalty, the Prosecution has kept both twin's injuries lumped them together. I guess they're going to try to make one previous twin's injuries into NV's history of torturing babies, or something. I bet her Defense Attorney will want to keep them separate events. They may offer her a Plea Deal, but with her capable attorney there's always a possibility charges could be reduced or even thrown out. I want to hear what the defense's experts have to say about AK's injuries and what else could've caused them. ALL MOO
​

Press on each and + to enlarge.

 

[acutename]

^^^ This video shows the Probably Cause Affidavit which is more official information, but is still missing crucial details at that point. (MOO, it's like a "he said she said" timeline of initial events.)



It's difficult to determine the timing of all this reporting, but both injuries of twins were under the diagnosis supervision of that Dr. Wolford of the Child Advocacy Center; therefore, to say both means it was after Leon suffered critical head injuries.

I understand what you're saying. I would think initially other doctors were assigned to each twin, and later these suspicions were brought to Dr. Wolford's attention to report it as possible abuse. Was AK's injuries at first considered abuse? That's the question.

MOO, I think the injuries reported by the individual doctors of each twin will stand on their own and must be proved on their own that it was or wasn't abuse when this all goes to trial. If they released AK & the parents to go home without suspicions then... all that's going to come out in court hopefully. There's two circumstantial events being linked together, but to me must be looked at completely separately.

My own side note thoughts-- the twin's mother was sleeping in the home when AK's injuries supposedly happened. Like other's have said, that baby must've been screaming if it was being tortured. It makes me wonder if those injuries were happening before, and maybe baby was extremely fussy, even scratching it's face, but no one realized something else was causing those injuries until NV changed that diaper.

MOO, yes, very aggressively pursuing the Death Penalty, the Prosecution has kept both twin's injuries lumped them together. I guess they're going to try to make one previous twin's injuries into NV's history of torturing babies, or something. I bet her Defense Attorney will want to keep them separate events. They may offer her a Plea Deal, but with her capable attorney there's always a possibility charges could be reduced or even thrown out. I want to hear what the defense's experts have to say about AK's injuries and what else could've caused them. ALL MOO
​

Press on each and + to enlarge.
View attachment 528069

View attachment 528074

View attachment 528076

how would Ari get facial scratches? perpetrator's finger nails? jewelry?

 

[IDK]

how would Ari get facial scratches? perpetrator's finger nails? jewelry?

I’m not the person you’re responding to, but it’s not unusual for little babies to scratch their own faces. They even make little mitts that I’ve seen parents use to prevent it— they sell them on Amazon, not sure I can post a link.

There are many article on line about this, for example:

“Why is my baby scratching their face?​

There are numerous reasons why your baby’s face may end up with a few scratches. Some of the most common include:

Uncontrolled movements​

Babies don’t have full control over their bodies when they’re first born. Instead, reflexes control many of their movements. One common newborn reflex is an involuntary startle response called the Moro reflex.

As a result of this reflex, when babies are startled by loud noises, sudden movements, or life in general, they typically react by arching their back and extending their arms and legs, followed by curling in again. Their hands may jerk toward their face, and they may accidentally scratch
themselves.”

“Sound awful? Fear not, this won’t last forever! Between 3 and 6 months of age, you’ll probably notice that your baby no longer appears to have the Moro reflex. You’ll know this reflex is going away when your baby’s movements become more controlled and less jerky”

Baby Scratching Face: Why Does It Happen and Can You Prevent It?

You look at your baby and see it: a bright red scratch on their face. Learn about why this happens and what you can do about your baby scratching their face.

www.healthline.com

 

[Curious Me]

how would Ari get facial scratches? perpetrator's finger nails? jewelry?...

I’m not the person you’re responding to, but it’s not unusual for little babies to scratch their own faces. They even make little mitts that I’ve seen parents use to prevent it— they sell them on Amazon, not sure I can post a link....

Thanks @IDK. You even mentioned those little baby hand mitts.

Yes, @acutename, babies that age are able to scratch their faces. Please note though, that at that age babies aren't able to reach their genital area. Their arms are not long enough. A crying, frustrated baby, say being fussy maybe from something bothering them or not, would definitely be waving their hands around towards their face, possibly getting scratches.

We were not there. We can't figure out all of what was going on during the family outing that day with NV, or later. I have a million questions.

What kind of diapers were they using? A diaper service or disposables? (Probably not doing the cloth diapers themselves like some of us did back in historic times.) Look, they find little metal particles even in recalled meat & food products, so...

I still say it's a remote possibility, but what's to say something wasn't irritating AK in his diaper all afternoon, or maybe something poking and rubbing hidden in his bedding. Some odd occurrence drs. might not even think about before wrongfully determining abuse even torture. I realize something happened to both twins with NV around. Just trying to keep an open mind to other reasons.​

 

[SMK777]

Thanks @IDK. You even mentioned those little baby hand mitts.

Yes, @acutename, babies that age are able to scratch their faces. Please note though, that at that age babies aren't able to reach their genital area. Their arms are not long enough. A crying, frustrated baby, say being fussy maybe from something bothering them or not, would definitely be waving their hands around towards their face, possibly getting scratches.

We were not there. We can't figure out all of what was going on during the family outing that day with NV, or later. I have a million questions.

What kind of diapers were they using? A diaper service or disposables? (Probably not doing the cloth diapers themselves like some of us did back in historic times.) Look, they find little metal particles even in recalled meat & food products, so...

I still say it's a remote possibility, but what's to say something wasn't irritating AK in his diaper all afternoon, or maybe something poking and rubbing hidden in his bedding. Some odd occurrence drs. might not even think about before wrongfully determining abuse even torture. I realize something happened to both twins with NV around. Just trying to keep an open mind to other reasons.​

I agree, every possibility must be considered, and presumably the defense will be probing into all of these possible scenarios.

 

[Occam's Zebra]

I do wish the title of this thread didn't already convict NV. "Babysitter accused of murdering one twin and injuring another" would be more accurate, and not a rush to judgment. Though NV wasn't babysitting AK when she alerted the father to his injuries, as both parents were in the home.

 

[SMK777]

I do wish the title of this thread didn't already convict NV. "Babysitter accused of murdering one twin and injuring another" would be more accurate, and not a rush to judgment. Though NV wasn't babysitting AK when she alerted the father to his injuries, as both parents were in the home.

Right, at this point in time presumption of innocence is part of due process, and the crimes are alleged, not factual.

 

[abyquinn]

RSBM
BBM
I wonder if a 6.5 week old infant would have enough control over his hands and arms to scratch his genitals repeatedly, rather than once, accidentally so to speak. Don't smaller babies flail around with their hands and arms quite a lot and often not reach their 'target'? Genuine question for parents /grandparents of infants or those who remember well what their babies managed at that kind of age.

MOO

I recently saw several clips of new born infants pulling their own hair. They grabbed and locked on, the more it hurt the harder they pulled. They weren’t able to open their own fist. The adults in the videos had to pry the babies fingers open to release their grip. The babies didn’t realize they were causing themselves pain, they just reacted to it by closing their eyes & their fists tightly and screaming.

I think theoretically Ari could’ve caused the injury to himself. Babies really can’t grab things intentionally, at 6 weeks, they have no control of where their hands land until about 3 months old. Say he grabbed ahold of himself during a bath or diaper change, It would only take a few seconds to cause the bruise, redness & swelling. IDK if a 6 week old baby would react the same as a new born or if it would be easier to release the grip. Regardless if this was inflicted on him or if he did it to himself he would’ve screamed.

He would’ve only needed one sharp edge on a fingernail to cause the scratches. He also had scratches on his face that NV said happened when he was flailing going into his car seat. Babies fingernails seem to grow really fast & even short nails are like little daggers.

 

[Mack the Knife]

Why is NV getting labeled by the Daily Mail and now Nancy Grace as “glamorous”?

Is it just because she’s reasonably pretty and not poor? I’ve only been keeping up via this thread, but it doesn’t look like she has been living an extravagant lifestyle. Or if she has, it doesn’t look like that has any relevance to her being in the Katz home and the crimes she is alleged to have committed. Is it just trashy media scrambling for a narrative in the absence of much facts about the case?

 

[shesfixingherhair]

Why is NV getting labeled by the Daily Mail and now Nancy Grace as “glamorous”?

Is it just because she’s reasonably pretty and not poor? I’ve only been keeping up via this thread, but it doesn’t look like she has been living an extravagant lifestyle. Or if she has, it doesn’t look like that has any relevance to her being in the Katz home and the crimes she is alleged to have committed. Is it just trashy media scrambling for a narrative in the absence of much facts about the case?

I felt bad about wondering this every time I saw it in an article. She’s a nice enough looking girl, but “glamorous” wouldn’t have been the first word I came up with. I think maybe people are thinking of a stereotypical “nerd” when they read “PhD candidate” and are surprised to see NV doesn’t look like a Coke-bottle glasses caricature? I’d really hoped we were past that by now but I can’t think of any other explanation.

 

[beavt]

RSBM.

I had also wondered if perhaps the babies had been circumcised. If so, when? Could there have been an infection or irritation that caused Ari discomfort to where he wiggled, scratched, or otherwise caused excessive irritation? Here's a page from the Seattle Children's Hospital which lists some possible problems after circumcision in infants. It includes this info:



Could the scab coming off have caused bleeding & irritation? I would assume the doctor at the ER would know this but public details have been so slim in this case that I'm just trying to think of possible alternatives.

Again, I'm not giving NV a pass. But, I think there are possibilities that have not been discounted or covered by definitive public information so I'm just musing. I guess the best hope at this point is that Leon's death was accidental & that Ari's injuries were misdiagnosed as "abuse" vs. a medical reason. Still, an infant is dead, his parents are grieving, and the sibling will be forever altered.

It's horrible. And perplexing.

All supposition on my part & MOO.

Or had recently had a bris performed. Typically a bris is performed on the eighth day of life, unless there are medical concerns in which case it would be performed at a later date. As they were born premature, that would have probably delayed a bris being done.

 

[beavt]

Sorry that I missed your earlier post when I recently asked about this.

Since twins may be more underweight or perhaps need extra care a little longer, is it possible a Bris could be performed later than the 8th day?

Yes, definitely.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

I think theoretically Ari could’ve caused the injury to himself.

Could he have caused bruising, too, though? And all of that with the person who last put his diaper on not noticing what occured? They would have been with him the entire time.

JMO: I think the medical team could probably tell the difference between something an infant can do to himself and something that requires much more outside force. I also think if he'd recently been circumsized, and the symptoms were possibly from that, the doctors and prosecutors would know.

 

[SMK777]

Could he have caused bruising, too, though? And all of that with the person who last put his diaper on not noticing what occured? They would have been with him the entire time.

JMO: I think the medical team could probably tell the difference between something an infant can do to himself and something that requires much more outside force. I also think if he'd recently been circumsized, and the symptoms were possibly from that, the doctors and prosecutors would know.

True enough. I do take into consideration what the defense attorney said, though: That since 2001 there has been an increased tendency and marked bias towards physicians viewing injuries as stemming from child abuse, and that there have been cases where they’ve been clearly proven wrong. It may or may not be true in this case, but it gave me stern pause, with other information lacking.

 

[Curious Me]

...As they were born premature, that would have probably delayed a bris being done.

I must've missed hearing they were born prematurely. Were they? If you can find a link to that I'd really appreciate it. They sure look like they were thriving in the photos.

I think everyone is now assuming the family follows a certain faith just because of their last name, but we don't know their religion, or if and when the twins might've been circumcised.

Granted, I was one to bring the question of circumcision and healing up early on. I told a story of my own son having to have a correction circumcision, a little surgery, and then having to avoid any infection as he went through the re-healing process. This was after about a month and being all healed from the first, but it was uneven and needed to be corrected. (Don't tell him I shared this story.)

I think AK had more than just genital injuries. So, it probably had nothing to do with circumcision, after all, but it's wise to consider other reasons for those injuries. I certainly hope the doctors consider other reasons and not just jump to it being abuse. I imagine they took photos that could be presented in the courtroom. It will be argued is what I anticipate. After all, this is headed towards a DP trial.

This is all MOO and my own thoughts. ​