PA - Michael, 50, & Cathryn Borden, 50, shot to death, 13 Nov 2005

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first of all, what did nancy grace say that was so bad? (i didn't watch it)

second, this kid is NOT a "goth" by a long shot... please. into christian rock? generic wal-mart american dress? talks in that -wanna be language?? just having long bangs does not make you "gothic".

also, did anyone find it shocking that the guy's uncle (or father or whoever) is sitting around with these young obviously underage boys, drinking beer, with pics put on the internet, for the whole world to see (unless they were just "pretending" to drink?)?? what did his "christian" parents think about this?

as for the girl's mom & dad, it just sounds like they were just trying to be good parents, and unfortunately their very sheltered daughter became involved with a pretty idiotic and immature 18-yr old, who just happened to have access to GUNS,, whose mind was so warped and stunted by playing video/computer games (probably) among other things... that he didn't have a clear picture of reality vs. non-reality... add hormones and you have a lethal mix.

i agree that he deserves the DP. this was no "teenage accident". anyone who lacks the mental capacity to prevent themselves from doing such a deed needs to be taken out of society altogether. the ONLY reason i might think otherwise is if it were a proven fact that her parents were sadistically abusing her, and kept her trapped, or her life were in danger somehow.

it will certainly be interesting,, to see what the girl has to say.

the ones i really feel sorry for are the 2 other kids, and the parents themselves... their last sight on earth was of this deranged teenage boyfriend holding a gun to them... and in their last thoughts, they probably wondered if their daughter (& other children) would be killed by the psycho too... and they- possibly- died knowing they failed to protect her (if they even got a chance to think anything).
 
What is the statistic? 1 in 200 of the population are sociopathic? Something like that.

I teach 11th grade. This boy looks like my students. No different. I guess that's why Wednesday Addams went as a sociopath for Halloween: "I'm a sociopath," she said. "We look like everybody else."

What's the "goth" thing going around? I don't understand the implication. I have taught many goths, and they've all been nice kids. To me, this kid doesn't fit the "goth" profile. The true goths at my school have very dark hair (dyed), where pale makeup with striking features (very red lips and dark eye makeup), and wear expensive clothes from Hot Topic. But, like I said, the ones I've met have just been regular, nice kids (behind all that creepy makeup). I think they're just trying to make a statement. My own 14yo daughter is not allowed to wear makeup, but she does wear all black, and she likes to put different colored streaks in her hair, and she likes scary stories (and PG-13 rated scary movies -- we don't go for R). But she's just a normal, Johnny Depp obsessed, giggly teenaged girl!
 
also.. what is up with that "eating CANDY" thing (both listed that as one of their interests on their websites?)...
and kara & her sister both talk about "stoners" (their friends), and one of kara's interests is "going to partys-- YEAHHHH!!" (and i don't think she's talking about birthday parties. what is up with that???? i didn't go to "partys" at age 14 with stoners,, i was do busy- uhh, DOING HOMEWORK and things like that. (and i wasn't even homeschooled!) where do these kids get all this time to "party" before they're even 15???

and on further investigation into some of the "myspace" brats... it turns my stomach. normal-looking teenage suburban or small-town white kids on there, with pictures of guns, violence & gore, and saying f* this and f* that, smoking pot, tryin' to git down wit' da "steet " wanna-be black thing. trying to be all pimp and fly and whatnot. when did all THAT start?? one girl even talks about "i'm having a bad day cuz i can't have the guy i want, makes me wanna go kill some people".... i'm sorry, i know it's a "joke" but i find that kind of disturbing, especially in these times.
and all the girls posing like *advertiser censored*, saying how they are "hot as ",, etc.

these kids are sick. and don't anyone tell me "aww,, it's just normal teenage stuff"..... NO, it isn't.

when i was in high school (in the 70's-80's) the most taboo thing some of the bolder kids were doing was smoking a cigarette behind the school, maybe making out. it was not the norm for kids to be stoners and full-fledged alcoholics by the time they were 15 or 16... those kids were still kind of on the fringe. now it seems like it's the norm,, and anything goes. or am i wrong, was it always this bad??
 
reb said:
also.. what is up with that "eating CANDY" thing (both listed that as one of their interests on their websites?)...
and kara & her sister both talk about "stoners" (their friends), and one of kara's interests is "going to partys-- YEAHHHH!!" (and i don't think she's talking about birthday parties. what is up with that???? i didn't go to "partys" at age 14 with stoners,, i was do busy- uhh, DOING HOMEWORK and things like that. (and i wasn't even homeschooled!) where do these kids get all this time to "party" before they're even 15???QUOTE]

As I said in the other thread, I live in the area where this took place. Knowing the area, and the homeschooling part, I think that Kara had a pretty tight leash. I don't know how many drinking parties she attended, for instance. Lots of teens have parties without alcohol. And when I was a teen, I would stretch the truth into what I wanted to present. I wrote the most ridiculous play about me and my friends when I was 18, pretending we were all gangsters. @@ It embarrasses me now, but even then we were harmless. I don't know if she was involved, but I hope she wasn't.
Click to expand...
 
At this point, I don't think she was involved. I think she was manipulated by an older teen and a romantic version of what her life would be.The fact that she was seen with a bloated face and red eyes tells me she was more concerned than her boyfriend,and going along, for not what else was she supposed to do, but for survival.I understand young people can be criminals but I don't think this young girl was fully apprised.
 
Some people use "candy" as slang for drugs: crack, cocaine, depressants, amphetamines. or just illegal drugs in general-- i wonder if thats what she meant by CANDY?
 
wow,,, you know you have a point. and i just thought that it was kind of bizarre & ironic, here's 2 little kids (well, he's a kid mentally- and a dumb one at that) and they're talking about how they like "jesus, going to partys, & eating candy".... then the one kid murders the other kid's parents.... but, maybe they did mean drugs...? somehow i think they really DID mean the sweet stuff, but who knows....
 
reb said:
wow,,, you know you have a point. and i just thought that it was kind of bizarre & ironic, here's 2 little kids (well, he's a kid mentally- and a dumb one at that) and they're talking about how they like "jesus, going to partys, & eating candy".... then the one kid murders the other kid's parents.... but, maybe they did mean drugs...? somehow i think they really DID mean the sweet stuff, but who knows....
Click to expand...
Maybe they mean candy as in the sweet stuff, but for these kids to say how into jesus and church etc. then they stay out all night, a friend says they had a secret intimate relationship, and that they shared intimate pictures with each other over the internet and by camera phones, and then he shoots her parents?? I wouldnt be surprised if "candy" meant something other than the sweet stuff.
 
great article here found via riehlworldview. now speculation is perhaps a pregnancy? and where's the other xanga?

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/18619

Kara had two Web sites posted on xanga.com, a popular Internet site where young people post online diaries, photos and other information about themselves. Others can post messages on these sites.

One of Kara’s sites has a pink background and a goofy photo of herself. It outlines her interests in church, baby-sitting, soccer and her friends.

Another site, started in June, has a black background and a different photo of herself, wearing a baseball cap and sunglasses.

On this site is posted an online conversation she apparently had with a friend on Oct. 17 about her relationship with Ludwig.

In the chat, the friend notes that she wants to have a talk with Kara because “things are getting out of hand.” (Spelling, abbreviations and punctuation appear as they do on the Web site.)

Kara tells the friend, “it doesn’t have anything to do with you...if it has to do with david and me. we are taking care of it. we know what we are going to do.”
 
hhhhmmmmm......

sounds to me like if she was knocked up, they were planning to run away,, and maybe she didn't know about his plans to murder her parents (and maybe he wasn't planning it either).. seems hard to believe that little "kare bear" who was into "jesus, hugging, shopping, babysitting, candy, making new friends (oh, and 'partys')" would really consider offing her "rents".

it's possible, though...
 
reb said:
hhhhmmmmm......

sounds to me like if she was knocked up
Click to expand...
If this is true, they can just add statutory rape to the list of charges against David.
 
concernedperson said:
At this point, I don't think she was involved. I think she was manipulated by an older teen and a romantic version of what her life would be.The fact that she was seen with a bloated face and red eyes tells me she was more concerned than her boyfriend,and going along, for not what else was she supposed to do, but for survival.I understand young people can be criminals but I don't think this young girl was fully apprised.
Click to expand...


I agree, CP...when I think that my daughter is only 2 years younger than Kara....I don't think Kara knew ahead of time he was going to kill her parents, and I think she went along with him on the long car flight out of fear.
 
Anyone know the laws in PA about having to get a parent's permission for an abortion?

nevermind....found it. This could explain a lot.

Thirty-eight states have laws that prevent a minor from obtaining an abortion without parental consent or notice (AL, AK, AZ, AR, CA, CO, DE, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NM, NC, ND, OH, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, UT, WV, WI, WY). Nine more states have parental consent or notice laws on the books that are not enforced (AK, AZ, CA, CO, IL, MT, NV, NM, SD). California's Supreme Court has found that state's law in violation of the California Constitution. Twenty-eight laws are actually enforced (AL, AR, DE, GA, ID, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MA, MI, MN, MS, MO, NE, NC, ND, OH, PA, RI, SC, UT, WV, WI, WY). Two states provide for a physician waiver of the notice requirement (MD, WV). One state (CT) requires counselors to discuss of the possibility of parental involvement. Maine allows a minor to receive counseling in lieu of parental or judicial consent.
 


Lititz Borough police Detective John Schofield and Warwick Township police Detective Eric Zimmerman interviewed Ludwig's friend, Samuel Peter Lohr, 19, of Lititz, Monday night.

"Lohr stated that through his relationship with Ludwig, he was well aware that Ludwig and Kara Borden were involved in an ongoing secret intimate relationship of a sexual nature," a detective wrote in court documents.

"They often communicated flirtatious messages and exchanged inappropriate images of one another via their computers and cell phones."

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/18635
 
The shooting occurred following an argument in the Bordens' home at 15 Royal Drive, Warwick Township.

Ludwig and Kara had a secret sexual relationship, one of Ludwig's friends told police, and the Bordens did not approve of them dating.

Investigators contend Ludwig kidnapped Kara, whom they said was not involved in the plot to kill her parents, and held her against her will.

"Kara is being treated as a victim as far as I'm concerned," Garipoli said. "She is being taken care of well."

Kara was reunited with her sister and three brothers at an undisclosed location. The family home, a crime scene crawling with reporters and law enforcement officers for two days, was dark Tuesday night.

Lancaster County District Attorney Donald R. Totaro is sympathetic to the orphaned Borden children. In addition to Kara, they include Katelyn, 13; David, 11; and Justin and James, who are in their early 20s.

http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/18635
 
Scary. 14 and sexually active. This doesn't surprise me as much as it should, as I know many children in my school who are pregnant or parents already. One boy fathered a child in 7th grade; the mother was in 9th grade. It is not unheard of. The youngest mother I've known of was a 5th grader, I guess about 10 years ago.

I think the Internet and kids don't necessarily mix well, or at least without very close supervision. Myspace is very popular. My students and I were talking about it as they were in the computer lab yesterday showing me their own sites. These were nice girls, normal kids. They showed me pics of themselves on the beach in bikinis. Do they and their parents really want strangers to be looking at those pictures?
 
I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm of the impression that she went with him out of 'fear.' Her sister said after the shooting he ran through the house calling her name.

Just think about she'd come home late, 6 a.m. Had an argument with her parents and then the dad calls the bf over at about 7 a.m. The boy, brings a gun (what was he thinking?) and after an hour argument with the dad and as he's being escorted to the door and probably being told to stay away from Kara, he shoots him, runs to the mom and shoots her, grabs Kara!

The poor girl was probably in shock. Plus, with her siblings in the home still, she had to think of them. I mean, if he'd shoot her parents he's definitely unstable. Had she refused to go with him, what's to say he wouldn't shoot her, her siblings, and then himself.

I think she's a victim here. Poor thing.

Prayers to the entire family. A horrible, horrible, tragedy. :(

JMHO
fran
 
It's big news out here on the west coast.
 
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