PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #14

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However I do wonder if RG met her to exchange information. Possibly about PS and Sandusky.

What I can say something got him up and driving and like I asked before would he pick up a hitch hiker male or female along the road also I cant get the count on how many red and white minis were driving around I would like to know which way all of them drove into lewisburg and at what time but I guess that will be off limits i been wanting to take another drive back down there I was going to see who did all the construction work back in 2005 to a certain point I do know alot of place changed and tore down and rebuilt my thought is I dont think he left lewisburg
 
Of all the sightings of RG the Fenton sighting is the most credible. Unfortunately LE has zero confirmed sightings.😔
 
Of all the sightings of RG the Fenton sighting is the most credible. Unfortunately LE has zero confirmed sightings.😔

If the Fenton sighting is correct, RG did not go missing from Lewisburg. He may have gone to Lewisburg to meet someone and to dispose of the laptop, but going missing from Bellefonte is a far cry from from going missing from Lewisburg. And why leave the Mini in Lewisburg?
 
However I do wonder if RG met her to exchange information. Possibly about PS and Sandusky.

Shortly after he turned 21, one of Sandusky's victims was arrested in February 2005 on a conspiracy charge over some incident that occurred in October 2004 (I never was able to find out what the incident was). Interestingly enough, he was represented by Stacy Parks Miller. This case played out between February and May of 2005, and eventually the charges were dropped due to insufficient evidence.

So we know that SPM had contact in February 2005 with someone who would later be revealed to be a Sandusky victim. Now, couple that with fromthedeepestjungle's alleged eyewitness account of seeing Gricar with a blonde lady in the morning of 4/15 (which he/she has said resembled SPM). And the evidence that Gricar and SPM had exchanged emails on 4/14 (presumably business related).... and...

so... wild speculation... Is it possible SPM's client revealed his abuse to her? And if so, did she go to Ray and say "drop these charges because my client can give you something MUCH bigger"? Then, Gricar and SPM take a drive around 9 or 10 AM on 4/15 to discuss her client's allegations, because its not safe to discuss them in the courthouse? Or maybe SPM's client gave them the name of someone who could corroborate his allegations, and they went together to interview this person? At some point, he takes SPM back to her office in State College. And at that point, he either feels like taking a drive down Brush Valley to reflect on the information he just received, or perhaps there's something or someone in Lewisburg he feels the need to investigate. At about 11:30, he calls Patty as he's passing through Centre Hall to let her know he's not going to be into work and that he's driving down Brush Valley.

Just some thoughts I've had for awhile. It is a fact that SPM represented a young man who would later be revealed to be a Sandusky victim around the time Gricar went missing. It is also a fact that SPM and Gricar exchanged emails on 4/14. Our friend fromthedeepestjungle insists he saw Gricar earlier in the morning on 4/15 (like around 9 or 10) in the mini with a blonde woman that he thinks could be SPM. I talked to ftdj privately, and I believe him. He had interacted with Gricar (and JKA) many times over the course of a few years and absolutely knew what Gricar looked like. He says he can't be certain that the blonde was SPM, because he did not necessarily know her all that well or what she looked like at the time. Then there's the dictaphone Sloane "found", which had the tape from a meeting at PSU in Oct '98. Is it possible Ray was trying to refresh his memory after receiving info from SPM/her client, and that's why a seven year old tape was the last tape in Gricar's dictaphone?

Sorry to be long-winded. Just thinking out loud.
 
Of all the sightings of RG the Fenton sighting is the most credible. Unfortunately LE has zero confirmed sightings.��

If actual, it would make walk away highly probable. I'm far from convinced that it is actual, however.
 
If the Fenton sighting is correct, RG did not go missing from Lewisburg. He may have gone to Lewisburg to meet someone and to dispose of the laptop, but going missing from Bellefonte is a far cry from from going missing from Lewisburg. And why leave the Mini in Lewisburg?

The car would, in that circumstance, be a way to have everyone looking in Lewisbirg while RFG is elsewhere.
 
I am snipping to show only those parts that don't work.

So we know that SPM had contact in February 2005 with someone who would later be revealed to be a Sandusky victim. Now, couple that with fromthedeepestjungle's alleged eyewitness account of seeing Gricar with a blonde lady in the morning of 4/15 (which he/she has said resembled SPM). And the evidence that Gricar and SPM had exchanged emails on 4/14 (presumably business related).... and...

We know when he was on the road, and it was late morning. An early morning witness could not be accurate. The only blond that I heard about was from Ivy Butterworth.

Then, Gricar and SPM take a drive around 9 or 10 AM on 4/15 to discuss her client's allegations, because its not safe to discuss them in the courthouse? Or maybe SPM's client gave them the name of someone who could corroborate his allegations, and they went together to interview this person? At some point, he takes SPM back to her office in State College. And at that point, he either feels like taking a drive down Brush Valley to reflect on the information he just received, or perhaps there's something or someone in Lewisburg he feels the need to investigate. At about 11:30, he calls Patty as he's passing through Centre Hall to let her know he's not going to be into work and that he's driving down Brush Valley.

First, if Fenton is accurate, RFG was driving a different car. That doesn't fit in with this scenario. As a subpoint, while the firm SPM was with does have a Bellefonte office, it is about a block away from the Courthouse. Why wouldn't RFG drop her off closer

Second, why doesn't SPM come forward in 2005? As a subpoint, why does RFG not tell Patty, and say he wouldn't be in that day? If this was official, why didn't he say so?

Third, why wouldn't the Courthouse be "safe?" SPM could do there and say it involed her client.

For me, the third point is the hardest to overcome. Why wouldn't RFG or the other person want to be seen together in public? That question basically eliminates staff and all defense attorneys.

Is it possible Ray was trying to refresh his memory after receiving info from SPM/her client, and that's why a seven year old tape was the last tape in Gricar's dictaphone?

The only things on the tape were when there was a meeting, when it was, and who was there. Even the subject isn't on the tape. How would RFG know what Sloane had recorded almost 7 years before?

All that said, theory has some merit, especially if that third point could be overcome.
 
I am snipping to show only those parts that don't work.



We know when he was on the road, and it was late morning. An early morning witness could not be accurate. The only blond that I heard about was from Ivy Butterworth.



First, if Fenton is accurate, RFG was driving a different car. That doesn't fit in with this scenario. As a subpoint, while the firm SPM was with does have a Bellefonte office, it is about a block away from the Courthouse. Why wouldn't RFG drop her off closer

Second, why doesn't SPM come forward in 2005? As a subpoint, why does RFG not tell Patty, and say he wouldn't be in that day? If this was official, why didn't he say so?

Third, why wouldn't the Courthouse be "safe?" SPM could do there and say it involed her client.

For me, the third point is the hardest to overcome. Why wouldn't RFG or the other person want to be seen together in public? That question basically eliminates staff and all defense attorneys.



The only things on the tape were when there was a meeting, when it was, and who was there. Even the subject isn't on the tape. How would RFG know what Sloane had recorded almost 7 years before?

All that said, theory has some merit, especially if that third point could be overcome.

Oh Ivy Butterworth if she did see the female and like she said WOW BIG HAIR to Dateline interviewer at the sos then to me there are 2 females involved why because the one in his car did not have big hair or she put a wig on hey JJ you and the others dont need to believe this I do like what everyone is talking but I cant match to much up it does not fit for what was told
 
Oh Ivy Butterworth if she did see the female and like she said WOW BIG HAIR to Dateline interviewer at the sos then to me there are 2 females involved why because the one in his car did not have big hair or she put a wig on hey JJ you and the others dont need to believe this I do like what everyone is talking but I cant match to much up it does not fit for what was told

It is not a question of believing any poster but of Butterworth's accuracy. The description she gave does not match the description LE (finally) gave out.
 
Friday was RFG's 70th birthday.

As I wrote a while ago, there is the possibility that he did walk away and has since died.
 
wijg's post along with the information from ftdj, if true (even with the points of contention) seems to support the Fenton sighting given that SPM or associate may have been dropped off previous to Fenton sighting RG. It would give him a reason to drive back to Bellefonte. The only ways to explain RG driving a different car and the mini being left in Lewisburg is he intended to go pick it up later or it was left as a "plant", and that gives us pause to wonder why.
 
wijg's post along with the information from ftdj, if true (even with the points of contention) seems to support the Fenton sighting given that SPM or associate may have been dropped off previous to Fenton sighting RG. It would give him a reason to drive back to Bellefonte. The only ways to explain RG driving a different car and the mini being left in Lewisburg is he intended to go pick it up later or it was left as a "plant", and that gives us pause to wonder why.

I agree... I need to correct one thing with regards to ftdj's sighting though. I mistakenly said it was in Centre Hall. It wasn't. It was actually in Lewisburg. He saw Gricar and a good looking blonde traveling east on Rt. 45, and then turning left onto Rt.15 right as they got into Lewisburg. After turning onto Rt. 15, they went a couple hundred feet before turning right onto an unmarked street/alley. I traded several messages over the last few months with ftdj, and better understanding his background and knowing all the other little details he has shared with me, I have to say I find his sighting as credible as any. Perhaps more credible than most. Unlike the people in the SOS, ftdj had interacted with Gricar on a handful of occasions before and knew what he looked like.

So... for those who choose to believe ftdj's story, Gricar was in Lewisburg by 9:30-10:00 on 4/15. And that changes everything.

I also checked who owns the buildings back by where ftdj said Gricar turned (most likely Cherry Alley in Lewisburg). One particular address stood out: 60 N 8th St.... owned by Concern Professional Services... they're basically a private child and youth services organization providing counseling, foster placement, etc, for at-risk youth. I just found that out today. So that would fit in with our hypothetical that he and SPM traveled together to maybe speak with someone (a counselor or kid maybe???) that could validate SPM's client's claims.
 
If "fromthedeepestjungle" is correct in their sighting then RG was already in Lewisburg, with a blonde, prior to the 11:15am phone call. How does that change your thinking?
 
Shortly after he turned 21, one of Sandusky's victims was arrested in February 2005 on a conspiracy charge over some incident that occurred in October 2004 (I never was able to find out what the incident was). Interestingly enough, he was represented by Stacy Parks Miller. This case played out between February and May of 2005, and eventually the charges were dropped due to insufficient evidence.

So we know that SPM had contact in February 2005 with someone who would later be revealed to be a Sandusky victim. Now, couple that with fromthedeepestjungle's alleged eyewitness account of seeing Gricar with a blonde lady in the morning of 4/15 (which he/she has said resembled SPM). And the evidence that Gricar and SPM had exchanged emails on 4/14 (presumably business related).... and...

so... wild speculation... Is it possible SPM's client revealed his abuse to her? And if so, did she go to Ray and say "drop these charges because my client can give you something MUCH bigger"? Then, Gricar and SPM take a drive around 9 or 10 AM on 4/15 to discuss her client's allegations, because its not safe to discuss them in the courthouse? Or maybe SPM's client gave them the name of someone who could corroborate his allegations, and they went together to interview this person? At some point, he takes SPM back to her office in State College. And at that point, he either feels like taking a drive down Brush Valley to reflect on the information he just received, or perhaps there's something or someone in Lewisburg he feels the need to investigate. At about 11:30, he calls Patty as he's passing through Centre Hall to let her know he's not going to be into work and that he's driving down Brush Valley.

Just some thoughts I've had for awhile. It is a fact that SPM represented a young man who would later be revealed to be a Sandusky victim around the time Gricar went missing. It is also a fact that SPM and Gricar exchanged emails on 4/14. Our friend fromthedeepestjungle insists he saw Gricar earlier in the morning on 4/15 (like around 9 or 10) in the mini with a blonde woman that he thinks could be SPM. I talked to ftdj privately, and I believe him. He had interacted with Gricar (and JKA) many times over the course of a few years and absolutely knew what Gricar looked like. He says he can't be certain that the blonde was SPM, because he did not necessarily know her all that well or what she looked like at the time. Then there's the dictaphone Sloane "found", which had the tape from a meeting at PSU in Oct '98. Is it possible Ray was trying to refresh his memory after receiving info from SPM/her client, and that's why a seven year old tape was the last tape in Gricar's dictaphone?

Sorry to be long-winded. Just thinking out loud.

Great post!!!
 
If actual, it would make walk away highly probable. I'm far from convinced that it is actual, however.

It that's the case then so be it JJ. I truly am in this for a resolution.....whatever that may be. I still believe foul play is the top scenario even with the Fenton sighting but I understand why you said that.
 
If actual, it would make walk away highly probable. I'm far from convinced that it is actual, however.

I agree... I need to correct one thing with regards to ftdj's sighting though. I mistakenly said it was in Centre Hall. It wasn't. It was actually in Lewisburg. He saw Gricar and a good looking blonde traveling east on Rt. 45, and then turning left onto Rt.15 right as they got into Lewisburg. After turning onto Rt. 15, they went a couple hundred feet before turning right onto an unmarked street/alley. I traded several messages over the last few months with ftdj, and better understanding his background and knowing all the other little details he has shared with me, I have to say I find his sighting as credible as any. Perhaps more credible than most. Unlike the people in the SOS, ftdj had interacted with Gricar on a handful of occasions before and knew what he looked like.

So... for those who choose to believe ftdj's story, Gricar was in Lewisburg by 9:30-10:00 on 4/15. And that changes everything.

I also checked who owns the buildings back by where ftdj said Gricar turned (most likely Cherry Alley in Lewisburg). One particular address stood out: 60 N 8th St.... owned by Concern Professional Services... they're basically a private child and youth services organization providing counseling, foster placement, etc, for at-risk youth. I just found that out today. So that would fit in with our hypothetical that he and SPM traveled together to maybe speak with someone (a counselor or kid maybe???) that could validate SPM's client's claims.

That jogs my memory. I checked that youth services place out when the Sandusky story broke. I think deep jungle led me to it when we were still posting on TruTV. I also remember it being connected to 2m in some way.
 
Just started. Reading into this story - can someone give me a quick run down of his computer activity and what we know so far about what was on his?

Also I'd really appreciate it if you more experienced members could tell me any facts that they think someone should know about the story please? :) TIA and lots of love


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If "fromthedeepestjungle" is correct in their sighting then RG was already in Lewisburg, with a blonde, prior to the 11:15am phone call. How does that change your thinking?

Even considering that, there is still a major problem with this scenario.

If RFG was in Lewisburg at 9:30 AM, he'd have to leave around 8:30-45. He would have to drive back to Centre Hall in the Mini, turn around, and be spotted by the Courthouse worker, at about 11:30 AM and make the call. Then he would have to drive back to Lewisburg, leave the Mini Cooper and someplace, get another car. Then, some time around 2:00 PM, leave and get to the Courthouse, in the different car, and be spotted by Fenton and Grine. Why do all that? Any why would he switch cars?

Now, the theory that SPM was him, or that he was at the other child services site regarding Sandusky, or both, has numerous problems. Why doesn't he tell PEF or the office that he'd be there? It would be part of his official duties. Why doesn't some at the child services place come forward; 96 hours later RFG was front page news in Lewisburg. If SPM was with him, why doesn't she say something?

I think these aspects of the theory don't work.
 
https://happyvalleycitizen.wordpres...s-on-the-brink-of-scandal-and-in-deep--again/
 
RachaelLouise, hear is a summary of the case:

Mr. Gricar was first elected District Attorney in 1985, and had been re-elected four times since then. Prior to becoming District Attorney, he had served as an assistant district attorney for about five years, in Centre County, and about ten years in his native state of Ohio. In January 2004, he announced he would not seek re-election and retire from the practice of law at the end of his term, in December of 2005.

On 4/15/05, he decided to the day off work. He called his girlfriend and employee, Patty Fornicola, at about 11:15-30 AM from the Centre Hall area. He said that he was on Route 192, heading toward Lewisburg, and that he wouldn’t be able to walk the dog. That was the last reported contact with anyone who knew him. A Courthouse worker who was in in Centre Hall saw Mr. Gricar turn on Route 192, heading in the direction of Lewisburg.

Sometime between Noon and 2:00 PM, at least three witnesses, including Jennifer Snyder, an employee at the Packwood House Museum, saw Mr. Gricar parked along Water Street, just off of Market Street (Route 45), in Lewisburg. He was the car he was driving, a red 2004 Mini Cooper, between the three spaces across from the museum.

At 3:00 PM, back in Bellefonte, Carolyn Fenton, a law clerk to Judge David Grine, saw Mr. Gricar in a different car, behind the Court House. No one else has corroborated this sighting. Judge Grine could not remember if it was 4/14 or 4/15.

Sometime between 4:00 PM and 5:00 PM, a man driving to Harrisburg from Lock Haven, pulled parallel to a red Mini Cooper near the Country Cupboard on Route 15, just north of Lewisburg. He remembered what the driver looked like. When he saw the story in the newspaper, he recognized Mr. Gricar’s photo.

At about 5:00 PM, numerous people saw the Mini Cooper arrive at the parking lot across from the Street of Shop. At least two saw Mr. Gricar moving the Mini back and forth in the parking lot, changing spaces.

Sometime after that, two business owners in the Street of Shops, Brad Alvey and an unidentified owner, saw Mr. Gricar in the Street of Shops. One saw him with a woman; it looked like they were together to the owner.

Around 11:00 PM that evening, a worried Ms. Fornicola called the police. Within an hour, there was a Be On the Look Out issued on Mr. Gricar. By the next morning, the Bellefonte Police began calling his friends and co-workers. They also checked his cell phone records and determined that the call was carried by the tower in the Brush Valley area.

On 4/16/05, between 11:30 AM and Noon, two workers in the Street of Shops spotted Mr. Gricar there. Around Noon, the owner, Craig Bennett, saw him standing there. This is all the information that has been released on the witnesses for both days.

The police began a search of the Brush Valley, along Route 192, in the afternoon. This included an aerial search.

At about 6:30 PM, the Mini Cooper was discovered in the parking lot at the Street of Shops. Mr. Gricar’s cell phone was inside. There was a trace of cigarette ash on the passenger side floor, and when first opened, there was the scent of cigarette smoke. Mr. Gricar was a non smoker and did not permit smoking in his car. The car was taken to the State Police Barracks in Milton.

On 4/17/05, the Susquehanna River was searched from the air. A bloodhound was brought in, in the late morning. The dog detected Mr. Gricar’s scent in the parking lot, but not beyond. It stopped and circled; the handler thought it was indicative of Mr. Gricar getting into another car.

On 4/18/05, there was the famous, or perhaps infamous, news conference with Ms. Fornicola and Mr. Gricar’s daughter, Lara. That was during the day. . The Wilkes-Barre sighting was ruled out as being Mr. Gricar.

There was also a witness sighting in May 2005, in Southfield, MI. There were several others, but they have been discounted. This one was never ruled out, or ruled in.

In late July of 2005, Mr. Gricar’s laptop, minus the hard drive, was found in the water on the northern side of the bridge in Lewisburg; the no foot path on that side and, if dropped from a car, the car would be heading toward Lewisburg (and Bellefonte).

In September 2005, the drive that fit the computer was found, basically across the park from the Packwood House. No data could be recovered from it. In July, Ms. Fornicola was polygraphed; in September, Lara Gricar was polygraphed. Both passed.

In April of 2009 the police released information that Gricar had been doing searches on his home computer for "how to fry a hard drive" "and similar term, in the months prior to his disappearance.

In May of 2011, Lara Gricar petitioned to her father declared dead; the petition was granted in July of 2011.

(This was adapted from a blog.)
 
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