PA - infant Leon Katz murdered, twin injured, allegedly by babysitter, Pittsburgh- June 24, 2024

[SMK777]

Still a bit of conflicting info out there. They went together on an outing during the day, and NV began watching LK at 6:30 while the parents took AK to the hospital. Was NV initially asked to babysit for a date night out, and that didn’t happen due to LK needing to go to hospital? Or was there never an intention for her to babysit, only occurred due to the hospital trip?

On the day before he died, Leon spent time with Virzi on an outing with his parents and twin brother, according to a police complaint.

At some point that day, police said, Virzi pointed out to Roberts and Katz that Ari had blood in his diaper and that his penis was red and swollen, the complaint said.

Virzi said Leon was left in her care sometime around 6:30 p.m. at Roberts and Katz's apartment while they brought Ari to the hospital.

Who is Nicole Virzi, PhD student accused of killing her friend's newborn son?

The 30-year-old was charged with homicide, aggravated assault and child endangerment in a case involving twin boys she was babysitting in Pittsburgh.

www.today.com

It’s pointless but I always wish they had had NV and Leon accompany them to the ER. At the time it would not really have made much sense, yet everything would be so different now if they had…

 

[IDK]

It’s pointless but I always wish they had had NV and Leon accompany them to the ER. At the time it would not really have made much sense, yet everything would be so different now if they had…

I totally agree— or even if one of the parents had come back to check on Leon once they had gotten Ari to the hospital. Five hours was a long time to leave them alone, in any circumstances.

It really seems the parents did not suspect anything unusual with AK’s injuries at all, even with the facial scratches— maybe it was not the first time he had scratched himself? I also wonder if they looked inside his diaper before taking him to the ER. So many odd things with this case.

 

[SMK777]

I totally agree— or even if one of the parents had come back to check on Leon once they had gotten Ari to the hospital. Five hours was a long time to leave them alone, in any circumstances.

It really seems the parents did not suspect anything unusual with AK’s injuries at all, even with the facial scratches— maybe it was not the first time he had scratched himself? I also wonder if they looked inside his diaper before taking him to the ER. So many odd things with this case.

Agreed — and all of that makes you wonder, as others have suggested, whether there would in fact actually have been any charges, if for some reason NV and Leon had been with them at the ER.

It really looks like the Leon incident is what ratcheted up the Ari incident in the opinion of the doctors. A perplexing and horrifying escalation for all parties.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the parents assumed Leon and NV would both simply be asleep at some point, so would be ok? Some babies go to sleep at 8 pm and sleep straight through until morning, if you’re lucky. Sadly that was not the case here.

 

[NCWatcher]

Agreed — and all of that makes you wonder, as others have suggested, whether there would in fact actually have been any charges, if for some reason NV and Leon had been with them at the ER.

It really looks like the Leon incident is what ratcheted up the Ari incident in the opinion of the doctors. A perplexing and horrifying escalation for all parties.

The only thing I can think of is that maybe the parents assumed Leon and NV would both simply be asleep at some point, so would be ok? Some babies go to sleep at 8 pm and sleep straight through until morning, if you’re lucky.

I'm not surprised they didn't take LK with them with or without NV. Taking a young baby to a probably crowded, noisy, "germy" ER isn't a very good idea unless the baby needs treatment. (It was a Sat night & I think it was reported they went to Children's Hospital. While that ER may be less of a "wild west" situation than ERs treating adults often are, most ERs are crowded on weekends.) If they had no reason to suspect NV (& it sounds like they didn't) it made sense to leave LK at home IMO.

NV said AK scratched his face earlier in the day when he was flailing his arms when put in the car seat. Obviously both the parents were there then AND were with both twins for many hours after that. It sounds like they must have said the scratches weren't there earlier or at least that they never noticed them or else the scratches wouldn't be mentioned in the criminal complaint. But it does seem it would be obvious to medical staff if a facial scratch had been made shortly before arriving at the ER vs hours earlier that day. I wonder if AK scratched himself again while in the car seat going to the hospital? Maybe he really doesn't like car seats. Certainly if his genitals were sore, being strapped in a seat must have been extremely unpleasant (but necessary.)
MOO

 

[NNT1]

According to this article: 'Her next scheduled court appearance is a pre-trial conference set for Sept. 13'

Who is Nicole Virzi, PhD student accused of killing her friend's newborn son?

The 30-year-old was charged with homicide, aggravated assault and child endangerment in a case involving twin boys she was babysitting in Pittsburgh.

www.today.com

As a non-American: how will things proceed from here when it comes to legal matters? Will we get more information on this case very quickly? When can we expect (live, filmed) testimony?

 

[SMK777]

According to this article: 'Her next scheduled court appearance is a pre-trial conference set for Sept. 13'

Who is Nicole Virzi, PhD student accused of killing her friend's newborn son?

The 30-year-old was charged with homicide, aggravated assault and child endangerment in a case involving twin boys she was babysitting in Pittsburgh.

www.today.com

As a non-American: how will things proceed from here when it comes to legal matters? Will we get more information on this case very quickly? When can we expect (live, filmed) testimony?

Although I’m an American, it’s hard to pin down, because it’s contingent on how many delays and procedural extensions the defense (or sometimes even the prosecution) may ask for.

Sometimes cases move forward quickly with a lot of new information coming to light. Other times, there is endless haggling and as stated procedural delays, etc.

I’m hoping this case will fall into the first category, fingers crossed.

 

[IDK]

Those are all great points SMK77 and as a US citizen I also find it confusing! I was just researching it myself

“Pre-trial Conferences

Judges use pre-trial conferences with lawyers for many purposes. One type of conference gaining popularity is the status conference (sometimes called the early conference). This conference held after all initial pleadings have been filed helps the judge manage the case. Judges use it to establish a time frame for concluding all pre-trial activities and may set a tentative trial date at this time.”

“Judges also use pre-trial conferences to encourage settling cases. At the conference, the judge and the lawyers can review the evidence and clarify the issues in dispute.”

“If a case hasn t been settled, many courts set a time for an issue conference. The lawyers usually appear at this hearing before a judge without their clients and try to agree on undisputed facts or points of law. Such agreements are called stipulations . The issue conference can shorten the actual trial time by determining points that don t need to be proved during the trial. If a settlement doesn t take place through pre-trial conferences, the judge sets a date for the trial.”

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/pretrial_conference/

I’m especially interested if the cases will be tried separately with AK’s case first.

 

[SMK777]

Those are all great points SMK77 and as a US citizen I also find it confusing! I was just researching it myself

“Pre-trial Conferences

Judges use pre-trial conferences with lawyers for many purposes. One type of conference gaining popularity is the status conference (sometimes called the early conference). This conference held after all initial pleadings have been filed helps the judge manage the case. Judges use it to establish a time frame for concluding all pre-trial activities and may set a tentative trial date at this time.”

“Judges also use pre-trial conferences to encourage settling cases. At the conference, the judge and the lawyers can review the evidence and clarify the issues in dispute.”

“If a case hasn t been settled, many courts set a time for an issue conference. The lawyers usually appear at this hearing before a judge without their clients and try to agree on undisputed facts or points of law. Such agreements are called stipulations . The issue conference can shorten the actual trial time by determining points that don t need to be proved during the trial. If a settlement doesn t take place through pre-trial conferences, the judge sets a date for the trial.”

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/pretrial_conference/

I’m especially interested if the cases will be tried separately with AK’s case first.

Great information!
Yes, that’s indeed an interesting question.

 

[Curious Me]

How fast do the court systems operate typically for murder trials in Pennsylvania? Locals may know. It's slow here in CA, usually three years before it makes it to actual trial.

I've been following one case for eight years. One defendant was tried and convicted, but the partner is just being tried this year. It's not even a murder case, but a couple that molesting children and she was supplying the children.

I don't want to bring this thread off topic, so will limit it to this. I didn't follow the Lucy Letby case, but read up a bit when it was mentioned here. Ever since running a search, now my computer wants to offer me more articles about it. She was convicted, all those notes she wrote, etc., but there's still a fight going on that she was used as a scape goat. Didn't the infant deaths go down when she was gone? Anyways, that case doesn't seem over and it sounded like they had plenty of evidence.

All MOO here-- So, what evidence could they have to prove without a doubt that NV purposely harmed the twins? I think they will need some camera footage because it's hard to prove it was done intentionally. Certainly not enough for a DP trial, IMO. A doctor claiming they think so, isn't really solid evidence on intention. I know opinions differ, but what do you you think? What would you expect as a juror as damning evidence?​

 

[SMK777]

How fast do the court systems operate typically for murder trials in Pennsylvania? Locals may know. It's slow here in CA, usually three years before it makes it to actual trial.

I've been following one case for eight years. One defendant was tried and convicted, but the partner is just being tried this year. It's not even a murder case, but a couple that molesting children and she was supplying the children.

I don't want to bring this thread off topic, so will limit it to this. I didn't follow the Lucy Letby case, but read up a bit when it was mentioned here. Ever since running a search, now my computer wants to offer me more articles about it. She was convicted, all those notes she wrote, etc., but there's still a fight going on that she was used as a scape goat. Didn't the infant deaths go down when she was gone? Anyways, that case doesn't seem over and it sounded like they had plenty of evidence.

All MOO here-- So, what evidence could they have to prove without a doubt that NV purposely harmed the twins? I think they will need some camera footage because it's hard to prove it was done intentionally. Certainly not enough for a DP trial, IMO. A doctor claiming they think so, isn't really solid evidence on intention. I know opinions differ, but what do you you think? What would you expect as a juror as damning evidence?​

I sure hope it doesn’t drag on for years to get to trial, as in the Jodi Arias case which took nearly 5 years. So much for the right to a speedy trial.

I’m not sure why the Letby case still has naysayers, except that there were no witnesses, including cameras (see image below).

I would agree that for a death penalty case, a juror should want hardcore evidence such as camera footage, and not just a physician’s professional opinion. I certainly would in that situation.

I’m so conflicted about this case and wish things would speed up.

Lucy Letby: killer or coincidence? Why some experts question the evidence

Exclusive: Doubts raised over safety of convictions of nurse found guilty of murdering babies

www.theguardian.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

According to this article: 'Her next scheduled court appearance is a pre-trial conference set for Sept. 13'

Who is Nicole Virzi, PhD student accused of killing her friend's newborn son?

The 30-year-old was charged with homicide, aggravated assault and child endangerment in a case involving twin boys she was babysitting in Pittsburgh.

www.today.com

As a non-American: how will things proceed from here when it comes to legal matters? Will we get more information on this case very quickly? When can we expect (live, filmed) testimony?

AFAIK, Pennsylvania doesn’t allow live-streaming of criminal courtroom sessions. But media will be waiting outside for interviews, assuming no gag order. We will have to rely on media reports, and transcripts. I may try to go Friday.

201 Pa. Code Rule 1910. Broadcasting, Recording and Photography in the Courtroom.

Information included at this site has been derived directly from the Pennsylvania Code, the Commonwealth's official publication of rules and regulations and from the Pennsylvania Bulletin, the Commonwealth's official gazette for information and rulemaking

www.pacodeandbulletin.gov

 

[NCWatcher]

I sure hope it doesn’t drag on for years to get to trial, as in the Jodi Arias case which took nearly 5 years. So much for the right to a speedy trial.

I’m not sure why the Letby case still has naysayers, except that there were no witnesses, including cameras (see image below).

I would agree that for a death penalty case, a juror should want hardcore evidence such as camera footage, and not just a physician’s professional opinion. I certainly would in that situation.

I’m so conflicted about this case and wish things would speed up.

View attachment 530380

The right to a speedy trial belongs to the defendant. A defendant can waive that right and many do.

I'd expect this case to take some time going to trial. I AM very curious about the evidence the state has. (I want more than a doctor's opinion too but personally I'll be surprised if there is video evidence.) Even though I'm curious, I still hope it's not a "rocket docket" situation. It IS a death penalty case after all (even though PA hasn't executed anyone for 25 years and can't under the current governor, making it a DP case will slow things down I expect.)
MOO

 

[Tortoise]

All MOO here-- So, what evidence could they have to prove without a doubt that NV purposely harmed the twins? I think they will need some camera footage because it's hard to prove it was done intentionally. Certainly not enough for a DP trial, IMO. A doctor claiming they think so, isn't really solid evidence on intention. I know opinions differ, but what do you you think? What would you expect as a juror as damning evidence?

RSBM

The medical evidence, IMO

Re LK: There are certain types of brain injury/retinal injury that are indicators for abusive head trauma. We know that there were multiple brain bleeds, and it's just a guess but the locations of these multiple bleeds might contradict a single impact.

 

[SMK777]

it's just a guess but the locations of these multiple bleeds might contradict a single impact.

Snipped for focus
Yes, it will be very important to hear from both sides about the meaning of this aspect of the sustained injury. Although you have to wonder whether there will be conflicting opinions from various hired expert witnesses from the defense….

Accidental Traumatic Head Injury in Infants and Young Children - PMC

This article will discuss accidental head injuries in infants and young children. The first category of injury is the crushing head injury. Static forces applied slowly to the head result in multiple fractures of the skull and contusions and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Curious Me]

The medical evidence, IMO
Re LK: There are certain types of brain injury/retinal injury that are indicators for abusive head trauma....snipped to reply

I do respect your opinion, @Tortoise. It's just not enough for me as evidence. The medical evidence you describe is a description of the injuries, and how medical personnel thinks they occurred, or that they think it indicates abuse. That isn't conclusive enough for me to prove it was intentionally done. Unless they can prove NV purposely and intentionally harmed, causing the death of LK, then I will have reasonable doubt.

Suppose one expert testifies injuries mean abuse, and another highly acclaimed expert testifies not indicative enough to be deemed abuse. What will you think then?

Two head injuries in unexplained places still doesn't help me see NV as doing it intentionally, perhaps if they can prove actual strikes to the head with a weapon it'd be enough.

I'm curious to hear it, and I imagine the evidence presented for AK's injuries will have to be really strong as to how abusive they must be, so they can connect the two to show how guilty they think NV is. Again, another expert may take the stand and say the injuries were caused from some abrasive car seat part.

Please know, if she harmed those precious infants, I definitely want Justice to prevail and her put behind bars for a long time. I'm just needing some solid evidence that she had the motive or intention to purposely harm them. I would not want to serve on that jury.​

 

[SMK777]

Suppose one expert testifies injuries mean abuse, and another highly acclaimed expert testifies not indicative enough to be deemed abuse. What will you think then?

This is nearly guaranteed to happen.

 

[SMK777]

Please know, if she harmed those precious infants, I definitely want Justice to prevail and her put behind bars for a long time. I'm just needing some solid evidence that she had the motive or intention to purposely harm them. I would not want to serve on that jury.

SBM
My feelings exactly.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Snipped for focus
Yes, it will be very important to hear from both sides about the meaning of this aspect of the sustained injury. Although you have to wonder whether there will be conflicting opinions from various hired expert witnesses from the defense….

Accidental Traumatic Head Injury in Infants and Young Children - PMC

This article will discuss accidental head injuries in infants and young children. The first category of injury is the crushing head injury. Static forces applied slowly to the head result in multiple fractures of the skull and contusions and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 530395

There will be experts on both side, for sure. The prosecutors may have the upper hand, as the hospital is the witness to the infant’s examination. The defense side will have expert opinions, but they didn’t see the child in person, as he was dying.

The testimony from the treating hospital’s chief expert will be compelling, and excruciating, if it gets in front of a jury.

jmo

 

[SMK777]

There will be experts on both side, for sure. The prosecutors may have the upper hand, as the hospital is the witness to the infant’s examination. The defense side will have expert opinions, but they didn’t see the child in person, as he was dying.

The testimony from the treating hospital’s chief expert will be compelling, and excruciating, if it gets in front of a jury.

jmo

Yes, that’s certainly true.

 

[ChatteringBirds]

A doctor claiming they think so, isn't really solid evidence on intention. I know opinions differ, but what do you you think? What would you expect as a juror as damning evidence?

The jury shouldn't expect "damning evidence" to convict, but proof "beyond reasonable doubt." That doesn't require it be caught on video for me. But I would need things to add up to it not being a baby accidentally falling from a bassinet (or whatever he was placed in) beyond a reasonable doubt. (Edited by me to rewrite confusing sentence.) I would need to have no "reasonable doubt" that she did indeed harm him violently.

If I did have that doubt, I think I would still likely convict on lesser charges that were proven BARD, depending on what the law said about those charges.

Personally I would be curious about motive but not require that there be one I could "understand." Because sometimes people simply commit violence because they have an impulse to do so, IMO.