PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[Steely Dan]

I'm almost positive he's dead. From what his daughter and girlfriend say, it seems unlikely that he would never have contacted them.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm almost positive he's dead. From what his daughter and girlfriend say, it seems unlikely that he would never have contacted them.

I think that there is are at least two very good reason why he would not contact either, directly, if RFG did walk away.

1. RFG was familiar with cases of declaring people dead. He actually talked about one, the Mel Wiley case. Wiley is believe to have walked away (and there is a thread on him).

RFG would, as a lawyer, realize that both PEF and LG would be called to testify. If he tells either, they have a choice, tell the truth or commit perjury. I don't think he wanted to put them in the position of perjury and engaging in fraud.

We can see something similar in the Brenda Heist case. Her husband is not facing any criminal charges because she never told him that she left on her own.

2. RFG has no idea exactly what LE is monitoring in terms of communication. It would have been possible that LE could have intercepted a message.

I can understand why RFG would not tell LG or PEF, if he did walk away.

 

[bykerladi]

Just to clarify, pension information IS a public record in the State of New Jersey, and I'm pretty sure its also public in Pennsylvania. Its public by law under the state open public records act.

 

[SeekingJana]

I think that there is are at least two very good reason why he would not contact either, directly, if RFG did walk away.

1. RFG was familiar with cases of declaring people dead. He actually talked about one, the Mel Wiley case. Wiley is believe to have walked away (and there is a thread on him).

RFG would, as a lawyer, realize that both PEF and LG would be called to testify. If he tells either, they have a choice, tell the truth or commit perjury. I don't think he wanted to put them in the position of perjury and engaging in fraud.

We can see something similar in the Brenda Heist case. Her husband is not facing any criminal charges because she never told him that she left on her own.

2. RFG has no idea exactly what LE is monitoring in terms of communication. It would have been possible that LE could have intercepted a message.

I can understand why RFG would not tell LG or PEF, if he did walk away.

J.J., at this late date and let's say for the period of time since Mr. Gricar has been in the status of " legally declared deceased", do you have an opinion on whether or not Lara or Patty would reveal any knowledge of his whereabouts IF he was alive and had communicated with either since the legal status change?

To me, IF he is alive, the court ruling changed things somewhat. He could be assured of Lara legally getting his pension and other monies if any and Patty was also provided for in a monetary sum ( life insurance?) if I recall correctly, although she may not have had to wait almost 7 years to collect.
All the loved ones in his life would have to do is keep silent. Not tell his secrets. Not submit to polygraphs if asked to take them, on the basis that they had already done so years before. etc.

Disclaimer: I think it's just as likely that he is dead and has been dead since April 15 or 16, 2005. However, we have NO info to go on or discuss if that is the case. No suspects, no other evidence of murder.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm almost positive he's dead. From what his daughter and girlfriend say, it seems unlikely that he would never have contacted them.

I would add that there are some people out there that are convinced that RFG has been in communication with his daughter. I am not one of them, but many do exist. I cited one such comment: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/07/16/2839478/well-does-she.html

I would add that the comments directed toward LG have been particularly brutal and are often in a similar tone to the one cited.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

J.J., at this late date and let's say for the period of time since Mr. Gricar has been in the status of " legally declared deceased", do you have an opinion on whether or not Lara or Patty would reveal any knowledge of his whereabouts IF he was alive and had communicated with either since the legal status change?

I will not attempt to channel either woman.

That said, at the time RFG was declared dead, LG's attorney indicated that the heirs would have to return the money, if RFG was found to be alive.

Assuming, as I do, that neither knew that RFG was alive when they testified in July of 2011, they would not be guilty of perjury. If RFG contacted them after that point, it might open them up to fraud charges. Based on what I said previously, I think it would be unlikely he would contact them.

All the loved ones in his life would have to do is keep silent. Not tell his secrets. Not submit to polygraphs if asked to take them, on the basis that they had already done so years before. etc.

Obviously, it would have been possible to initiate contact after the well publicized declaration of death, assuming RFG was alive at that point. I would still think it is unlikely.

I think that such a move would promote howls of outrage from both the public and the police, now the PSP, and might subject either or both to substantially higher scrutiny by the police. It might even trigger a grand jury.

We also have to remember that this intersecting with the PSU 3 case. Some of the comments, even by those people claiming to be "supporting" RFG have helped create a negative impression of him.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If he walked away why would he give up a nice pension just because someone could trace him? Like I said he was not abandoning a nagging wife and a house full of kids he needed to support.

One possible motivation is that he could have been worried about someone coming after him. In that regard, and knowing that his loved ones would be not only well provided for, but better provided for, financially, could be multiple motivations.

It is not a crime to walk away. RG's daughter was grown and can make her own way. I doubt she'd rather have his benefits than a relationship with him. Actually I never thought suicide before but I think homicide or suicide much more likely than walk away.

The finances point to a voluntary act, and suicide is a voluntary act. So is walking away.

for what its worth my pension information is not public record. If I did something illegal certainly it could be obtained but not just anyone could walk in there and get the information. After I'm gone, yes.

Mine is now, at least in terms of my address and I'm in the state retirement system in PA. The only exception is with a court order preventing its release. A copy of the form is here, under the title "Right-to-Know Law Disclosure of Home Address Exception Documentation": http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=593687&mode=2

 

[MissJ]

Just to clarify, pension information IS a public record in the State of New Jersey, and I'm pretty sure its also public in Pennsylvania. Its public by law under the state open public records act.

Mine isn't but RG's might have been:moo:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think this was posted earlier in the thread.

In the last century, there have been only 13-14 prosecutors murdered.

In that time, at least 3 of those were killed by someone committing another crime, and were not targeted, e.g. one was shot in a robbery. Of the 10-11, 1-2 were killed in a general courthouse shooting situation. Two are undermined.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/justice/prosecutors-murders-rare/

I have only heard of one a prosecutor being murdered after retirement. The murderer, who committed suicide after killing the former-DA, had been prosecuted by him in 1955; the murder took place in 1986.

http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1986/A...eaths-Bjt/id-dc4ed73b98772d74d624c931eb10051e

 

[Steely Dan]

I think one talking head put it best when he said that if you think that the Gricar's disappearance had nothing to do with the Sandusky thing, you're being naive. I think there's a very good chance the two things are connected. JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think one talking head put it best when he said that if you think that the Gricar's disappearance had nothing to do with the Sandusky thing, you're being naive. I think there's a very good chance the two things are connected. JMO

It depends.

So far, there is no suggestion RFG didn't do anything illegal or unethical regarding Sandusky. There isn't any reason to "go on the lam."

RFG didn't prosecute Sandusky, so there wouldn't be any reason for anyone at PSU to kill him to keep him from prosecuting Sandusky.

Only if one of those two things would change would there be a "Sandusky reason" behind his murder or walkaway.

 

[lpshred]

Gotta think the bump up to the PSP only strengthens the foul play theory. You don't need more statewide resources to look for a suicide 9 years later, and God help us all if Ray's been hiding in PA and no one's noticed for 9 years. If they thought he was anywhere else, they could have engaged the FBI or international LE. The fact that this went to the highest PA CRIMINAL investigation unit means there's something worth chasing down, it's big, and it's right here in our backyard. Given the recent Sandusky and Hell's Angels revelations, there must be some pretty compelling leads pointing to foul play.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Gotta think the bump up to the PSP only strengthens the foul play theory. You don't need more statewide resources to look for a suicide 9 years later, and God help us all if Ray's been hiding in PA and no one's noticed for 9 years. If they thought he was anywhere else, they could have engaged the FBI or international LE. The fact that this went to the highest PA CRIMINAL investigation unit means there's something worth chasing down, it's big, and it's right here in our backyard. Given the recent Sandusky and Hell's Angels revelations, there must be some pretty compelling leads pointing to foul play.

The Hell's Angles were ruled out. Further, they actually investigated it about 8-10 months ago. If there was a connection, they would not have waited 8-10 months.

While not suicide, the PSP can handle two elements of the investigation that the BPD isn't overly suited for, foreign travel and forensic accounting. Perhaps ironically, the decision to transfer the case was made around the time a few of us started looking at RFG's financials, thought Rickard was reassigned in September.

There is another factor. The PSP is one of the agencies involved in the PSU 3 case. While he might not have done anything illegal or unethical, RFG could be a witness.

I've long taken the position that if RFG walked away, I would not be looking for him. It is not illegal to leave voluntarily, and I am unaware of any reason to leave to avoid prosecution. If he left voluntarily, I am very much inclined to leave him alone. The PSP may not be, if he is a witness in the PSP 3 case.

I should also add that Brenda Heist, a woman with a high school diploma, no work experience in law enforcement, and zero resources, hid for 11 years. I think RFG is, by far, better equiped than her.

 

[MissJ]

Gotta think the bump up to the PSP only strengthens the foul play theory. You don't need more statewide resources to look for a suicide 9 years later, and God help us all if Ray's been hiding in PA and no one's noticed for 9 years. If they thought he was anywhere else, they could have engaged the FBI or international LE. The fact that this went to the highest PA CRIMINAL investigation unit means there's something worth chasing down, it's big, and it's right here in our backyard. Given the recent Sandusky and Hell's Angels revelations, there must be some pretty compelling leads pointing to foul play.

ITA. If they really thought he walked away or killed himself I doubt that they'd be expending so much in resources. :moo:

 

[J. J. in Phila]

ITA. If they really thought he walked away or killed himself I doubt that they'd be expending so much in resources. :moo:

If they were looking for a material witness, they may.

Also, if they wanted to prove conclusively that RFG lefty voluntarily, they may.

 

[lpshred]

ITA. If they really thought he walked away or killed himself I doubt that they'd be expending so much in resources. :moo:

My thoughts exactly. At 9 years later, no point in wasting law enforcement hours on someone who's been declared dead unless there's something criminal to be found. This isn't about finding RG, it's about finding his killer.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

My thoughts exactly. At 9 years later, no point in wasting law enforcement hours on someone who's been declared dead unless there's something criminal to be found. This isn't about finding RG, it's about finding his killer.

There would be several reasons, however.

Simply, they want the PSP to review it then announce a solution, so it doesn't look like there is a "local cover-up."

They think RFG is alive and want him as a material witness in the PSU 3 trial. If he was available, it is likely he would be called.

 

[Steely Dan]

There would be several reasons, however.

Simply, they want the PSP to review it then announce a solution, so it doesn't look like there is a "local cover-up."

They think RFG is alive and want him as a material witness in the PSU 3 trial. If he was available, it is likely he would be called.

Well this is what I think can be fairly surmised from what I know.

1. He met someone he knows across from the antique shop. That person smoked and was evidently a woman from eyewitness reports.

2. He left his car behind with no intention of going back for it, or wasn't capable of going back for it.

3. Whoever threw his laptop into the river and removed the hard drive didn't want anyone to know what was on it.

4. Ray has not contacted his family in nine years, that we know about.

5. Both the girlfriend and daughter passed lie detector tests early on.

6. He was the prosecutor that knew about the JS case and didn't prosecute it.

If he walked away then they need to find him so his family can have peace and they can ask him what was on the hard drive that he wanted destroyed?

If it was foul play then obviously something needs to be done.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I know less than you do then.

Respectfully snipped.

1. He met someone he knows across from the antique shop. That person smoked and was evidently a woman from eyewitness reports.

2. He left his car behind with no intention of going back for it, or wasn't capable of going back for it.

1. I do not know of any sighting with the woman across from the SoS. She was seen with him in the SoS. We don't know if she was actually "with" RFG or just a fellow shopper.

2. We don't know his intention, except that the keys are missing.

3. Whoever threw his laptop into the river and removed the hard drive didn't want anyone to know what was on it.

And RFG did not want anyone to know what was on it. He did the searches and asked people about how to get rid of the data. It, however, is not unusual for someone not wanting what his on his/her computer to ever see the light of day. It could be unrelated to his disappearance.

4. Ray has not contacted his family in nine years, that we know about.

5. Both the girlfriend and daughter passed lie detector tests early on.

Agreed, but nothing recent.

6. He was the prosecutor that knew about the JS case and didn't prosecute it.

If he walked away then they need to find him so his family can have peace and they can ask him what was on the hard drive that he wanted destroyed?

There are other questions. Why didn't RFG prosecute Sandusky in 1998? Why was the case handled the way it was? Was there any additional contact between officials at PSU and the DA's Office?

 

[Steely Dan]

I know less than you do then.

Respectfully snipped.



1. I do not know of any sighting with the woman across from the SoS. She was seen with him in the SoS. We don't know if she was actually "with" RFG or just a fellow shopper.

2. We don't know his intention, except that the keys are missing.



And RFG did not want anyone to know what was on it. He did the searches and asked people about how to get rid of the data. It, however, is not unusual for someone not wanting what his on his/her computer to ever see the light of day. It could be unrelated to his disappearance.



Agreed, but nothing recent.



There are other questions. Why didn't RFG prosecute Sandusky in 1998? Why was the case handled the way it was? Was there any additional contact between officials at PSU and the DA's Office?

I thought I heard that he was seen getting into a woman's car and that they found cigarette butts or some other evidence that someone had been smoking in his car and he was a rabid anti-smoker. I'm probably remembering that wrong.