PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, Bellefonte, 15 April 2005 - #8

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Me? I grew up around the Johnstown area.

I would have thought you were from Altoona. :)

My hubby is from Ebensburg... and he is a Penn State Alum.. I've been following this thread, but I don't think have commented on it, When the whole Jerry Sandusky news started, first thing I thought was wonder if that was connected to Ray's disappearance,
 
By "Occam's razor" I was only implying that the simplest explanation might prevail. There was no sign of a struggle at PF's house. Some say RG was uncharacteristically broody before he disappeared. If someone (a woman) contacted him about information on a former case where he was second-guessing himself he might go and hear the story. That would suggest that a woman and other abductor(s) were involved.

It was more than a month that people noticed him acting uncharacteristically. A reporter noted it 3/8 and CS noted it in the conference with the judge on 3/9. That is a pretty big gap. It appears to be getting worse. JKA noted it is the last week or so. PEF noted the tiredness about a fortnight before.

If you are going to walk away and are truly organized (as RG seemed to be) you would probably appear to be blithe and nonchalant before you ran away to Canada or the Baltic Coast.

If I leave on a week's planned vacation, I'm panicking the night before. This is after I've given everyone contact information, packed, made maps to my destination, and looked at satellite photos of where I'm staying.

Now, that's me, and I have health issues which play into that, but we don't know how someone planning to vanish would act. Further, we don't know how RFG would react in that situation. The change in demeanor plays into every scenario (except stalking).

Unless... RG went for a drive to clear his head... someone "saw red" or noticed the license plate and decided to steal the car and killed RG -- maybe road rage gone wrong? When they discovered by reading the laptop or on the news that he was a DA they returned the car to the parking lot across from SoS on Saturday.

The story was not out until late Saturday, and only in the Central Pennsylvania Market, which doesn't extend into Lewisburg. The story was not national until the car was found.

The plate was PFO, not "DA RAY." Someone would have to know he drove that car.

Why would RFG have the laptop with him it this was just a pleasure drive?
 
My hubby is from Ebensburg... and he is a Penn State Alum.. I've been following this thread, but I don't think have commented on it, When the whole Jerry Sandusky news started, first thing I thought was wonder if that was connected to Ray's disappearance,

Ironically, I once complained that the Courthouse there had lax security. They let me in the back door unchallenged. :)
 
J.J.

RG might have taken the laptop to take notes from the woman (with info) he could have been meeting? You may not take the charger if you were only planning to be away for an hour or so.

Sylvia Plath was observed to be very calm before she committed suicide by sticking her head into a gas oven. Her decision to end the nightmare that she perceived her life to be gave her calm in the hours before her death. I don't think RG was of that mindset. Yes! vacations are supposed to be a respite from ordinary life but they alway send us into a tizzy don't they?

I know about the PFO plate -- maybe that ticked someone off? Took the car and deposed of the driver. The chop shop ran the plates and put 2 & 2 together... and said get rid of the Mini.
 
J.J.

RG might have taken the laptop to take notes from the woman (with info) he could have been meeting? You may not take the charger if you were only planning to be away for an hour or so.

That would not be seeing him randomly.

I'm not certain that the charger would work in the car and there are about 4 hours of battery life.

If he met someone, and that person was not involved in his disappearance, why doesn't she come forward. Assume that he met a woman, an old friend and they had dinner. Why doesn't she come forward when she finds out RFG is missing? If it is a lover, why not go to LE privately? Even if she's married, she can be anonymous.

I know about the PFO plate -- maybe that ticked someone off?

Why would it, any more than the color of the car would.

Took the car and deposed of the driver. The chop shop ran the plates and put 2 & 2 together... and said get rid of the Mini.

I'm not sure that chop shop could run the plates.
 
Me? I grew up around the Johnstown area.

I would have thought you were from Altoona. :)

It should be "Waupalani Drive", but it's been a long time since Executive House Apts. in State College.

I'm not too familiar with Johnstown...but looking at pics on the web...those mountains soo look like home...I'm in SE VA now...flat...more flat....lol...and my kids are Southerners, LOL...though one could consider this the Mid-Atlantic...:crazy:
 
If a person or group is determined to murder or assassinate someone, it is hard to stop them--witness the heads of state, including American presidents, who have been shot while under full security protection.
And the leave a lot of evidence. Nobody questions that Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, and Kennedy were shot and killed.



Okay, we are talking about someone not only exceptionally bright, but experienced with criminals, not only in "little" Centre County, but in a major city. For him to be a "stalking victim" he had to be followed for an hour down remote country roads, where he could see a car following him. He would then have to be followed around Lewisburg for about 4-6 hours, both in his car and on foot.

Look at the photos of the bridge area, along Water Street. Unless a car pulled in in one of those parallel parking spot, it would be difficult to follow him after he pulled out. If it did, RFG would have spotted it.

Sorry, but I don't buy the stalker, unless the stalker was driving a car equipped with a Romulan cloaking device.

I didn't say RG was stalked. I was pointing out that many people aware of danger are murdered nonetheless. Let me say this another way: if a committed criminal or criminal organization decides to murder or assassinate a public figure, there is a track record that shows it isn't impossible. My point was that if assassins can get past the Secret Service, which is a large group of highly-trained and well-funded people dedicated to protecting a handful of individuals, they can get past the defenses of a guy supposedly out looking for antiques.

This board is full of people who were well aware that someone might murder them but could not stop it. In fact, maany ofmthem left notes or told others that if they died, so-and-so did it. Many of them had filed protection from abuse requests. Many had spouses or ex-lovers or enemies who served prison time and still got out and killed them. And of course law enforcement officers are killed on the job--six or seven in this end of the state in the past several years. Drug enforcement officers, FBI, local cops, state troopers--law enforcement personnel are vulnerable to criminals. As are DAs and federal attorneys, e.g., Jonathan Luna. (And no, I am not making any other sort of connection to that case in this post.)

If a highly organized criminal organization targetted RG or if a person he trusted
was really an enemy, I have no doubt that RG or any other person could be killed (if it was personal) or assassinated (if it was professional or political). Like some of RG's DA colleagues from other counties, I have concluded that he did not walk away or commit suicide, and that leaves foul play.
 
[
I didn't say RG was stalked. I was pointing out that many people aware of danger are murdered nonetheless. Let me say this another way: if a committed criminal or criminal organization decides to murder or assassinate a public figure, there is a track record that shows it isn't impossible. My point was that if assassins can get past the Secret Service, which is a large group of highly-trained and well-funded people dedicated to protecting a handful of individuals, they can get past the defenses of a guy supposedly out looking for antiques.

I'm sorry, but he'd basically have to be followed for 50 miles and then around Lewisburg. If there were this assassin, why not kill him when he drove through a remote area where there is no cell coverage? Why wait until he goes to a populated area?

Further, why hide the body? It wasn't to send a message.

If this was an assassin, and that is your term, why not just shoot him and worry about things like identifying the bullet. Most professions don't keep the gun.

This board is full of people who were well aware that someone might murder them but could not stop it. In fact, maany ofmthem left notes or told others that if they died, so-and-so did it. Many of them had filed protection from abuse requests.

And none of those are assassins. The tend to personal crimes. Further, in those types of cases, rarely, if ever, to they follow the person 50 miles.

I certainly think someone previously associated with some case over a period of 33 years could have murdered RFG. So could jealous husband, for that matter. However, how does that murderer know that RFG would be in Lewisburg?

Following him, because of the distance and the time, is approaching the point of impossibility. Targeting him in a public place adds to that impossibility.
 
It should be "Waupalani Drive", but it's been a long time since Executive House Apts. in State College.

I'm not too familiar with Johnstown...but looking at pics on the web...those mountains soo look like home...I'm in SE VA now...flat...more flat....lol...and my kids are Southerners, LOL...though one could consider this the Mid-Atlantic...:crazy:

Ah, that through me off.

When I was there, I lived on Atherton, College, and Park.
 
I'm sorry, but he'd basically have to be followed for 50 miles and then around Lewisburg. If there were this assassin, why not kill him when he drove through a remote area where there is no cell coverage? Why wait until he goes to a populated area?

Further, why hide the body? It wasn't to send a message.

If this was an assassin, and that is your term, why not just shoot him and worry about things like identifying the bullet. Most professions don't keep the gun.



And none of those are assassins. The tend to personal crimes. Further, in those types of cases, rarely, if ever, to they follow the person 50 miles.

I certainly think someone previously associated with some case over a period of 33 years could have murdered RFG. So could jealous husband, for that matter. However, how does that murderer know that RFG would be in Lewisburg?

Following him, because of the distance and the time, is approaching the point of impossibility. Targeting him in a public place adds to that impossibility.

He would have been set up by someone that had him meet him there not follow him, public places are where these things are done at many times, more people and activity, the better, less chance to notice and better to blend in
Why no body? Because it was important to make him disappear and not be found, which seems to relate to a case so as the time would take longer, possible stir fear, have case thrown out, provide confussion. This would mean that he might be an instrument to creat chaos and not so much as to be an instigator
 
He would have been set up by someone that had him meet him there not follow him, public places are where these things are done at many times, more people and activity, the better, less chance to notice and better to blend in

Basically, that is what I'm talking about. We can rule out some possibilities as hugely unlikely. A stalker, or an assassin stalking him can be ruled out. RFG being lured to Lewisburg is possible.

Why no body? Because it was important to make him disappear and not be found, which seems to relate to a case so as the time would take longer, possible stir fear, have case thrown out, provide confussion. This would mean that he might be an instrument to creat chaos and not so much as to be an instigator

There was no case like that. He was not prosecuting the "big drug case."
 
If a person or group is determined to murder or assassinate someone, it is hard to stop them--witness the heads of state, including American presidents, who have been shot while under full security protection.


I didn't say RG was stalked. I was pointing out that many people aware of danger are murdered nonetheless. Let me say this another way: if a committed criminal or criminal organization decides to murder or assassinate a public figure, there is a track record that shows it isn't impossible. My point was that if assassins can get past the Secret Service, which is a large group of highly-trained and well-funded people dedicated to protecting a handful of individuals, they can get past the defenses of a guy supposedly out looking for antiques.

This board is full of people who were well aware that someone might murder them but could not stop it. In fact, maany ofmthem left notes or told others that if they died, so-and-so did it. Many of them had filed protection from abuse requests. Many had spouses or ex-lovers or enemies who served prison time and still got out and killed them. And of course law enforcement officers are killed on the job--six or seven in this end of the state in the past several years. Drug enforcement officers, FBI, local cops, state troopers--law enforcement personnel are vulnerable to criminals. As are DAs and federal attorneys, e.g., Jonathan Luna. (And no, I am not making any other sort of connection to that case in this post.)

If a highly organized criminal organization targetted RG or if a person he trusted
was really an enemy, I have no doubt that RG or any other person could be killed (if it was personal) or assassinated (if it was professional or political). Like some of RG's DA colleagues from other counties, I have concluded that he did not walk away or commit suicide, and that leaves foul play.

What plausible reason would a highly organized criminal organization have for making a soon-to-be-retired DA in rural Pennsylvania vanish?
 
Unless it was to make sure that he would not speak about something, any scandels in the DA office or mayor's?
 
What does anyone know about a book being left open to 'How to replace a DA' in the office? I think I read it on JKA's site....Found it:

"I was asked last year by media if I were*aware*of*an incident in which Mr. Smith*found a volume of Purdon's Pennsylvania Statutes addressing County Code on his desk after Ray's disappearance, which when handled by him*opened to the section providing for replacement of an*elected DA who has died, become disabled or, in this case, has disappeared.* The answer is yes. *Smith brought the incident up to me within a fairly short time after Ray's disappearance.**
*
Initially that conversation created the one and only modicum of real doubt that I have ever had that what happened to Ray was likely criminal in nature. While 'walking off' would decidedly not be conduct fitting the man, if it had nonetheless occurred, taking steps to minimize the disruption it would cause would have been." http://sites.google.com/site/gricardisappearance/gricardisappearance

Oh, the book wasn't left open, it had 'muscle memory' for lack of a better term, and when handled, flipped open to that section? Would RFG leave a clue like that for Smith??? Smith was the one out of town during Ray's dissapearence?? When did Smith leave in relation to when Ray dissapeared? In otherwords...when would Ray, or someone, put the book on Smith's desk? Who would have had access to Smith's office...Smith would have prolly locked his office if he was out of town...where was Smith's office in relation to Ray's . I'm not suggesting anything, just wondering who/ when that book would be placed on Smith's desk. JKA seems to indicate that leaving the book would be a way for RFg to 'minmize disruption', then later she says she does not think Ray left the book, because he is not into game playing.
 
I'm sorry, but he'd basically have to be followed for 50 miles and then around Lewisburg. If there were this assassin, why not kill him when he drove through a remote area where there is no cell coverage? Why wait until he goes to a populated area?

Further, why hide the body? It wasn't to send a message.

If this was an assassin, and that is your term, why not just shoot him and worry about things like identifying the bullet. Most professions don't keep the gun.



And none of those are assassins. The tend to personal crimes. Further, in those types of cases, rarely, if ever, to they follow the person 50 miles.

I certainly think someone previously associated with some case over a period of 33 years could have murdered RFG. So could jealous husband, for that matter. However, how does that murderer know that RFG would be in Lewisburg?

Following him, because of the distance and the time, is approaching the point of impossibility. Targeting him in a public place adds to that impossibility.

JJ, I had two categories: (1) assassinations (if a killing is professional or political, the deliberate killing of a public figure) and (2) garden-variety murders by someone who knows the victim. (There would be a third category, murder by random violence. I had discounted that category, but what the heck. Let's leave it in.) And "assassin" need not conjure up a man behind a rock with a rifle.

You assume someone would have to track RG to Lewisburg. Not if RG didn't go alone. Not if RG had planned to meet someone in Lewisburg (personal or professional). Not if RG told someone he was taking a day and driving to Lewisburg and that someone was the killer or told someone else. Not if RG encountered someone by chance in Lewisburg who killed him. Not if he had a tracker on the vehicle. Not if RG was killed elsewhere and the car dumped in Lewisburg. Aside from the eyewitnesses who claim to have seen RG (none of whom were family, close friends, or close colleagues) there is no evidence that he ever made it to Lewisburg, unless there are active cell pings from his cell from Lewisburg, and that would only show that the cell phone was there.

As to why hide the body? The body is "best evidence." It would eliminate or uphold, potentially, suicide and conclusively end speculation that RG was a runaway.
1. Family members and close friends hide the body often in order to make a case for "runaway," e.g., "my wife isn't dead, she's missing."
2. In RG's case, hiding the body allows people to call up the idea that RG might have committed suicide, as his brother was purported to have done. Without a body, that scenario can't be eliminated.
3. Professional killers (whether from organized crime or serial murderers) hide the body for the same reasons. Where, pray tell, is Jimmy Hoffa? Has anyone gone to prison for his murder? It is very hard to prosecute a case when there is no body or the body has decomposed to the point where cause of death cannot be determined.
4. Killers hide bodies because there is something about the site of the murder, the manner of the murder, the weapon, or the state of the body that would give away their secret.
5. When killers hide the body, what LE is investigating is not a murder, but a missing persons case. There is no determined crime scene, minimal forensics, no witnesses--just a missing adult who has the right to walk away. If a person wants to kill a sitting DA, either for personal reasons or "professional" ones, the best bet is to get rid of the body. As Joran van der Sloot's father famously remarked, "No body, no crime."

There are probably 4 or 5 more reasons, but those will do.
 
Oh, the book wasn't left open, it had 'muscle memory' for lack of a better term, and when handled, flipped open to that section? Would RFG leave a clue like that for Smith??? Smith was the one out of town during Ray's dissapearence?? When did Smith leave in relation to when Ray dissapeared? In otherwords...when would Ray, or someone, put the book on Smith's desk? Who would have had access to Smith's office...Smith would have prolly locked his office if he was out of town...where was Smith's office in relation to Ray's . I'm not suggesting anything, just wondering who/ when that book would be placed on Smith's desk. JKA seems to indicate that leaving the book would be a way for RFg to 'minmize disruption', then later she says she does not think Ray left the book, because he is not into game playing.

From what crude experiments I did, the book would have "flipped back" if checked on 4/14/05. There is a blog on it. :)
 
You assume someone would have to track RG to Lewisburg. Not if RG didn't go alone.

No evidence or witnesses pointing to someone else riding in the car.

Not if RG had planned to meet someone in Lewisburg (personal or professional).

Possible, but this is the luring scenario, again, the "Meeting for Murder."


Not if RG told someone he was taking a day and driving to Lewisburg and that someone was the killer or told someone else.

And, the killer would still have to get to Lewisburg and know where in Lewisburg RFG was. It is not the size of a city block. There would also be the chance that when the killer got there RFG would have already gone.

Not if RG encountered someone by chance in Lewisburg who killed him. Not if he had a tracker on the vehicle.

Chance is just too "chancy." The tracker is hugely unlikely, and RFG parked and got out, so he'd have to be tracked.

Not if RG was killed elsewhere and the car dumped in Lewisburg.
Aside from the eyewitnesses who claim to have seen RG (none of whom were family, close friends, or close colleagues) there is no evidence that he ever made it to Lewisburg, unless there are active cell pings from his cell from Lewisburg, and that would only show that the cell phone was there.

We have not only multiple eye witnesses, but his scent in the parking area, and a water bottle with his DNA. We have both eyewitness and physical evidence.

As to why hide the body? The body is "best evidence." It would eliminate or uphold, potentially, suicide and conclusively end speculation that RG was a runaway.

Why hide the body if this is an assassin (again, your word)?

Why do go to all the trouble of hiding a body, when you can potentially be seen disposing of it? It increases the killer's risk of getting caught.
 
From what crude experiments I did, the book would have "flipped back" if checked on 4/14/05. There is a blog on it. :)

Canyou provide a link to the Sporadic Comment on the book?

I noticed JKA referenced the same entry when she brought up that she was let go.

I know the use of 'paramour' has been questioned... But maybe it's just an old fashioned word, not always illict or derogatory:
'paramour - a woman who cohabits with an important man' from dictionary.com.

Maybe a percieved 'fraternization' issue?
 
Canyou provide a link to the Sporadic Comment on the book?

I noticed JKA referenced the same entry when she brought up that she was let go.

http://www.centredaily.com/2009/04/01/2396725/the-code-book.html

In regard to the book, I could not duplicate the "automatic opening" three days later, with either a hard cover or soft cover book. It leads me to believe that someone checked that morning, or the night before.

A general index is here: http://www.centredaily.com/2011/03/21/2597340/main-index-32011.html

As I've said, I don't think calling RFG "Patty's paramour," by anyone, would have been appropriate either.
 
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