PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #15

[J. J. in Phila]

How long did this person work at the prison JJ ?( Rockview)

That I don't know.

 

[SuperSmith]

Two problems:

1. According to the police, there was no reference to Sandusky in anything RFG had.

2. Jeffry's alleged crimes took place in 2013; RFG vanished in 2005.

Two problems

1. According to the police and an expert recovery team, the hard drive found in the river was unreadable. So there's that...

2. Jeffry's alleged crimes took place in 2013; this does of course leave the door open to possibly other victims "prior" to 2013 that have not yet been reported or alledged.

 

[SuperSmith]

August 2015 he was hired by Rockview

https://www.google.com/search?q=717-249-3354&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

 

[SuperSmith]

Lance Marshall will be defending him bahahahah

 

[DeDee]

Two problems:

1. According to the police, there was no reference to Sandusky in anything RFG had.

2. Jeffry's alleged crimes took place in 2013; RFG vanished in 2005.

That tells me that they should have found something on Sandusky since RG had been investigating him.

Here is my theory. RG is going to meet someone. He speaks to his SO while she is at work and he is driving. She knows who RG was going to meet. RG was not roaming the shops with anyone b/c he never made it to the shops. Only his car did. That takes me back to RGs SO. What did she know and when did she know it.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

That tells me that they should have found something on Sandusky since RG had been investigating him.

Here is my theory. RG is going to meet someone. He speaks to his SO while she is at work and he is driving. She knows who RG was going to meet. RG was not roaming the shops with anyone b/c he never made it to the shops. Only his car did. That takes me back to RGs SO. What did she know and when did she know it.

There are a number of independent witnesses that put him Lewisburg from roughly 12:30 PM on 4/15/05; several put him in the SoS late afternoon to early evening.

There are also witnesses to him driving there and there were multiple ways he could have gotten to Lewisburg. I don't have any realistic theory to how he could have been ambushed, en route.

After he got to Lewisburg, it becomes possible.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Two problems

1. According to the police and an expert recovery team, the hard drive found in the river was unreadable. So there's that...

2. Jeffry's alleged crimes took place in 2013; this does of course leave the door open to possibly other victims "prior" to 2013 that have not yet been reported or alledged.

1. There has been no suggestion that, in its original form, any of the 1998 evidence was digitized; there are references to things like picking up the Chambers Report. For it to be digitized and not found it would have had to been digitized, but the original hard copy would either be in a file some place or destroyed. It is not on file.

The implication would then be that RFG kept it in digital form, after destroying the originals, and did not file it in the office. Further, he kept no back up copy. Now, I can think of a few reasons a district attorney would do that, but most are illegal.

2. We still don't have any earlier reports on Jeffry; further, they were in their early teens. It doesn't match up age wise that he would be molesting children 3-5 years old.

 

[DeDee]

There are a number of independent witnesses that put him Lewisburg from roughly 12:30 PM on 4/15/05; several put him in the SoS late afternoon to early evening.

There are also witnesses to him driving there and there were multiple ways he could have gotten to Lewisburg. I don't have any realistic theory to how he could have been ambushed, en route.

After he got to Lewisburg, it becomes possible.

Didn't the witness at one of the shops state that he was with a female? That doesn't make sense. Why would he go shopping with a woman minutes before he disappears forever? Unless we have CCTV of RG parking his tiny vehicle where he did, then I may never believe that he parked his car himself. Whoever parked his car also tossed his computer into the Susquehanna River.

Admittedly, I have a confirmation bias. I believe his disappearance has to do with Penn State. I think RG suspected the meeting may not go too well and acknowledged this to his SO during their [strained] phone conversation. So why hasn't she told us who RG was going to meet? Is she too frightened to tell?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Didn't the witness at one of the shops state that he was with a female? That doesn't make sense. Why would he go shopping with a woman minutes before he disappears forever? Unless we have CCTV of RG parking his tiny vehicle where he did, then I may never believe that he parked his car himself. Whoever parked his car also tossed his computer into the Susquehanna River.

Admittedly, I have a confirmation bias. I believe his disappearance has to do with Penn State. I think RG suspected the meeting may not go too well and acknowledged this to his SO during their [strained] phone conversation. So why hasn't she told us who RG was going to meet? Is she too frightened to tell?

At least two witnesses reported seeing RFG in the SoS on 4/15 after 5:00 PM with a woman. Now that opens some possibilities:

1. The woman just someone who stuck up a conversation with RFG.

2. The woman was the person that RFG planned to meet, because:

A. She was his lover.

B. She was going to help him walk away.

C. She lured him there to murder him.

D. There were going to be involved in some clandestine (and probably illegal) activity.

3. RFG was hoping that, by speaking to her, would establish that he was in Lewisburg, i.e. she may come forward. Likewise, he might have hoped LE would think he was spending the weekend with a woman and not seriously search for him.

4. The witnesses made a mistake and either it wasn't RFG or the woman was not with him.

I think that covers just about everything.

Several witnesses saw him driving the vehicle in the parking lot across from the SoS. The timing is around 5:00 PM on 4/15, which fits with him being in the SoS after 5:00 PM and matches McKnight's witnesses. A bloodhound detected his scent in the lot.

RFG has expressed an interest in getting the data off the laptop and did the Google searches. He was seen, earlier in the afternoon, in the area (within 25 yards) of where the drive was tossed. I think it is likely he tossed it.

Since RFG used it for personal things, I don't think it is strange.

 

[DeDee]

At least two witnesses reported seeing RFG in the SoS on 4/15 after 5:00 PM with a woman. Now that opens some possibilities:

1. The woman just someone who stuck up a conversation with RFG.

2. The woman was the person that RFG planned to meet, because:

A. She was his lover.

B. She was going to help him walk away.

C. She lured him there to murder him.

D. There were going to be involved in some clandestine (and probably illegal) activity.

1. Can't we safely assume the witness knew if the two were conversing over, let's just say an antique item, and walked away holding hands? I've seen eye witnesses that have put the wrong folks in jail with their testimony.

2. That is pushing the envelope to assume that:
A RG had a lover. No proof to support this.
B RG did not walk away. He took no money. No vehicle. Is he homeless in the streets of NYC? Why would he walk away from a state pension he worked his entire career to earn?
C Women don't typically murder men who love them. So, somehow she lures him, then gets a gun on RG and takes him somewhere to murder him which he had already tossed his computer that she wanted but maybe she did not know this part.
D RG does not go to work. Instead he gets himself killed when he went to meet someone. RG was an Officer of the Court. He was not of criminal mind. He never had a black mark against his name until he disappeared without a trace.

3. RFG was hoping that, by speaking to her, would establish that he was in Lewisburg, i.e. she may come forward. Likewise, he might have hoped LE would think he was spending the weekend with a woman and not seriously search for him.

4. The witnesses made a mistake and either it wasn't RFG or the woman was not with him.

I think that covers just about everything.

Several witnesses saw him driving the vehicle in the parking lot across from the SoS. The timing is around 5:00 PM on 4/15, which fits with him being in the SoS after 5:00 PM and matches McKnight's witnesses. A bloodhound detected his scent in the lot.

RFG has expressed an interest in getting the data off the laptop and did the Google searches. He was seen, earlier in the afternoon, in the area (within 25 yards) of where the drive was tossed. I think it is likely he tossed it.

Since RFG used it for personal things, I don't think it is strange.

3 RGs tiny car is in Lewisburg. There is no other reason required, such as a female companion, to prove to LE that he was in town. It never once crossed my mind that RG may be enjoying a weekend rendezvous. RG was the DA. He knew folks would be looking for him. He would have been reported as missing very shortly by his SO. I don't recall when she reported it. Maybe the next day?

4 The witness made a mistake!

What would force a DA to toss his computer into a cold river? Was RG a bipolar personality? His behavior the night before at the office and the day of his death missing is shrouded in mystery. Getting rid of the computer is too coincidental. Coincidences are clues.

The eyewitnesses who saw RG driving makes me wonder how they recognized him. He's just an average guy. His CAR was a bit unique enough to stand out but I don't think witnesses could positively ID the driver as being RG. Now, I do believe trained dogs more than I do eyewitnesses. I'll agree RG was at one point in time standing in the parking lot where his vehicle was discovered.

:tyou: I realize you are a case expert so I'm attempting not to feel intimidated nor be argumentative. I, too, would love to know for sure what happened to RG. I still lean on the Penn State investigation as being what got him murdered. RG uncovered far too much. I realize one of your pet theories is that RG walked away. I don't. That happens so rarely, unless he had an underlying mental condition.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

1. Can't we safely assume the witness knew if the two were conversing over, let's just say an antique item, and walked away holding hands? I've seen eye witnesses that have put the wrong folks in jail with their testimony.

There was no physical contact that I know of; there are no reports of holding hands.

2. That is pushing the envelope to assume that:
A RG had a lover. No proof to support this.
B RG did not walk away. He took no money. No vehicle. Is he homeless in the streets of NYC? Why would he walk away from a state pension he worked his entire career to earn?
C Women don't typically murder men who love them. So, somehow she lures him, then gets a gun on RG and takes him somewhere to murder him which he had already tossed his computer that she wanted but maybe she did not know this part.
D RG does not go to work. Instead he gets himself killed when he went to meet someone. RG was an Officer of the Court. He was not of criminal mind. He never had a black mark against his name until he disappeared without a trace.

We don't know if RFG had a lover or not. He had a reputation as a "ladies man."

The money issue has been discussed. I would not assume that he would have no access to money.

Women do murder men, or may lure men to be murdered. Missing people a typically missing because they want to be missing. I would not say, at this point, that this disappearance is typical.

I have known other officers of the court to break the law, one close, personally and professionally, to RFG.

3 RGs tiny car is in Lewisburg. There is no other reason required, such as a female companion, to prove to LE that he was in town. It never once crossed my mind that RG may be enjoying a weekend rendezvous. RG was the DA. He knew folks would be looking for him. He would have been reported as missing very shortly by his SO. I don't recall when she reported it. Maybe the next day?

He was reported missing after roughly 12 hours. While married to his second wife, after an argument, he went to Cleveland for a game and was away overnight, all with telling his then wife. There was no report, and RFG could have assumed it would be something similar.

4 The witness made a mistake!

In seeing im with a woman, it is possible. There was no physical evidence he was in the SoS, though at least two witnesses reported it. It becomes harder when the witnesses saw him in the Mini, and in a spot where there is physical evidence (the parking lot).

[/quote]What would force a DA to toss his computer into a cold river? Was RG a bipolar personality? His behavior the night before at the office and the day of his death missing is shrouded in mystery. Getting rid of the computer is too coincidental. Coincidences are clues.[/quote]

I think this statement assumes too much. It was fairly common for RFG to go to the office in the evening. There is no suggested that RFG was "forced" to toss the laptop, on that he had a desire for the data on it nit to be revealed; that was long term. There were reports of RFG behavior being unusual, but people ad been noting that for 4-5 weeks.

The eyewitnesses who saw RG driving makes me wonder how they recognized him. He's just an average guy. His CAR was a bit unique enough to stand out but I don't think witnesses could positively ID the driver as being RG. Now, I do believe trained dogs more than I do eyewitnesses. I'll agree RG was at one point in time standing in the parking lot where his vehicle was discovered.

They recognized him after the fact.

:tyou: I realize you are a case expert so I'm attempting not to feel intimidated nor be argumentative. I, too, would love to know for sure what happened to RG. I still lean on the Penn State investigation as being what got him murdered. RG uncovered far too much. I realize one of your pet theories is that RG walked away. I don't. That happens so rarely, unless he had an underlying mental condition.

:tyou: Don't feel intimidated. Ask questions. The only reason I became an "expert" is because I asked questions. It should be obvious that I don't have all the answers.

 

[SuperSmith]

1. Can't we safely assume the witness knew if the two were conversing over, let's just say an antique item, and walked away holding hands? I've seen eye witnesses that have put the wrong folks in jail with their testimony.

2. That is pushing the envelope to assume that:
A RG had a lover. No proof to support this.
B RG did not walk away. He took no money. No vehicle. Is he homeless in the streets of NYC? Why would he walk away from a state pension he worked his entire career to earn?
C Women don't typically murder men who love them. So, somehow she lures him, then gets a gun on RG and takes him somewhere to murder him which he had already tossed his computer that she wanted but maybe she did not know this part.
D RG does not go to work. Instead he gets himself killed when he went to meet someone. RG was an Officer of the Court. He was not of criminal mind. He never had a black mark against his name until he disappeared without a trace.



3 RGs tiny car is in Lewisburg. There is no other reason required, such as a female companion, to prove to LE that he was in town. It never once crossed my mind that RG may be enjoying a weekend rendezvous. RG was the DA. He knew folks would be looking for him. He would have been reported as missing very shortly by his SO. I don't recall when she reported it. Maybe the next day?

4 The witness made a mistake!

What would force a DA to toss his computer into a cold river? Was RG a bipolar personality? His behavior the night before at the office and the day of his death missing is shrouded in mystery. Getting rid of the computer is too coincidental. Coincidences are clues.

The eyewitnesses who saw RG driving makes me wonder how they recognized him. He's just an average guy. His CAR was a bit unique enough to stand out but I don't think witnesses could positively ID the driver as being RG. Now, I do believe trained dogs more than I do eyewitnesses. I'll agree RG was at one point in time standing in the parking lot where his vehicle was discovered.

:tyou: I realize you are a case expert so I'm attempting not to feel intimidated nor be argumentative. I, too, would love to know for sure what happened to RG. I still lean on the Penn State investigation as being what got him murdered. RG uncovered far too much. I realize one of your pet theories is that RG walked away. I don't. That happens so rarely, unless he had an underlying mental condition.

DeDee your analysis is very sound and you have every right to question others interpretation of what they deem and try to promote as facts in this case. Trust me there is no expert in this case, only individuals that fancy themselves as such. An expert would've solved the case long ago. I welcome your input but I'm sure you will meet high resistance from those who want to steer the internet speak. Please carry on with your thoughts 👍

 

[J. J. in Phila]

At least two witnesses reported seeing RFG in the SoS on 4/15 after 5:00 PM with a woman. Now that opens some possibilities:

1. The woman just someone who stuck up a conversation with RFG.

2. The woman was the person that RFG planned to meet, because:

A. She was his lover.

B. She was going to help him walk away.

C. She lured him there to murder him.

D. There were going to be involved in some clandestine (and probably illegal) activity.

3. RFG was hoping that, by speaking to her, would establish that he was in Lewisburg, i.e. she

A couple of additional points on these.

I recall reading about the "Lewisburg Mystery Woman" in a Q & A site on the CDT in the summer of 2005. She was definitely mentioned in James Renner's article which appeared an alternative Cleveland newspaper in mid November 2005. However, while people following the case knew about it, it was not generally known to the public until May of 2006, when there was a Datelline episode on Gricar and the police released it.

It would be possible that, if this was someone that just struck up a conversation with RFG, that she didn't know the police were looking for her. It was Parent's Weekend at Bucknell and there were a number of out of towners there. She may have spoken with him, and was unaware that she was the Mystery Woman. If she wasn't following the case, she may still not realize it.

Since Marshall is representing Jeffry Sandusky, his "sexting" brought this next possibility back into mind. RFG could have been meeting, romantically, someone associated with a case, e.g. a defendant, a defendant's SO, family and/or friends of a defendant and/or a witness in the case. That would explain much of the evidence, especially why RFG went a great distance, didn't have notes on the meeting, and didn't tell PEF or the staff where he was going. I'm not trilled about the possibility, but it is possible.

 

[SeekingJana]

^^ There were rumors regarding a female former defendant in the early months of the case, but the talk went away.. probably no one wanted to go there because of Patty... and out of respect for Mr. Gricar's impeccable reputation as a D.A.

On another note, you know how sometimes, we imperfect humans can form a personal sort of superstition about a case? I've had one about Ray's case. I've always said to myself " If the Georgia Bureau of Investigation can ever solve the Tara Grinstead disappearance, then I believe the PA State Police can solve the Gricar disappearance".
It's just a personal " talisman" of sorts, because I have seen both cases as incredibly hard to solve after so many years of .... crickets...

Well, today the lights went on in Georgia ( with a respectful inside shout out to some former fellow posters on Mr. Gricar's case). Today, they arrested what appears to be the perp. who was responsible for acts against Tara Grinstead, the last one being her murder. ALL because a person with information spoke up 12 years later.
NO DNA, NO fingerprints, NO eyewitnesses as far as is known.. but someone knew something and finally broke free and has told the truth.

I am so praying for this in Ray's case in 2017. Best case scenario, we would get a " Case closed for security reasons" or some other vague BS, meaning that he's alive, or was alive living a normal lifespan, and left for reasons related to his security. Perhaps the security of someone who was emotionally close to him was threatened with valid and tangible actions against him or another person that we do not know about., Maybe it's not for us to ever know where he is. I realize this is extremely convoluted but this was NOT a simple man leading a simple life. By definition, the position of being a District Attorney precludes the former descriptive terms from applying.

I cannot and do not speak for anyone else.. Sometimes, I think I, personally, forget a great deal about his professional life.
Living in my market media area of the country has sadly taught me a lot about the internal torments and external hazards of a DA's life in the past 5 years.
In Texas, EVERYTHING that is on record is public knowledge, more or less. Dallas's DA had a spectacularly horrid meltdown for 2 years and finally " resigned". I feel very sorry for her, as I think she led a fishbowl life after a bitter mud-slinging divorce and never could recover personally or professionally after firing staff member after staff member in the DA's office.
Also, correct and seeming approrpiate decisions made by the Kauffman County DA regarding an employee ( or quasi- employee) led to him and his wife being gunned down in their own home, and the sheriff who stood and vowed to put the person behind bars was also felled by the insane man.

People who were stable, ordinary, middle- class people have lost their MINDS and sense of right and wrong, and I don't think it's recoverable for those who slide down that slippery slope. If a DA's efforts in the court room, where he is so highly visible, quoted in the newspapers and on TV, led to or certainly greatly aided in the prosecuting of an unstable but otherwise ordinary person ( who broke a law) or that person's wife, daughter, etc.. is there not reasonable concern that such a person would " go after" the DA? Months, maybe even years later? What IF the incarcerated person died as a result of a violent act committed upon them in prison, or from lack of prompt or excellent medical care for a life- threatening medical condition which caused them to suffer and die? Maybe 10 years into the sentence, maybe one week before the person was to be released?

I know we have or had some nurses who worked in the penal system post on the case, and I'd like to offer my own anecdote. I once set up a doctor's office practice for him. It was a piece of cake, until I got to the PA who was already working.. I could NOT find documentation of the state board of medical examiners credentialing of the man. I KNEW him, peripherally, as I had worked with the woman who was his wife at the time, an ER RN.
I went to the doctor many times with my concerns and requests for the documentation he said he had on file for his physician assistant.
Then, one day, I overheard the PA making a phone call and asking his wife, the RN, how much of a dosage was normal for a certain medication. A bell went off in my head. Why didn't he KNOW this? And why didn't he know how to get and use one of our PDRs if he was unsure?

A few weeks later, the same thing happened, but it was his mis-interpetation of an EKG. I was an ICU nurse for most of my career, so I was right there to inform the doctor of the abnormalities.. but I might not have been, I reminded myself. A PA is supposed to be largely self- reliant and proficient in the same areas as a doctor or a nurse. He was certainly getting paid a huge salary to take a tiny bit of responsibility from the doctor's shoulders.
I left, married and moved away, and then it hit the fan and national news.
The P.A. was NOT a P.A., just as I had suspected. He had been a medic in the first Gulf War conflicts. He had some knowledge, especially of wound suturing and cleaning and trauma injuries, but not of medications or cardiac events at all.
How was he found out?
He was discovered to be a fraud when, as his employer doctor, the doctor on call for the local county jail, was out of town, and had left this fraudster in charge of medical care of the county prison population that weekend. 2 days. It was legal at that time for a P.A. to take some calls for a M.D.
He made a huge, very basic error in judgment regarding an anti-seizure medication and an incarcerated person died. That's when he was investigated, found to have made his OWN certificate of credentials with his own copy machine and a real P.A.s purloined certificate, and was busted. Long story shorter- I was right, the doctor was negligent, and the pseudo-P.A, was a criminal. So, our prison system is sometimes at the mercy of the health care professionals on duty at any given time, a prison or jail not being a health care facility with health care professionals serving as peer oversight.

As a behavioral psychologist, I've learned that people will kill over a stick of gum if they didn't learn moral reasoning or cannot practice moral and ethical reasoning. Sadly, the depersonalization caused by drug and alcohol use starting in middle school, the constant texting, twitter, ( no one's in particular), anonymous internet usage, and, as badly as I hate to keep saying this, the 2 generations raised on an alternate reality of video gaming in the First Person Shooter mode, has blurred reality from fiction.

NO ONE is a super hero, but a 20-something year old or a 35 year old who grew up bombarded with violent peer remarks against authority in general, and the over- saturation of violent video games where a FPS can kill the opponent without any attrition has changed societal mores in great ways. People likely said this same thing when the telephone, radio and television were made accessible to all. There is a vital difference, however. Until the age of violent computer role playing games. there were no hypothetical situations where the individual could want someone dead and then wreak vigilante justice via a computer generated model. It's the vengeance angle which has changed, not the ability to communicate in new ways.

I really think the collective " we" have focused on Mr. Gricar's personal life to a much greater extent than his professional life, because we've known more facts about his private life, and because until recently the assumption has been that " DAs are no more likely to be killed than the general population".
I, personally, am re-thinking the internal and external stressors of the career of a District Attorney much more closely now. My personal perspective won't affect the case or the hopeful eventual solving, but if enough people think differently just a bit, we might come up with a person, or people, or an angle that has largely gone unnoticed.
( For example- the Jeep that Ray turned and watched go through the courthouse parking lot on the last known video he's seen in, and why didn't he marry Patty, and why did KA call her a " Paramour" instead of girlfriend or partner? ( with" partner" being the most correct of all, linguistically, as far as we know). Her dissertation on the early year or so of the case is likely NOT significant, but some of her wording regarding Ray's life is what I'd call peculiar and likely, meant to be an arrow pointing to what she believed to be " unusual".

Also, there doesn't have to be a SINGLE motive for a murder, there can be a dual motive. It is now thought, although certainly not proven in a court of law at this time, that Tara Grinstead may have been the victim of a burglary AND an aggravated sexual attack which culminated in her death. Prime motive being breaking and entering while she was gone for the purpose of burglary.
For years, men who were " in and out" of her life romantically were the main suspects... 12 long years of clouds of suspicion over their heads, when it appears now that it was a druggie looking for money to spend at the suspected drug house down the street, who broke into her home. She came home unexpectedly and was then assaulted and killed. Likely she did " know of" him, as a teacher in a small HS in a small town, but as far as is known now, she had no close or personal feelings or relationship to him. Doesn't mean he wasn't a stalker of whom she was unaware, though, because there has never been any sign of forced entry into her house. Maybe he watched the property long enough to know how to enter with a hidden key or through an open window. We don't know yet, but we do know that she had spoken of fearing that she had a former HS male stalker. Most people believed he was another person with a similar name until today. Of course, there could have been more than one stalkerish male in her periphery.. and one was violent, the other, not.

Could a dual motive not also be true of Mr. Gricar's case and that's WHY we can't put it together right? He lived in a nondescript house, with a nondescript lady who was not his wife, his closest relative was in college on the W. coast. He was said to be more or less a loner, and a man of few words and good character. Then, we have the anomalies. 1) The sports car which some people believe was " flashy" and Mini Coopers were distinctive back then.. to a degree. and 2) He was a lone, middle aged man who is said to like to shop a few towns away, at least, regarding the SoS,* as I do not know of his other shopping venues), for antique TOYS. Both of those things distinguish him from most other men in his area ( yes, there is at least 1 other Mini Cooper male owner of record at that time), D.A. or non- D.A.

I do believe that he was a target because of his career, and while leading a low key lifestyle in most ways, had two unusual features to his personality which would make him extremely easy to track in small town PA.
Just like Tara Grinstead was a " history teacher at Ocilla HS". Yes, she was. She also had been a statewide beauty pageant contestant for some YEARS, trying to become Miss Georgia.. The night of her death, she had assisted the very small- town Ocilla HS girls prepare for a pageant.. Thus, her noted beauty, friendliness, and a sense of " familiarity" to the public at large because of her, well, truly, her stage presence, set her apart..

To be fair, likely all of us have something which, if a person wanted to get close to us, is different and unique enough to be notable. Would it cause the death of any of us? Well, I don't know of any immortals walking the face of the earth, do you? People are killed in what seem to be random " accidents". Many were planned non-accidents. The difference is that a body is left in place, and this was not true for Tara and it may not be true of Ray. We don't know yet.

This is not a post of immense discovery, because there aren't any immense discoveries known to the public. I haven't posted on his case in quite a while, but have been thinking about it every day.. and the movements in the Tara Grinstead case certainly have made me stop and want to post this to my fellow case posters. Her killer was NOT who was suspected for 12 years.. nor was the primary motive the motive assigned most often to the disappearance.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I did find out that there were several antique type stores in Lewisburg. Bob Buehner complained that the police had not checked those. I'm not sure that someone, even familiar with RFG's patterns, would assume that he would go to the SoS.

Thinking about the possibility of RFG being intercepted in route, I could bee some problems.

1. Even if they knew RFG would be driving to Lewisburg, there are at least three to get to Lewisburg, without using tertiary roads. They are 192, 45, and I-80. Only if RFG were followed or if a group of killers had each route covered could they intercept him. I think following RFG from Bellefonte even to Centre Hall would have been something he'd have spotted.

2. Trying to force the car off the road would be difficult, without leaving evidence. If the killer's car bumped the Mini, there would be some evidence, some dents and scratches. Forcing the car off the road could leave dust, mud, or plant fragments on the Mini; it is also possible that the Mini could have crashed. The Mini was clean.

3. There would need to be two people involved. One to drive the car that runs RFG off the road and one to drive the Mini to Lewisburg. Why would a killer get into a car, where he could leave fiber, hair, possibly prints, and possibly DNA, and drive to a town where he could be spotted driving the Mini. Even then, he moved it around.

Those are the three reasons why that scenario is unlikely.

 

[SeekingJana]

Hi, J.J.,
I think you are generically replying to my post. I didn't really mean to " set up" an interception scenario... Most good drivers are alert and aware of anyone trying to maneuver them into a compromised situation.. I was stalked, and I could keep the stalker ( a state policeman) from running me off the road MOST of the time.

Also, I just never have felt that something happened to Ray on the road, or on the trip in general. His car showed no damage as far as we are told, and the state police seem to have processed and released it very quickly. If there was any evidence of a MVA or a carjacking, they'd still have that car, I think.
We'd also likely know what happened by now.

All I really meant was that sometimes, we think a person fits a certain pattern, and we think of them as not being " exposed" or " vulnerable" to danger. Referencing the Tara Grinstead case here, but it apples to human behavior in general...
People have assumed, for the most part, that an old boyfriend, or someone in LE killed her, maybe accidentally, and hid the body so well that it hasn't been found. A couple of former LE officers were high on a lot of people's private lists, although I'm not sure it's been discussed in depth on WS.. That's a very slippery slope to go down without evidence. She had dated a policeman or two, but I don't know that there was a LEO in her life at the time of her murder. I tend to think not, but we don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

That's my point- we don't know what goes on behind closed doors. It turns out that Tara taught the guy who is arrested for her disappearance and murder, which occurred 12 years ago, but she taught a lot of kids.
Just like Ray prosecuted a lot of cases, all involving people with families, friends, lovers, associates, whatever.

Also, I think that most of the time, the gravity of his career is overlooked. We are so accustomed to the fact that he was a seasoned D.A. about to retire, you know? I think a few people have looked at the cases they knew about or could find in the year's archives for the 365 days prior to his disappearance, but likely, there's no way to know who's back in the shadowy past..
As I said, it's possible that a husband, boyfriend, father, of a young adult sent to prison by the CJ system under Ray as DA blamed him for the person's death in prison.. Lots of people die in prison, if the news reports are correct. If they'd been convicted of a drug crime as a repeat offender, and then died, I think it might drive a good many people over the edge.. Maybe there was a plea deal and it never went to trial so Ray would be the key person most would think of as " putting my baby girl away, then he and they got her killed in there". Those are the wild card kinds of people we cannot anticipate.

I do wonder what the chance is that someone knows what happened to him and like in the Tara Grinstead case, will have a reason to talk- either reward money ( I don't know if there is a reward on the Gricar disappearance now) or because they 1) Have a vendetta against the perp. such as an ex- spouse who kept silent during the marriage. 2) A former gang member who knew details and can shed light on perhaps where remains are. 3) Another disenfranchised or disillusioned person who somehow realizes they know something, or more likely, someone who can admit they know something with immunity from prosecution AND a suspended jail or prison sentence for another crime. IF he was murdered, the person who killed him likely doesn't hang with the choir, you know?

I did find out that there were several antique type stores in Lewisburg. Bob Buehner complained that the police had not checked those. I'm not sure that someone, even familiar with RFG's patterns, would assume that he would go to the SoS.

Thinking about the possibility of RFG being intercepted in route, I could bee some problems.

1. Even if they knew RFG would be driving to Lewisburg, there are at least three to get to Lewisburg, without using tertiary roads. They are 192, 45, and I-80. Only if RFG were followed or if a group of killers had each route covered could they intercept him. I think following RFG from Bellefonte even to Centre Hall would have been something he'd have spotted.

2. Trying to force the car off the road would be difficult, without leaving evidence. If the killer's car bumped the Mini, there would be some evidence, some dents and scratches. Forcing the car off the road could leave dust, mud, or plant fragments on the Mini; it is also possible that the Mini could have crashed. The Mini was clean.

3. There would need to be two people involved. One to drive the car that runs RFG off the road and one to drive the Mini to Lewisburg. Why would a killer get into a car, where he could leave fiber, hair, possibly prints, and possibly DNA, and drive to a town where he could be spotted driving the Mini. Even then, he moved it around.

Those are the three reasons why that scenario is unlikely.

 

[Trackergd]

Sorry to have been out of thread. I went back to college (at 61) and am working hard on the Lauren Jackson case from 1988. Just jumped in to update new folks in the threads that I had paid for a copy of Ray's financials and paid for an initial accountant review with the response that "they are unusual and raise a few questions" JJ has additional financials. I just don't have enough money to pay a forensic accountant to pour over it all since I am dropping a kings ransom on forensic ground probes and a deep scanning metal detector to try and find Lauren. Wish I could afford a GPR unit.... Will check in when I can.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Jana, the first paragraph was the response.

I did want to look at the possibility and let people that, yes, I looked at the possibility.

Another problem was the time. RFG was seen in Centre Hall between 11:30 and 11:35 AM and was seen around "lunch time" in Lewisburg. It is about a 47 mile trip.

At an average speed of 60 MPH, he would have arrived in Lewisburg between 12:15-12:20 PM. I would expect that RFG's average speed would have been closer to 45-50 MPH. While RFG was known as "an adventurous driver," one who did not stay under the speed limits, he'd still have to cross Lewisburg and could not maintain a speed of 60+. The earliest he could have reached it was about 12:15 PM and the latest about 12:40 PM. Lunch time is usually 12 noon to 1:00 PM, so that window fits with him arriving before 1:00 PM.

Forcing RFG off the road, removing and securing him, and then having someone drive the Mini to Lewisburg by 1:00 PM (even a bit later) would be difficult, adding to the other difficulties.

To add to TrackerGD's point, the Bellefonte Police never did a forensic audit. The reports that I have heard is that, in his bank accounts, RFG between $83 k and just over $100 k. The accounts were in his, and his daughter's name.

 

[SeekingJana]

^^OK, I agree with you, of course, that he MIGHT have somehow disappeared alive. He also may have saved money in ways that are not known to us and STILL been murdered.

People thought Tara Grinstead might have disappeared alive as well because of a long relationship which ended very badly for her. She was a very hurt young woman- they say she was devastated.. had left school crying, had been unable to go to her classroom to teach on some days, even, right before her murder. Apparently, some of the man's post- disappearance comments and decisions were not so very kind, hence one reason he went to the top of the suspect list for LE and the gen. public for years.

BUT, if the witness regarding the arrested suspect is correct, then she wasn't killed for an obvious motive. She walked in on a burglar. She was murdered because she came home at the wrong time of the night. Earlier than expected.
Ray was NOT expected to be in Lewisville on the day he was. Does that make any difference? We don't know.
Add in " Was he at Raystown Lake the day before, and if so, why?" and I think it's more that he was either wanting to be out and away from the courthouse very much, which apparently was out of character for him, considering that the last video of him is of him entering the court house after normal work hours, or he wanted or needed to meet with someone badly and the first attempt was not successful. What about the second attempt if the Raystown Lake claims are true?
And, wouldn't he have told Patty if he went to the lakeside harbor area? I mean, apparently people saw him. He may have realized that he'd been spotted.. Wouldn't he then be sure to tell his partner? People meet at lakes and so forth for many reasons, but since he wasn't a fisherman, it wasn't boating season and he wasn't fond of the water or swimming anyway, why two bodies of water on 2 consecutive days? Maybe because our waterways are usually well marked for people who are tourists and not locals? Thus, the person he was meeting might well be a person unfamiliar with the area who was traveling to meet him? .
I have 1001 questions but no answers.
I don't even know how the Raystown Lake story reached the public domain. Do you? Is it credible or is it folklore?

Back to my initial line of thought- Isn't the same kind of random murder also possible in Ray's case? He either accidentally saw or overheard something and was killed, was held up at gunpoint, they realized who they had by his ID, a business card, a government ID card ( or he told them- which people under stress will do sometimes) and was killed secondary to a primary random crime.

IF it happened in the middle of the day in Lewisville, that narrows what type of crime and why HE saw it down tremendously.. IF he spent one night in Lewisville, then almost anything could have happened almost anywhere in the area because we do not know where he was. If LE ever found out, they didn't tell the public.. and claimed the opposite, that they looked but no hotel registration under his name.
( How many people who are nice, law- abiding people have used an alias at a hotel at one time or another, even if single? Millions, that's how many!!!)

This is one of the dumbest seeming questions asked about the case, but I need to know: At that time, was there any sort of adult inpatient mental health or adult inpatient substance abuse treatment center ( most of the time, they are a combo of both) anywhere in the vicinity that would be closer to Lewisville and the antique shops Ray liked than such a facility would be to Bellefonte? I think you know that this is NOT about Ray, personally, but a peripheral alliance..

 

[J. J. in Phila]

One key question is why did RFG go to Lewisburg that day?

I can say that, with a high degree of certainty, RFG was planning to go to Lewisburg, though not necessarily that day, but in the near future. He was checking the weather forecast for there, and Lake Raystown, earlier in the week. He also generated a map to Lewisburg on his office computer, at least during that week.

Based on that, it is highly likely this was not a random drive. It had purpose.

What that purpose could be would be a long list.

There are currently two in the immediate Lewisburg area, but they are in the west of the town; RFG would have driven past them. They were at least a mile away from where the Mini was found.

There was one, a full sanatorium, around Centre Hall. The Meadows Hospital. I think it was there in 2005. There are currently two mental health centers within walking distance of the house in Bellefonte; one is on the way to the Courthouse. I don't know if either was there in 2005.

BTW: You made me look. :laughing: