PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #13

[shadow of my mind]

The idea that someone used RG’s clothes, dressed up to look like him, and then parade around inside the SOS with a women to attract just enough attention so he would “be remembered” is intriguing.

Is this workable? --- with the fact that the dog did alert that RG’s scent was present where the mini was parked, but not being able to track RG anywhere else even though he was supposedly inside the SOS.

I have always though it odd that the dog could not track him anywhere other than the parking lot even though he was “seen” inside the SOS with the mystery women.

In other words, RG did go to Lewisburg, did park the mini in the parking lot and upon exiting his car was forced, tricked or otherwise coerced back inside his car or possibly into another vehicle.

If so, then this was a well planned. And in my opinion, by someone who was very sure that the local LE would treat the case, at least initially in those crucial first days, as “the DA is probably just off having a fun weekend”. Basically the old circle the wagons routine; to protect the reputation of one of your own.


And Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

We'll have to ask Trackergd, but the change of close seems unlikely or impossible to leave the scent.

 

[MissJ]

The scent only tracked to the parking lot suggests to me, IMO, that he got into another car and didn't walk to wherever he might have gone. But hey, I'm no expert. So he met someone and got in the car with them. Why go to the SOS if he was planning to leave? What was there that he wanted or needed or?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

The scent only tracked to the parking lot suggests to me, IMO, that he got into another car and didn't walk to wherever he might have gone. But hey, I'm no expert. So he met someone and got in the car with them. Why go to the SOS if he was planning to leave? What was there that he wanted or needed or?

The experts agree with you, and so do I.

Now this is not the only answer, but if he wanted another vehicle, wanted a head start before the police started looking for him, this would be the way to do it.

Another answer is that RFG was meeting someone for a clandestine meeting, that went bad.

Both walkaway and foul play can explain this particular piece of evidence.

 

[shadow of my mind]

We'll have to ask Trackergd, but the change of close seems unlikely or impossible to leave the scent.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Since the dog did not track him anywhere except the parking lot, then how does one account for him being "seen" inside the SOS. Why would the dog not track him into the shop.

And I agree --- that someone else dressed in his clothes would not leave a scent, which goes to the support of the idea that it was not actually RG that was seen inside the SOS with a mystery women.

And if was not actually RG that was seen inside the SOS, then that would change the entire current time line.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That is exactly what I'm saying. Since the dog did not track him anywhere except the parking lot, then how does one account for him being "seen" inside the SOS. Why would the dog not track him into the shop.

And I agree --- that someone else dressed in his clothes would not leave a scent, which goes to the support of the idea that it was not actually RG that was seen inside the SOS with a mystery women.

And if was not actually RG that was seen inside the SOS, then that would change the entire current time line.

The scent could have been fresher. It might be an indication that RFG is in the parking later than the other locations.

Another possibility is that he was in the parking lot longer.

A third possibility was that the scent was destroyed or masked by car exhausts.

[I am not sure it they ever did take the dog into the SoS building.]

 

[MissJ]

I'm thinking meeting went bad. Its just difficult for me to grasp that RFG could walk away from his daughter that he obviously loved so much.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm thinking meeting went bad. Its just difficult for me to grasp that RFG could walk away from his daughter that he obviously loved so much.

I could, provided that she was taken care of financially.

That said, I would not rule out a clandestine meeting gone bad. The problem is, just about the reasons for meeting someone clandestinely do not make RFG look particularly good.

 

[Trackergd]

It would be unlikely that someone wearing RFG's clothing would leave a scent trail. Due to the strong scent in the parking lot, it would suggest that was where he was last. If LE did not take the dog into town where he was seen or into the SOS, that opportunity has been lost. The fact the dog could not establish a scent trail leading into our out of the parking lot suggests 1. RFG spent an extended period of time there (higher concentration of skin cells) 2. The scent trail outside of the parking lot was contaminated by other scents and/or auto exhaust, other animals etc. and 3. RFG entered another vehicle that left the area. Odd that there was no scent in the park near where the computer was thrown. I would not have expected a scent trail on the bridge (had they thought of it) due to vehicle traffic wind and exhaust.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

It would be unlikely that someone wearing RFG's clothing would leave a scent trail. Due to the strong scent in the parking lot, it would suggest that was where he was last. If LE did not take the dog into town where he was seen or into the SOS, that opportunity has been lost. The fact the dog could not establish a scent trail leading into our out of the parking lot suggests 1. RFG spent an extended period of time there (higher concentration of skin cells) 2. The scent trail outside of the parking lot was contaminated by other scents and/or auto exhaust, other animals etc. and 3. RFG entered another vehicle that left the area. Odd that there was no scent in the park near where the computer was thrown. I would not have expected a scent trail on the bridge (had they thought of it) due to vehicle traffic wind and exhaust.

Could the scent have been fresher in the parking lot? The dogs were brought in on 4/17, afternoon. That would be about 48 hours after RFG was across from the Packwood House Museum. He could have been in the parking lot 24 hours later.

He also went at the bridge area by car and entered the parking lot the same way. I'm not sure if his scent would be strong enough to trace him back there.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

I could, provided that she was taken care of financially.

That said, I would not rule out a clandestine meeting gone bad. The problem is, just about the reasons for meeting someone clandestinely do not make RFG look particularly good.

JJ I am not here to down anyone on what they say I am here to see what fits with something also not knowing what was even going on my eyes and ears were not glued to the TV or paper at that time but they are now you all knew alot more than me I still can undrestand why the interviewer who asked about underwear to a person I could not understand that question I do think everything went down before 11:30 am friday morning and then it was play time for who was involved to make it look like RG was here there and everywhere you asked how did he get out of lewisburg maybe he didn"t I am looking what fits with a peice

 

[J. J. in Phila]

For the underwear, it could be used in identifying a body, or even finding them as evidence.

 

[Trackergd]

Could the scent have been fresher in the parking lot? The dogs were brought in on 4/17, afternoon. That would be about 48 hours after RFG was across from the Packwood House Museum. He could have been in the parking lot 24 hours later.

He also went at the bridge area by car and entered the parking lot the same way. I'm not sure if his scent would be strong enough to trace him back there.

It is possible the scent was fresher in the parking lot, however I would have expected an experienced ground scent dog to have picked up on even a trace sent going into our out of the parking lot.

A scent trail going across the bridge was an extension on the scenario he went across the bridge to access the wooded areas to the East and North on the other side of the river.

 

[shadow of my mind]

It is possible the scent was fresher in the parking lot, however I would have expected an experienced ground scent dog to have picked up on even a trace sent going into our out of the parking lot.

A scent trail going across the bridge was an extension on the scenario he went across the bridge to access the wooded areas to the East and North on the other side of the river.

Is there any information on who the person/organization was that handled the dog and stats on performance levels?

I may be mistaken, but I thought that there is some type of accuracy test or accreditation that must be met that is the basis for LE to be able to get search warrants and not have any findings tossed during any subsequent trial. Maybe this applies more to cadaver and drug dogs than tracking dogs.

My knowledge about what goes into the specialized training that a tracking dog and his handler must go through to be considered qualified is extremely limited. I am aware that rigorous training is involved and that there is a tremendous devotion and huge amounts of time and funds spent by the handler to do what they do before they even go out to search. Then there is also the natural abilities of certain breeds that lend themselves to certain situations of the searches that also go into it.

I guess what I am asking is --- was the handler/dog "good enough" to be able to actually use the information to base theories on?

 

[Trackergd]

<respectfully snipped for space>

I guess what I am asking is --- was the handler/dog "good enough" to be able to actually use the information to base theories on?

I think a while back, J.J. confirmed that it was a bloodhound. Other than that, I have no idea. I have seen all manner of dogs brought into searches as "Search
Dogs" Some were trained dogs with experienced handlers and some were police bite dogs with no scent trailing experience.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think a while back, J.J. confirmed that it was a bloodhound. Other than that, I have no idea. I have seen all manner of dogs brought into searches as "Search
Dogs" Some were trained dogs with experienced handlers and some were police bite dogs with no scent trailing experience.

The press reported that the dog was a bloodhound. He was brought in on 4/17 so it is unlikely to have been a police dog.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

The press reported that the dog was a bloodhound. He was brought in on 4/17 so it is unlikely to have been a police dog.

JJ the dress up thing is a thought the next one is how many different females was RG seen with and could a few women gang up on him or help him along the way to his new life and if a female was in the mini would she leave a scent behind or no trace at all?????

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

also if someone was 30 feet from RG would they be able to ID him or if they were 10 feet a way could they or if they were 3 feet a way from him and the fact if they know of him would they be able to ID him

 

[J. J. in Phila]

JJ the dress up thing is a thought the next one is how many different females was RG seen with and could a few women gang up on him or help him along the way to his new life and if a female was in the mini would she leave a scent behind or no trace at all?????

I only know of one description for the Lewisburg Mystery Woman.

 

[Fromthedeepestjungle]

I only know of one description for the Lewisburg Mystery Woman.

wasn't he seen with a older female up north or somewhere