PA - infant Leon Katz murdered, twin injured, allegedly by babysitter, Pittsburgh- June 24, 2024

[Susikatze]

Or had recently had a bris performed. Typically a bris is performed on the eighth day of life, unless there are medical concerns in which case it would be performed at a later date. As they were born premature, that would have probably delayed a bris being done.

Yes of course in premature babies and also in cases of jaundice or other health issues the bris is delayed. However this is a teeny tiny wound that closes up very quickly and heals with good care within a few days. And I am sure LE can tell a bris scar (it is a professionally done procedure) from some random genital injury.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

True enough. I do take into consideration what the defense attorney said, though: That since 2001 there has been an increased tendency and marked bias towards physicians viewing injuries as stemming from child abuse, and that there have been cases where they’ve been clearly proven wrong. It may or may not be true in this case, but it gave me stern pause, with other information lacking.

I understand. And imagine if things aren't "what they seem" in this case. I need to remind myself that we have not heard the case laid out and have not heard from the defense.

 

[Curious Me]

NV goes to school and lives in San Diego. However, the local news in San Diego hasn't mentioned this case much, but I happen to catch a fast report on this case last night on ABC10. They didn't mention the one twin's genital injuries at all. They led in with how NV went to PA and is now being accused of killing her friend's baby, and being charged in a DP case. It sounded so conclusive. It's shocking she is made to sound guilty already.

It just seems bizarre that NV travels to PA and is only there several days, and not only was there a death, but she's being accused of torturing the other too. Before that, NV seemed as though her main interest were her studies and career goals. Hard for me to believe she did this intentionally. Really curious about how this was a close friendship and why NV went there for a trip.

Local news announced it too conclusive, IMO. It's not like I haven't followed surprising outcome cases before. I'm remined of a case I followed where it did turn out to be the "frenemy". The and baby went missing, and the father gave weird interviews where many thought he was guilty and he wasn't. (See, jumping to conclusions isn't right.) It turned out to be the mother's close friend! The friend killed the mother and took the baby for her own.

A "frenemy" case:

Woman accused of strangling Heidi Broussard makes appearance in court

Magen Fieramusca, 35, appeared via Zoom from the Travis County Jail in Austin Monday for a hearing on charges of capital murder, tampering with a corpse and two counts of kidnapping.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[AnyNameIWish]

These are the possibilities, imo:

The injuries/trauma of:

● A caused by NV / L caused by NV

● A caused by NV/ L not caused by NV at all

● A not caused by NV at all / L caused by NV

● A not caused by NV at all/ L not caused by NV at all

I find myself believing in extremes. Either NV is 100% blameless for both, OR she 100% caused both. I can't see a world where it would be one but not the other.

We have no actual exact TIMEline other than at 11:30pm on 6/15 Saturday NV called 911. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

On 6/15 during the day it has been said

- The couple and NV spent the day together and later NV went to the grocery store alone. Sometime later mom went to take a nap. NV points out to dad the injury to A's body. Dad waits until mom wakes up, and the parents plus A go to a hospital.

Do we think L was taken to the same ER where A was being examined? It's Pittsburgh so there are plenty medical facilities to choose from.

 

[teeby]

I still think we need more information. It is uncommon for 6 week old babies to roll, but it is not impossible; 2 of my 4 children had rolled by six weeks. Thin babies are more likely to roll early as their heads are disproportionately heavy, and twins are more likely to be thin.

That said, I don't find the fact that the parents were able to take the first baby home proof that no one suspected the first injury was inflicted; I am aware of a case where a baby presented to the hospital with injuries that couldn't possibly have been self-inflicted, and the hospital did call CPS. The parents were allowed to take the baby home once he was better and CPS came out to visit the home after that. Eventually they determined that the baby had been injured accidentally in play and not by abuse. It's only the more extreme/obvious cases where they remove the children from the home while they investigate.

 

[Curious Me]

When this first hit the news, we all thought she was left babysitting two twins. I was thinking frustrated lashing out from sitter. Now, it seems like she wasn't even alone with AK, with the mother taking a nap in the same house. I don't know where the father actually was, but NV sent him a photo of AK's injured genital area. It's just that she wasn't alone caring for AK for any length of time you'd think to be "torturing" him.

(I guess if it were her sick intention it'd be possible, but wow wth if she really had that intention like she's being accused of it's absolutely bizarre in that short a time frame.)

Rough timeline-- The parents, twins, and NV were on an outing during that day. NV was at a grocery store alone after that. Then, she's back at their place while the Mom slept what around 4-6 p.m.? Parents rush off to hospital with him by 6:30. So, she wasn't alone with AK hardly at all before the genital injuries were discovered. Plus tortured babies must scream and shriek super loud. I'm just having a hard time imagining it. All MOO here.​

 

[abr]

True enough. I do take into consideration what the defense attorney said, though: That since 2001 there has been an increased tendency and marked bias towards physicians viewing injuries as stemming from child abuse, and that there have been cases where they’ve been clearly proven wrong. It may or may not be true in this case, but it gave me stern pause, with other information lacking.

Defense attorneys can say anything. A baby's skull does not fracture as easily as he is making out. Something had to be done to the baby for it to happen.

jmo

 

[Curious Me]

Defense attorneys can say anything. A baby's skull does not fracture as easily as he is making out. Something had to be done to the baby for it to happen. jmo

Something did happen to the baby, no one is disputing that. NV said the baby fell. Drs. and Prosecution declared it abuse. MOO, both sides can say anything, but thankfully all information will be gone over with a fine tooth comb in court and jurors will decide. The defense will have to present their own expert doctor(s).

MOO, this prior post with the article bears repeating over and over because there has been misdiagnosed child abuse cases that have ruined lives. Imagine if the expert doctors and prosecution are wrong? This is now a very serious DP case.
​

Lawyers to seek death penalty for student accused of killing friend’s baby ​

Mark Freeman, a Pennsylvania-based lawyer who has litigated 20 cases of shaken baby syndrome, said that the decision to charge Virzi did not surprise him, because health professionals and forensic experts were now so quick to see child abuse.

“The idea that an injury is likely the result of child abuse is deeply embedded — it’s been taught for so long,” he said. “And a lot of doctors are not familiar with the newer literature which shows how unlikely it is that such injuries are from deliberate acts.”

[...]

Freeman said he would immediately seek a second opinion on the verdict of a skull fracture, saying that he very often found the initial conclusion was wrong.

All My Own Thoughts and Opinions​

 

[Curious Me]

Hope this is an allowable source. Here's another article I think contains valuable info about sometimes the child abuse diagnosis is wrong. I especially learned some new stuff towards the bottom where it talks about the expert child abuse doctors' contracts, grants, & income motivators that may be at play at times in over diagnosis of abuse.

When the Misdiagnosis Is Child Abuse

Some pediatricians are trained to determine whether kids’ injuries are accidental. Their assessments can be subjective—but they’re often accepted as fact. And when they’re wrong, parents can needlessly end up in jail.

www.theatlantic.com

​

 

[SMK777]

When this first hit the news, we all thought she was left babysitting two twins. I was thinking frustrated lashing out from sitter. Now, it seems like she wasn't even alone with AK, with the mother taking a nap in the same house. I don't know where the father actually was, but NV sent him a photo of AK's injured genital area. It's just that she wasn't alone caring for AK for any length of time you'd think to be "torturing" him.

(I guess if it were her sick intention it'd be possible, but wow wth if she really had that intention like she's being accused of it's absolutely bizarre in that short a time frame.)

Rough timeline-- The parents, twins, and NV were on an outing during that day. NV was at a grocery store alone after that. Then, she's back at their place while the Mom slept what around 4-6 p.m.? Parents rush off to hospital with him by 6:30. So, she wasn't alone with AK hardly at all before the genital injuries were discovered. Plus tortured babies must scream and shriek super loud. I'm just having a hard time imagining it. All MOO here.​

I’m having a difficult time picturing it, as well.

 

[SMK777]

Hope this is an allowable source. Here's another article I think contains valuable info about sometimes the child abuse diagnosis is wrong. I especially learned some new stuff towards the bottom where it talks about the expert child abuse doctors' contracts, grants, & income motivators that may be at play at times in over diagnosis of abuse.

When the Misdiagnosis Is Child Abuse

Some pediatricians are trained to determine whether kids’ injuries are accidental. Their assessments can be subjective—but they’re often accepted as fact. And when they’re wrong, parents can needlessly end up in jail.

www.theatlantic.com

​

The Atlantic is a respected mainstream publication, so I would assume so. Very disturbing stuff.

 

[Tortoise]

A few snippets from the PCA seen on Law&Crime video linked. Names changed to initials by me, also underlining by me.

timestamp 3.25:

"baby bouncer/seat, padding under the baby bouncer/seat, and a baby monitor system. Detectives obtained measurements of the baby bouncer/seat, which measured eighteen inches from the tallest point of the seat to the floor."

timestamp 4.24:

"As for injuries sustained by John Doe, NV stated that she observed the injury to Doe's penis first and alerted his parents. She also photographed the injury and sent it to EK. She also stated that Doe sustained a scratch to his face while she was placing him in the car seat and he flailed his arms."

timestamp 4.37 to 4.48:

"It should also be noted that on 06/16/2024, your affiant spoke with SR and EK via telephone. Both parents denied causing any injuries to John Doe. EK stated that he was made aware of John Doe's injuries from NV. NV was changing the baby in the hallway between the two bedrooms, which was out of EK's eyesight. SR..."

 

[Tortoise]

When this first hit the news, we all thought she was left babysitting two twins. I was thinking frustrated lashing out from sitter. Now, it seems like she wasn't even alone with AK, with the mother taking a nap in the same house. I don't know where the father actually was, but NV sent him a photo of AK's injured genital area. It's just that she wasn't alone caring for AK for any length of time you'd think to be "torturing" him.

(I guess if it were her sick intention it'd be possible, but wow wth if she really had that intention like she's being accused of it's absolutely bizarre in that short a time frame.)

Rough timeline-- The parents, twins, and NV were on an outing during that day. NV was at a grocery store alone after that. Then, she's back at their place while the Mom slept what around 4-6 p.m.? Parents rush off to hospital with him by 6:30. So, she wasn't alone with AK hardly at all before the genital injuries were discovered. Plus tortured babies must scream and shriek super loud. I'm just having a hard time imagining it. All MOO here.​

BBM

From my observation, the word torture has been used in the notice of intention to seek the death penalty in relation to the alleged killing of LK, not what happened to AK. Has it also been used to refer to AK?

 

[Curious Me]

BBM
From my observation, the word torture has been used in the notice of intention to seek the death penalty in relation to the alleged killing of LK, not what happened to AK. Has it also been used to refer to AK?

I'm not sure nor do I think they specified; however, the infliction of pain is what can be considered torture. MOO, and with all due respect, I'm pretty sure the torture word is used as well for AK.

Do you not think tiny scratches or cuts to the very tip, with the scratches to his genital area & face, with the redness and swelling, would not be considered by prosecution as torture? The injuries are described as acute, and AK's injuries are part of the charges of child abuse most likely they are part of their theory that she "tortured".

The point I was trying to make was that she wasn't even alone for any length of time, with the mother napping. If she was inflicting those injuries on AK in that short time with the mother in the house napping, I would think the screams from the baby would be piercingly loud & extremely alarming to even neighbors. Don't you think so?
​

 

[Curious Me]

...Has it also been used to refer to AK?

Prosecutors allege the injuries to both children are a result of Virzi’s abuse. The District Attorney’s office cited aggravating factors that it believes make the alleged crimes suitable for capital punishment, including means of torture and a significant history of felony convictions involving the use or threat of violence.
​

CNN 5 minute read Published 10:51 AM EDT, Wed August 28, 2024
A woman allegedly killed her friend’s newborn twin and abused the other. Prosecutors will seek the death penalty

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/28/us/phd-student-baby-death-nicole-virzi-cec/index.html

UBM​

 

[NCWatcher]

A few snippets from the PCA seen on Law&Crime video linked. Names changed to initials by me, also underlining by me.

timestamp 3.25:

"baby bouncer/seat, padding under the baby bouncer/seat, and a baby monitor system. Detectives obtained measurements of the baby bouncer/seat, which measured eighteen inches from the tallest point of the seat to the floor."

timestamp 4.24:

"As for injuries sustained by John Doe, NV stated that she observed the injury to Doe's penis first and alerted his parents. She also photographed the injury and sent it to EK. She also stated that Doe sustained a scratch to his face while she was placing him in the car seat and he flailed his arms."

timestamp 4.37 to 4.48:

"It should also be noted that on 06/16/2024, your affiant spoke with SR and EK via telephone. Both parents denied causing any injuries to John Doe. EK stated that he was made aware of John Doe's injuries from NV. NV was changing the baby in the hallway between the two bedrooms, which was out of EK's eyesight. SR..."

It sounds like AK's facial scratch supposedly happened in the afternoon when the group was on the outing.

The hallway between the bedrooms may have been out of EK's eyesight but wouldn't have been out of either parents' earshot. (The mother was napping in one of those bedrooms.) Apparently the mother didn't wake up. And I'd think EK would have mentioned it if the baby was screaming. Some babies do fuss with diaper changes but I'd think the sound would be different from the typical diaper change fussing if his genitals were being acutely injured enough at that time to cause residual redness, bleeding and bruising.

BBM

From my observation, the word torture has been used in the notice of intention to seek the death penalty in relation to the alleged killing of LK, not what happened to AK. Has it also been used to refer to AK?

I don't know what the state means by its use of the word torture. It sounds like it refers to LK merely based on the order of the 4 factors used for the DP justification. But the document does have oddities IMO. And while torture is illegal in many PA statutes, it seems PA has been debating child torture bills for several years that haven't passed. (Critics say they are unnecessary as the actions described are already illegal.) From the latest bill to be introduced "The bill provides a detailed definition of "torture" that includes various acts such as severing limbs, depriving the child of food or water, and subjecting the child to extreme temperatures or sexual abuse." PA - HB2181

Full text can be found here: Bill Information - House Bill 2181; Regular Session 2023-2024

Prosecutors allege the injuries to both children are a result of Virzi’s abuse. The District Attorney’s office cited aggravating factors that it believes make the alleged crimes suitable for capital punishment, including means of torture and a significant history of felony convictions involving the use or threat of violence.
​

CNN 5 minute read Published 10:51 AM EDT, Wed August 28, 2024
A woman allegedly killed her friend’s newborn twin and abused the other. Prosecutors will seek the death penalty

https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/28/us/phd-student-baby-death-nicole-virzi-cec/index.html

UBM​

I guess the term torture could apply to AK as well as LK. (But I'm still not convinced doctors initially thought AK was abused.) Also the way the above is written, it almost makes it sound like the criminal injury to either twin would warrant capital punishment and I don't think that's what is meant in the written document.

MOO

 

[Tortoise]

I'm not sure nor do I think they specified; however, the infliction of pain is what can be considered torture. MOO, and with all due respect, I'm pretty sure the torture word is used as well for AK.

Do you not think tiny scratches or cuts to the very tip, with the scratches to his genital area & face, with the redness and swelling, would not be considered by prosecution as torture? The injuries are described as acute, and AK's injuries are part of the charges of child abuse most likely they are part of their theory that she "tortured".

The point I was trying to make was that she wasn't even alone for any length of time, with the mother napping. If she was inflicting those injuries on AK in that short time with the mother in the house napping, I would think the screams from the baby would be piercingly loud & extremely alarming to even neighbors. Don't you think so?
​

The point I am making is that it's important to know whether words and terminology put in quotations is an actual quote from the allegations, or not. It is used in relation to the alleged killing of LK as one of the aggravators for the death penalty. I think it has a very specific legal definition which will have to be proved.

I do think AK would have cried and screamed but that wasn't the point of my asking for clarification.

 

[Curious Me]

...terminology put in quotations is an actual quote from the allegations, or not.

No, those are air quotes around one word. If I were talking to you and wanted to express something sort of sarcastically used then I'd put my fingers up to make air quotes. In print, I have to use quotation marks. If I were quoting an actual article you'd know it by my providing a link.

​

 

[Tortoise]

No, those are air quotes around one word. If I were talking to you and wanted to express something sort of sarcastically used then I'd put my fingers up to make air quotes. In print, I have to use quotation marks. If I were quoting an actual article you'd know it by my providing a link.

​

Just to be clear, was the word torture sarcasm or a true opinion of the alleged abuse?

 

[Mauig’ma]

I'm not sure nor do I think they specified; however, the infliction of pain is what can be considered torture. MOO, and with all due respect, I'm pretty sure the torture word is used as well for AK.

Do you not think tiny scratches or cuts to the very tip, with the scratches to his genital area & face, with the redness and swelling, would not be considered by prosecution as torture? The injuries are described as acute, and AK's injuries are part of the charges of child abuse most likely they are part of their theory that she "tortured".

The point I was trying to make was that she wasn't even alone for any length of time, with the mother napping. If she was inflicting those injuries on AK in that short time with the mother in the house napping, I would think the screams from the baby would be piercingly loud & extremely alarming to even neighbors. Don't you think so?
​

She may have taken the baby outside to cause the trauma imo