PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #6

[rlc]

There is more to the Southfield sighting.

We can speculate on a motivation for RFG walking away (and until a few days ago, Pittsburghgirl really wanted to). I've never really wanted to focus on the motive because it is speculative, even if solid. I cannot do a Vulcan mind meld with RFG.

We do have opportunity.

I focus on the means; how did RFG get out of Lewisburg? All the motive in the world won't answer that question.

.

If someone's paying RG to shut up and disappear with his information, couldn't that someone have easily given him a ride out of the state?

I have to say the idea of RG accepting a payoff does not sit well with me, but maybe I'm being naive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

.

If someone's paying RG to shut up and disappear with his information, couldn't that someone have easily given him a ride out of the state?

I have to say the idea of RG accepting a payoff does not sit well with me, but maybe I'm being naive.

Or kill him in the process. The key question is: How did Ray Gricar get out of Lewisburg?

I've got to honest with you, I did not see this coming.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I do not for one minute think RG was paid off.

If the press conference today is somewhere on the internet, itnis worth listening to. The state AG said the investigation is continuing and that she thinks it ismpossible that there are more victims out there. When asked about the 1998 case, her only comment was that it had been investigated by the University Police. It was a one-sentence answer. The implication seemed to be that the university being the investigating agency was a problem. I'd like to see that exchange in print to see if my impression holds up.

JJ, it's interesting that this case opens up a new avenue of thought for all of us, to consider not just cases underway but what RG might have learned that someone else might have wanted to keep secret. Like you, none of us could see "this" coming ("this" being not just the awful allegations against Sandusky, high-level perjury charges, and RG's name coming up.)

 

[eriklatranyi]

I focus on the means; how did RFG get out of Lewisburg? All the motive in the world won't answer that question.

No, the motive does not answer the question.

However, if we give credibility to the Wilkes-Barre sighting, we know RFG could have traveled from Wilkes-Barre to Southfield easily.

So, the correct question might be how did RFG get from Lewisburg to Wilkes-Barre?

That would be easier for RFG to accomplish than Lewisburg directly to Southfield.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I do not for one minute think RG was paid off.

And I would not, for one minute, have thought that when faced with the evidence in 1998, RFG would have declined to prosecute Sandusky. Yet he did.

If the press conference today is somewhere on the internet, itnis worth listening to. The state AG said the investigation is continuing and that she thinks it ismpossible that there are more victims out there. When asked about the 1998 case, her only comment was that it had been investigated by the University Police. It was a one-sentence answer. The implication seemed to be that the university being the investigating agency was a problem. I'd like to see that exchange in print to see if my impression holds up.

According to the presentment it involved child welfare, the State College Police, and the University Police, along with RFG of course.

JJ, it's interesting that this case opens up a new avenue of thought for all of us, to consider not just cases underway but what RG might have learned that someone else might have wanted to keep secret. Like you, none of us could see "this" coming ("this" being not just the awful allegations against Sandusky, high-level perjury charges, and RG's name coming up.)

I knew about the investigation (it was in the paper), and about this incident, but I did not expect Sandusky to be indicted on that incident. I figured if RFG didn't indict, it would be too weak. Welllll...

The thing is that now, we have another motivation for walk away. There are others, but this is one. It is also a potential for murder.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

No, the motive does not answer the question.

However, if we give credibility to the Wilkes-Barre sighting, we know RFG could have traveled from Wilkes-Barre to Southfield easily.

So, the correct question might be how did RFG get from Lewisburg to Wilkes-Barre?

We can add, did he go there alone or in the company of someone (who might have killed him).

That would be easier for RFG to accomplish than Lewisburg directly to Southfield.

Assuming that Southfield is accurate (I give it a 50% chance), there is a one word answer: Canada.

I-81 will take you into Canada, and, in 2005, you didn't need a passport.

You cannot stay in Canada indefinitely and there are tax issues if you need to sell a car there; if you cross into the US, the tax problem disappear (not to mention stopping at a consulate and getting whatever documentation you need).

Again, it is logically consistent with the evidence. Being logically consistent does not mean it happened.

The way out of Lewisburg is key, and it might lead not only to walkaway, but to murder.

 

[Kateyes]

The drive was found, but RFG did not have that computer until well after 1998.

Yes, True. I was thinking without really explaining fully. My thought was that he may have recently had been given some new info (from a victim, parent, etc) that he did put into the computer that he had at the time of his disappearance. Sorry I wasn't clear, and thanks for clarification.

 

[justathought]

If I recall correctly one of the women who observed Ray in Lewisburg, said he seemed to be waiting for someone. I think some one picked him up. The part I don't get is if they got in his car and smoked.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, True. I was thinking without really explaining fully. My thought was that he may have recently had been given some new info (from a victim, parent, etc) that he did put into the computer that he had at the time of his disappearance. Sorry I wasn't clear, and thanks for clarification.

Possibly, but how would anyone else know it was on his laptop and that he didn't copy it to CD's, flash drives, an online storage site, or his home or office computer?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Hear is the link to the presentment.

http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf

WARNING: IT IS GRAPHIC​

 

[Kateyes]

J.J. in Phila - all I can say is that I sat in Starbucks yesterday afternoon with my husband, and read the Grand Jury report. When I came to the page that reports on the 1998 investigation, and read the name "Ray Gricar" I had one of those "oh no" moments. one of those things where something happens, and suddenly there is a whole new avenue to explore re: a cold case. The possibility of murder as the cause of Ray Gricar's disappearance cannot be ruled out, IMO. I googled Ray Gricar this morning, and was surprised to find several articles noting the things discussed here. Who knows where it will go. But cold cases have been solved because of a connection brought to light through a new crime or indictment.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

If I recall correctly one of the women who observed Ray in Lewisburg, said he seemed to be waiting for someone. I think some one picked him up. The part I don't get is if they got in his car and smoked.

Possible, but who?

 

[justathought]

Possible, but who?

Well, we don't know if one of the Eastern European relatives didn't come into Canada, drive down to Lewisburg for that matter and pick him up. The rental car goes back to Canada, they stop in the Detroit area to go to the embassy for a Visa or something....
Or maybe it was a stranger and he arranged the entire thing.....with the idea of disappearing.
Or maybe, as some one suggested, he was meeting someone to tell them the story wasn't going to stay hidden....that person was a smoker,,,,in the car...then suggested they take a ride in another vehilce....and a murder happened....I hate to think it was a shake down on Ray's part.
But, it makes sense as to why he went off, forfeiting his retirement to his daughter...he could have been stashing funds for the eventuality..but it sure makes the car title, all of it make more sense.

 

[justathought]

To amplify: As the years progressed from 1998 forward, public outrate over cases like this mounted particularly with the Catholic priest acitivites coming to light all over the country. Probably there continued to be whispers about Sandusky and Gricard heard them and became more troubled. No house in his name, no car in his name, all of it sounds like a person who expects to either be disgraced, sued, or disappear. Can't know what he was thinking but it just makes more sense now.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

To amplify: As the years progressed from 1998 forward, public outrate over cases like this mounted particularly with the Catholic priest acitivites coming to light all over the country. Probably there continued to be whispers about Sandusky and Gricard heard them and became more troubled. No house in his name, no car in his name, all of it sounds like a person who expects to either be disgraced, sued, or disappear. Can't know what he was thinking but it just makes more sense now.

... or even fleeing.

 

[SeekingJana]

First, there is substantially more evidence that RFG walked away than that this has anything to do with it.

Second, I've not been too critical of RFG's record (another poster referred to him as a "putz" in regard to another case), but here I am. It deals with just one recorded incident, the 1998 incident that was reported to the police.

One probably victim is in the military and did not testify; that was also in 1998.

While I'm stunned that RFG did not prosecute the 1998 incident and that it was colossal lapse of judgment on his part, he was unaware of the other cases. I can't blame him for the others.

Colossal lapse of judgment on Mr. Gricar's part is an understatement, if only for the first accusation/ charge. I am truly shocked. That boy was assaulted in the shower. He mattered and he still matters. I can't determine if Gricar knew about the other cases or not with 100% certainty, and neither can you or probably anyone else except Mr. Gricar at this point.

J.J., you may not remember this, but several months ago, you and I had a discussion going about what would make a man like Ray Gricar, with his position and intelligence, impending retirement personal and professional ethics and stability, choose to disappear.
I said then that my bet was on something so bad that if it saw the light of day it would destroy his reputation.

Your response was that his professional reputation would have soon ceased to matter because he would have been retiring in 5 months.
Taking that statement with the time qualifier into consideration, I do wonder if, at least by early 2005, he knew about more than the 1998 case... and realized that by not acting, a pedophile continued to molest. I am sure a lot would have been at stake for Penn State and Joe Paterno's football program.
If Gricar had knowledge of the later charges, the guilt must have been horrible. I know that many of the comments being made about Mr. Gricar on the PA news forums are beyond horrible!! To me, the vitrolic comments show that his reputation did NOT end with his disappearance, and would have been resurrected with the allegations/ charges against Sandusky at some point.

Just like the Nifong crap in NC, even if Sandusky manages to walk, the DAs involved down through the years of charges of molestation will have blemished reputations. Some people feel extremely passionately about sex crimes going unpunished, just as some people feel extremely passionate about their home team and believe that athletes are gods. I know next to nothing about football, but I do know that corrupt people can exist wherever an inbalance of power exists.

I hope Mr. Gricar is found and compelled to testify. I want to hear his reasoning for not prosecuting Sandusky at some point... to hear his side of things. Maybe he did have sound reasoning, if he only knew about the first charge. I'm sure the push is on to find him now more than ever before.

As far as HOW Gricar got away from Lewisburg, I don't find that hard to understand. Maybe because I'm from a small town, or maybe I'm missing something you've thought about that I haven't.

To me, it would go something like this:
A trusted friend leaves an old clunker, like a fishing car, in the parking lot where the conspicuous Mini is parked. Leaves the car keys under the mat. MAYBE takes the Mini car keys to keep the car from being stolen so it will be found by LE. The friend walks a few blocks away and calls a buddy for a ride home with a stop at the DQ or somewhere similar. His treat. Most people would accept that an old fishing car was in the shop, etc and a ride home was needed..No big questions. Happens in small river towns quite often. .
Ray gets into the old, nondescript car unobserved after dark and starts the process of leaving.

At this point in time, I'd put the odds at :
Voluntary walkaway- 85%
Murder- 10%
Walkaway turned into accidental death- 3%
Suicide- 1% ( because there are few absolutes)
Other, such as WPP- 1%

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Colossal lapse of judgment on Mr. Gricar's part is an understatement, if only for the first accusation/ charge. I am truly shocked. That boy was assaulted in the shower. He mattered and he still matters. I can't determine if Gricar knew about the other cases or not with 100% certainty, and neither can you or probably anyone else except Mr. Gricar at this point.

J.J., you may not remember this, but several months ago, you and I had a discussion going about what would make a man like Ray Gricar, with his position and intelligence, impending retirement personal and professional ethics and stability, choose to disappear.
I said then that my bet was on something so bad that if it saw the light of day it would destroy his reputation.

Your response was that his professional reputation would have soon ceased to matter because he would have been retiring in 5 months.
Taking that statement with the time qualifier into consideration, I do wonder if, at least by early 2005, he knew about more than the 1998 case... and realized that by not acting, a pedophile continued to molest. I am sure a lot would have been at stake for Penn State and Joe Paterno's football program.
If Gricar had knowledge of the later charges, the guilt must have been horrible. I know that many of the comments being made about Mr. Gricar on the PA news forums are beyond horrible!! To me, the vitrolic comments show that his reputation did NOT end with his disappearance, and would have been resurrected with the allegations/ charges against Sandusky at some point.

I'll respond to the second part in a separate post.

Okay, if a 66 year old RFG were sitting in Bellefonte right now, I have no doubt Sara Ganim would be pounding on his door. Other than that, it would not affect him. He would still be collecting his pension. He would loose not legal clients because he no longer practicing. His political career would be dead as a doornail, but he's not running for anything.

Assuming that he made the decision in good faith, even if it is a colossally bad one, he does not have anything to worry about. It would be almost impossible to sue him, and the county insurance would cover him.

Yes, sure, people on the Internet would calling him evil and an idiot, but why would he care? There is a whole thread on another site about what a terrible person I am for saying that RFG might have walked away (and that has been strangely silent for the past 48 hours or so).

It only becomes a problem if he is bribed not to prosecute. Well, you can't prosecute a dead man, even a legally dead one.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

As far as HOW Gricar got away from Lewisburg, I don't find that hard to understand. Maybe because I'm from a small town, or maybe I'm missing something you've thought about that I haven't.

To me, it would go something like this:
A trusted friend leaves an old clunker, like a fishing car, in the parking lot where the conspicuous Mini is parked. Leaves the car keys under the mat. MAYBE takes the Mini car keys to keep the car from being stolen so it will be found by LE. The friend walks a few blocks away and calls a buddy for a ride home with a stop at the DQ or somewhere similar. His treat. Most people would accept that an old fishing car was in the shop, etc and a ride home was needed..No big questions. Happens in small river towns quite often. .
Ray gets into the old, nondescript car unobserved after dark and starts the process of leaving.

Who is the trusted friend? That is one of the questions I've been asking.

At this point in time, I'd put the odds at :
Voluntary walkaway- 85%
Murder- 10%
Walkaway turned into accidental death- 3%
Suicide- 1% ( because there are few absolutes)
Other, such as WPP- 1%

I'd still give it:

Voluntary departure (including flight): 52%
Foul Play: 43%
Suicide: 4%
Other: 1%

I've always known that the possibility of something like this could exist and it has always been in the odds.

 

[SeekingJana]

I'll respond to the second part in a separate post.

Okay, if a 66 year old RFG were sitting in Bellefonte right now, I have no doubt Sara Ganim would be pounding on his door. Other than that, it would not affect him. He would still be collecting his pension. He would loose not legal clients because he no longer practicing. His political career would be dead as a doornail, but he's not running for anything.

Assuming that he made the decision in good faith, even if it is a colossally bad one, he does not have anything to worry about. It would be almost impossible to sue him, and the county insurance would cover him.

Yes, sure, people on the Internet would calling him evil and an idiot, but why would he care? There is a whole thread on another site about what a terrible person I am for saying that RFG might have walked away (and that has been strangely silent for the past 48 hours or so).

It only becomes a problem if he is bribed not to prosecute. Well, you can't prosecute a dead man, even a legally dead one.

For some of us, our professional actions, or as in this case, perhaps the lack of action, can have far-reaching consequences. Some of us are not merely commentators and spectators, but are charged with securing protection for any person in jeopardy who crosses our paths. Held to a higher standard. Ray Gricar, if he did not meet his obligation to protect one or more of these boys from the many charges of alleged sexual abuse, is morally responsible to his peers for his inaction. The possible failure to protect a child or children from rape is a current legal matter. If he is found and if he is judged to have been negligent, the opinions of his peers, neighbors, friends, etc will matter to him and will affext his life if he is a man with a conscience, which I believe he is.

This is not about future employment for Ray Gricar, or his pension, or his house, car, etc.. This is about ethics and responsible conduct of one's duties. The possible neglect to protect did not end when Ray disappeared, as the Indictments containing the statements about his actions (1. Having a conversation between Sandusky and the child's mother monitored by hidden LE and 2, His failure to take the allegations to a GJ) are contained in a legal document written and made public for the first time in the year 2011, not 2005 or 1998 It is about protecting innocent children, disadvantaged and needy children at The Second Mile from harm. It appears at this time from the wording of one of the GJ indictments that they believe Ray Gricar does share responsibility for protecting at least one boy.

Would you be friends with a person who turned a blind eye upon pedophilia? ( should Sandusky be tried and should you find the testimony of the victims and witnesses to be compellingly honest).
I wouldn't even look a known pedophile in the eye or acknowledge his being. I also wouldn't think highly of a former DA who let him walk early in the timeline of the alleged victimization.
All of the men who stayed silent while little boys were allegedly being hurt acted with despicable disregard for the innocent and the weak, IMO.
The list of those who failed to report or take action does include Ray Gricar at this time.

We have also discussed the issue of " legally dead" and why it was done at the time of the court ruling. There is absolutely no need to be flippant about it now. IF Ray Gricar was murdered, I am sincerely sorry. I could be mistaken but I believe he most likely left of his own volition because of this issue and the allegations of continued abuse which he had failed to act upon early on.
Probably when all is said and done as a result of the GJ indictments, Ray Gricar certainly will not be standing in the corner alone... Many people in positions of authority apparently failed to protect multiple children over a period of many years. The true bill of the GJ appears to be very thorough in this and other aspects.

 

[SeekingJana]

Who is the trusted friend? That is one of the questions I've been asking.
.

Yes, it is certainly one of the questions you ask over and over.
In the following sentences, where the word " you" is written, it is a collective " you" which includes all of us. None of us walked in Ray Gricar's footsteps or rode in his car!!

Even if you ( or I or anyone else on the planet) were Ray Gricar's personal assistant or his closest friend, you cannot KNOW who he KNEW. You cannot even begin to speculate who he knew in which towns/ areas and how closely he knew them. Or how loyal they were/ are to him.

It is not germane for you or me to ask " WHO". Since we do not even know exactly when he left Lewisburg or where he went next, the " who helped him" is a very minor point for a man who had lived in the general vicinity for many years and likely had many people who would have gladly helped him and kept silent.. There is a chance that the person who helped him leave doesn't even know that they helped him do such a thing. He might not have chosen a friend at all. He could have asked a total stranger for a lift to the next nearest town. He was old enough that he could remember stories of hopping onto an empty rail car and riding a train out of town. I believe he was a resourceful person who planned this for a long time, and I believe he chose the best method for his style of leave-taking. Ray Gricar's appearance is such that he could blend in well. He really has no uniquely distinguishing features.

The point is that he most likely could not make his getaway without a bit of clandestine assistance from someone.
It is for us to come up with and discuss viable and fairly simple ways in which a man left an area of PA which you happen to be familiar with. Your familiarity with PA's countryside does not confer familiarity with Ray Gricar or his friendships in the area. Many, if not most of us have friends near and far who are not known to any other friends of ours at all. I found this out in the " social networking sphere".