PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #12

[J. J. in Phila]

I have read of a few cases where someone did try to commit suicide in such a way that his body would be difficult to discover.

I think there was a case in Georgia where the man dug a shallow grave, covered himself with brush, and then shot himself (I think he had murdered someone else and the police were closing in). It was unsuccessful.

There was a case in Germany where a man committed suicide after tying himself in a tall spruce tree and shot himself. His remains were discovered 29 years later: http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/04/06/us-germany-skeleton-idUSTRE53553020090406

While RFG was familiar with Lewisburg, I'm wondering how familiar he was with the surrounding area.

 

[Hbgchick]

There was a case in Germany where a man committed suicide after tying himself in a tall spruce tree and shot himself. His remains were discovered 29 years later: http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/04/06/us-germany-skeleton-idUSTRE53553020090406

That's pretty fascinating, if you ask me.

 

[BigCat]

I can understand someone attempting to kill himself in such a way that his loved ones wouldn't discover his body; however, I can't imagine why someone would go through the trouble of killing himself in such a way that no one would ever discover the body. That's really bizarre. Who would want to put his loves ones through the agony of never knowing what happened to him?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I can understand someone attempting to kill himself in such a way that his loved ones wouldn't discover his body; however, I can't imagine why someone would go through the trouble of killing himself in such a way that no one would ever discover the body. That's really bizarre. Who would want to put his loves ones through the agony of never knowing what happened to him?

I could understand someone committing suicide in such a way that the body would not be readily recovered. Deliberately would be unusual; successfully doing it would be next to impossible. One case, internationally, is exceptionally rare.

RFG, from what we can tell, did not go down to Lewisburg to scout the area for a good place to kill himself so that his body could not be found. Could he do that without planning?

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped:



We do know that there no plans, dates when he planned to take off reservations, or anything like that, except for a trip to Ohio.

.

I don't know how to get through to you that Patty F. who was living with Ray and working with Ray, said to at least ONE nationally televised cable network on camera, full face, that she and Ray were planning on touring the country when he retired, and that she was also quitting work at that time. She also mentioned them visiting Lara on the West Coast.

I think his impending retirement WAS something they were planning, otherwise she wouldn't have had those very specific things to say.

It's one thing to say " We were going to relax, take a nice vacation somewhere and just enjoy life" in a vague, dreamy- eyed way, but Patty easily gave specifics and didn't appear to be fabricating or hiding anything.

Also, I realize that some people have to make elaborate plans for travel due to physical limitations and problems, but to the best of our knowledge, neither Patty nor Ray had any infirmity or chronic pain condition which would require Ray to make elaborate plans FIVE MONTHS in advance.

They weren't planning to:

1) Travel to a foreign country, so no passport updates were needed ( which could need an extended period to process).

2) Not planning a cruise during peak season.

3) Nor was airline travel involved.

Those three situations are when people usually plan their travel months in advance, and none applies to some car trips here and there. It sounded very informal and relaxed. So it seems to me that there was no need whatsoever for either one of them to make plans that far in advance of his retirement date.

If you are going to say that Patty misrepresented what Ray told her on " Disappeared", then I think you need to also throw out the statements made by every other person which were not substantiated fact, including the statements of Steve Sloane. History has shown him to not be a reliable person of character, if you know what I mean.

I don't think Patty has done or said anything to discredit her personal statements as being factual. There is every possibility that she is also a victim in Ray's disappearance.

People can't just cherry pick the parts that they want to believe in order to have it fit some theory.
MAYBE Patty wasn't the person Ray would have ended up with for the rest of his lifetime, who knows, but there's no reason to think that he wasn't going to travel with her that fall. The trip she mentioned is all we are talking about, not a never-ending trek on the equivalent of a modern " Route 66".

 

[J. J. in Phila]

RFG did not have any trip scheduled. He may have thought about taking a trip at some future point; he may have talked about taking a trip at a future point. He had no firm plans to, except for a trip to Ohio.

I was thinking about taking a trip to Maryland this year, and even mentioned it to a friend. I have changed my mind and won't be. I didn't make any solid plans to take that trip, like arranging for motels, or stopping my mail, or even writing it in my calendar.

It was the same situation with RFG.

 

[SeekingJana]

RFG did not have any trip scheduled. He may have thought about taking a trip at some future point; he may have talked about taking a trip at a future point. He had no firm plans to, except for a trip to Ohio.

I was thinking about taking a trip to Maryland this year, and even mentioned it to a friend. I have changed my mind and won't be. I didn't make any solid plans to take that trip, like arranging for motels, or stopping my mail, or even writing it in my calendar.

It was the same situation with RFG.

J.J., WHY would Ray and Patty need to " make plans" AT LEAST 5 months in advance of a drive at their leisure?

People don't put a hold on mail delivery until the week before they leave.
How do you know what Ray or Patty or both may have had written down in their home regarding future plans on a day planner or a personal organizer?
We don't know whether dates of traveling had been decided or not.

SOME people are spontaneous about travel. I think Ray certainly had displayed some spontaneity in the past. Patty was going along as his companion, not as some sort of worker. It sounded like a relaxing trip, the kind I have made with a spouse MANY times in my adult life.
Drive a few hours, find a pretty place, have dinner, check in at the Hilton or another national name hotel. Get up the next day and travel farther.
See the sights along the way.

It's not unusual for most people to take leisurely, fun, unhurried car trips as couples.
If they were going to a place where lodging might be iffy, I'm sure they would have made reservations in plenty of time.

I decided one July to go to Virginia Beach for the 4th to visit a friend. Was able to reserve an oceanfront room right in Va. Beach at a Hilton the day before through my major credit card's travel agency. The beach was packed with people, but I had a lovely place to stay on less than 24 hours' planning. People who travel frequently know how to do it well.

I really don't think your arguments about Ray and Patty and a road trip or different road trips over the months after his retirement are reality based.

 

[MissJ]

There is no way any of us can say that Ray and Patty had no plans. Most couples have plans and don't announce them to the world. I have done the outwest travel without plans. Drove til I got tired and stopped when I wanted. To say he had no money for retirement...how then did he have money to live if he walked away from his pension? There is no evidence of a secret foreign bank account.

 

[MissJ]

JMO, but some eccentric people keep a lot of cash on hand. I was horrified to find out that my father had almost $50,000, in his house in a fruit jar. For a walk away one would need lots of money. A lot more that would justify giving up a pension and health care insurance.

 

[BigCat]

JMO, but some eccentric people keep a lot of cash on hand. I was horrified to find out that my father had almost $50,000, in his house in a fruit jar. For a walk away one would need lots of money. A lot more that would justify giving up a pension and health care insurance.

I think, in general, security is less of a concern to a man than a woman, especially in comparison to his reputation. How many men have died rather than be thought a coward in the course of human history?

Personally, I don't think a pension and health care insurance is enough to offset the stigma of being known as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky." Just look at the hell Mike McQueary's life has turned into and he did more to stop Sandusky than RFG. If I could have found a way for my daughter to receive my pension, I would have walked away as well, if I were RFG.

Let me make it clear: I'm not suggesting that it's fair that RFG is labeled as the "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky." In fact, the unfairness of the label is all the more reason to walk away.

Of course, I have the benefit of hindsight. Did RFG possess enough foresight to see what the future held and he planned a walkaway? That's a question I have a hard time answering. He would be the ultimate chess master if he did.

JMO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Any "long" trip, even domestically, would have required some planning.

RFG (and PEF) would have to arrange to be off work, would have to do things like make motel reservations. I think that for national parks, arrangements would have to be made.

There was no solid, **We'll be leaving on the 5th and be in Butte, Montana, on the 8th** type of thing.

 

[SeekingJana]

Any "long" trip, even domestically, would have required some planning.

RFG (and PEF) would have to arrange to be off work, would have to do things like make motel reservations. I think that for national parks, arrangements would have to be made.

There was no solid, **We'll be leaving on the 5th and be in Butte, Montana, on the 8th** type of thing.

They were planning to travel after Ray retired, and Patty was also quitting her job at that time, so WHO would need to be off work and WHY?

He was retiring at the end of the year. I would think their travel would commence the next spring.
That's a year after the time frame we are discussing, which is April of the previous year.

J.J., it takes a credit card, a phone and a calendar to make hotel reservations. Those of us who have taken many vacations with partners who tend to be spontaneous KNOW that it is simple and quick to get a room almost anywhere in the USA on almost any day.
Reservations can be made a week before the check in date almost anywhere in this country. If there's one thing the USA has a surplus of, it's empty hotel/ motel rooms.

We do not know what they had written on personal planners regarding traveling or dates marked off or notated. We do not have access to that sort of evidence.
Again, if you are going to call Patty's word into question about the traveling, then go ahead and throw out all of your friend Steve Sloane's comments too. He has a lot less credibility than she does, anyway, due to his drug use and his criminal record regarding drugs.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Respectfully snipped.

They were planning to travel after Ray retired, and Patty was also quitting her job at that time, so WHO would need to be off work and WHY?

He was retiring at the end of the year. I would think their travel would commence the next spring.
That's a year after the time frame we are discussing, which is April of the previous year.

That those are not "plans" but the expression of a general desire. We don't have a record of even the first stages of a trip, like checking costs of motel rooms or flights, or anything other than statements that he wanted to travel after leaving office.

I can state, from doing some traveling, that motel rooms can get booked early. It isn't always possible to just take off, especially for a long trip.

Again, if you are going to call Patty's word into question about the traveling, then go ahead and throw out all of your friend Steve Sloane's comments too. He has a lot less credibility than she does, anyway, due to his drug use and his criminal record regarding drugs.

Sloane indicated that RFG wanted to go to Europe, PEF said that he wanted to travel at some point as did BB. None of those things actually point to RFG planning a trip. Further, the idea that RFG liked to travel may indicate that is what he did.

As for Sloane, I have found him accurate in spite of his pot use.

 

[PPKik]

I think, in general, security is less of a concern to a man than a woman, especially in comparison to his reputation. How many men have died rather than be thought a coward in the course of human history?

Personally, I don't think a pension and health care insurance is enough to offset the stigma of being known as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky." Just look at the hell Mike McQueary's life has turned into and he did more to stop Sandusky than RFG. If I could have found a way for my daughter to receive my pension, I would have walked away as well, if I were RFG.

Let me make it clear: I'm not suggesting that it's fair that RFG is labeled as the "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky." In fact, the unfairness of the label is all the more reason to walk away.

Of course, I have the benefit of hindsight. Did RFG possess enough foresight to see what the future held and he planned a walkaway? That's a question I have a hard time answering. He would be the ultimate chess master if he did.

JMO

If RFG walked away because he didn't want to be labeled as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky," why he wouldn't he have tried to bring charges if he felt that way? He didn't believe it was a prosecutable crime then, so why would he punish himself, his daughter and PF?

Was there more evidence of Sandusky's perverted activities in 2005 that RFG was aware of, or would RFG have been dealing with the same weak evidence he had back in 1998?

And would anyone be thinking he had committed suicide if his brother had not?

Sorry to butt in. I have been aware of this case and disturbed by it for years. Something about it caught my attention here recently.

 

[SeekingJana]

Respectfully snipped.



That those are not "plans" but the expression of a general desire. We don't have a record of even the first stages of a trip, like checking costs of motel rooms or flights, or anything other than statements that he wanted to travel after leaving office.

I can state, from doing some traveling, that motel rooms can get booked early. It isn't always possible to just take off, especially for a long trip.



Sloane indicated that RFG wanted to go to Europe, PEF said that he wanted to travel at some point as did BB. None of those things actually point to RFG planning a trip. Further, the idea that RFG liked to travel may indicate that is what he did.

As for Sloane, I have found him accurate in spite of his pot use.

You are correct, most likely, in saying that there had been no concrete plans made for Ray and Patty's life post- retirement in April, 2005.
The only evidence we have are her and Bob B's statements that the couple planned to travel leisurely.

The lack of far- flung reservations and so forth does not mean that what the couple had talked about and were said to be looking forward to doing wasn't important or correct.

I'd like to leave it as: We don't know, and cannot prove, but were told on a TV show that informal travel was the one post-retirement plan discussed and briefly shared with us, the interested public.

OK?

 

[PPKik]

You are correct, most likely, in saying that there had been no concrete plans made for Ray and Patty's life post- retirement in April, 2005.
The only evidence we have are her and Bob B's statements that the couple planned to travel leisurely.

The lack of far- flung reservations and so forth does not mean that what the couple had talked about and were said to be looking forward to doing wasn't important or correct.

I'd like to leave it as: We don't know, and cannot prove, but were told on a TV show that informal travel was the one post-retirement plan discussed and briefly shared with us, the interested public.

OK?

Could I politely ask a question here? I have not gone back to the beginning of this thread (but will), and was reading last night, and became distracted by reading many pages of the transcripts from the link that was thoughtfully posted here.

My question is, If their plans were more or less definite, or more or less casual or loose, what bearing does this have on RFG's disappearance? Does his trip to Lewisburg have anything to do with this, or is this more a private theory or discussion here? TIA

 

[SeekingJana]

Could I politely ask a question here? I have not gone back to the beginning of this thread (but will), and was reading last night, and became distracted by reading many pages of the transcripts from the link that was thoughtfully posted here.

My question is, If their plans were more or less definite, or more or less casual or loose, what bearing does this have on RFG's disappearance? Does his trip to Lewisburg have anything to do with this, or is this more a private theory or discussion here? TIA

Hi, and welcome to this open discussion of Mr. Gricar's disappearance.

There are several equally weighty possibilities as to what happened to this man, who seemingly disappeared off the face of the Earth on April 15, 2005. His last known appearance was on CCTV camera going into, then later leaving the Centre County courthouse where he had an office as the District Attorney at the time. It has been said by LE and his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, who worked with him at the courthouse, that he phoned his office staff on 4/15 to say he was taking the day off. It is said that he talked to Patty, who answered the phone.

The possibilities of what happened to him are: Suicide, Homicide or Accidental Death, or a planned Walkaway.

What J.J. and I have been discussing is majorly a matter of opinion regarding semantics regarding Ray's plans after retirement.
If you have read here very long, then you probably have an idea that J.J. leans a bit more towards voluntary walkaway.

I am stuck between homicide and walkaway. I lean more towards homicide, although there is no evidence of foul play that we know of, and no remains have ever been found.

So, when the Investigation Discovery channel aired an episode of " Disappeared" and featured Mr. Gricar's case, there were interviews and sound bytes from some of the people close to him regarding what he had said to them personally before he disappeared, or how he had seemed mentally and physically.

Part of his live-in girlfriend's, Patty's, interview was her talking about how they were looking forward to Ray's retirement in December of 2005. She said that they planned to take road trips in their Mini and see the sights along the way, and visit Ray's grown daughter, Lara, who lived in wA state at the time.

I have taken this as " a statement of a plan", whereas J.J. thinks Patty might have embellished somewhat.
The reason being that a person who is planning on leaving his girlfriend and home behind certainly won't be around to take her anywhere the next Spring.

Many Springs have come and gone, and we are no closer to knowing anything about his disappearance factually. So, we do speculate and banter back and forth in a good- natured, 8 year friendship as fellow posters on this case.

This is a difficult time of year for those of us who have stayed close to the case.. April 14 and 15th are only a few days away and I think we are acutely aware of the loss of this fine man from the life he knew in PA most at this time.
Also, there is, for me, a sense of generalized anxiety/ worry regarding whether we will ever know what happened to Mr. Ray Gricar.

Thanks for asking, and please post with us.

 

[PPKik]

Hi, and welcome to this open discussion of Mr. Gricar's disappearance.

There are several equally weighty possibilities as to what happened to this man, who seemingly disappeared off the face of the Earth on April 15, 2005. His last known appearance was on CCTV camera going into, then later leaving the Centre County courthouse where he had an office as the District Attorney at the time. It has been said by LE and his girlfriend, Patty Fornicola, who worked with him at the courthouse, that he phoned his office staff on 4/15 to say he was taking the day off. It is said that he talked to Patty, who answered the phone.

The possibilities of what happened to him are: Suicide, Homicide or Accidental Death, or a planned Walkaway.

What J.J. and I have been discussing is majorly a matter of opinion regarding semantics regarding Ray's plans after retirement.
If you have read here very long, then you probably have an idea that J.J. leans a bit more towards voluntary walkaway.

I am stuck between homicide and walkaway. I lean more towards homicide, although there is no evidence of foul play that we know of, and no remains have ever been found.

So, when the Investigation Discovery channel aired an episode of " Disappeared" and featured Mr. Gricar's case, there were interviews and sound bytes from some of the people close to him regarding what he had said to them personally before he disappeared, or how he had seemed mentally and physically.

Part of his live-in girlfriend's, Patty's, interview was her talking about how they were looking forward to Ray's retirement in December of 2005. She said that they planned to take road trips in their Mini and see the sights along the way, and visit Ray's grown daughter, Lara, who lived in wA state at the time.

I have taken this as " a statement of a plan", whereas J.J. thinks Patty might have embellished somewhat.
The reason being that a person who is planning on leaving his girlfriend and home behind certainly won't be around to take her anywhere the next Spring.

Many Springs have come and gone, and we are no closer to knowing anything about his disappearance factually. So, we do speculate and banter back and forth in a good- natured, 8 year friendship as fellow posters on this case.

This is a difficult time of year for those of us who have stayed close to the case.. April 14 and 15th are only a few days away and I think we are acutely aware of the loss of this fine man from the life he knew in PA most at this time.
Also, there is, for me, a sense of generalized anxiety/ worry regarding whether we will ever know what happened to Mr. Ray Gricar.

Thanks for asking, and please post with us.

Thank you so much for explaining why the traveling plans subject is important to the discussion, and for taking the time to give me such a generous answer by writing such thorough and concise summary.

I remember seeing those CCTV images over and over, wondering about his work lap top when it was found without the hard drive, wondering about the hard drive, and, if both could have sustained the damage they did accidentally, wondering about the cigarette ash in his meticulously kept Mini, whether it was really RFG seen in that antique place, or a case of mistaken identity, and on and on.

Although I haven't followed case here, I did for sometime. I did feel that he was an unusual and more than decent person. The dead ends were too much. I'm not sure what brought me here now. I hadn't realized he had gone missing only a few days from now nine years ago. Thank you.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Welcome.

If RFG walked away because he didn't want to be labeled as "The Man Who Failed to Stop Sandusky," why he wouldn't he have tried to bring charges if he felt that way? He didn't believe it was a prosecutable crime then, so why would he punish himself, his daughter and PF?

Was there more evidence of Sandusky's perverted activities in 2005 that RFG was aware of, or would RFG have been dealing with the same weak evidence he had back in 1998?

No, there is no more evidence and there was no Sandusky file at the office. LE has said he was not working on the case.

As the statute of limitations had not expired, RFG could have filed charges at any time.

And would anyone be thinking he had committed suicide if his brother had not?

Sorry to butt in. I have been aware of this case and disturbed by it for years. Something about it caught my attention here recently.

RFG was acting unusually for anything between 1 to 5 weeks prior to his disappearance. The earliest reports were from 3/8/05. He was described as being unfocused "tired" and "distraught." So, you had that as well.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped

I have taken this as " a statement of a plan", whereas J.J. thinks Patty might have embellished somewhat.
The reason being that a person who is planning on leaving his girlfriend and home behind certainly won't be around to take her anywhere the next Spring.

I would not, and did not, say "embellished."

RFG talked about traveling in retirement. He and PEF may have talked about going across the county in 2006. They didn't have any plan to do so, e.g. **We'll be leaving May 10 and see the family in Dayton for two days, then drive to Chicago, leaving on the morning of May 13.**