Pageant Kids: A Rant

[Texana]

I wonder if there are pageants and then there are Pageants, just as there are parents and then there are Stage Parents.

I see the same thing with dance studios, cheerleading, etc. There are cheerleading gyms where seven year olds wear midriff tops, and groups where the little ones wear cute little dresses.

My own daughters are with a pre-professional dance company and dance academy. There is no glitter make up! It is very disciplined but they work hard to have a positive atmosphere for all the dancers.

Even so, there are competitive parents and those who just get downright nasty. There are truly gifted dancers and there are good dancers, and some people get really crazy if their child is not either one, instead of finding out what their child IS good at--I don't get it. Hey, my kids are not going to be WNBA stars, but you don't see me getting ugly with the other parents about it!

There is one parent whose child is also in pageants,and she is a Stage Mom with a capital S. I hope she's not representative of all the pageant parents--but it makes me wonder.

 

[openminded1]

I agree the government doesn't have a right to intercede unless there is abuse.The thing I am concerned about is the message that "just smile" and be quiet. I know it doesn't apply in every case but it does set a precedent for the future.

Children are just that, children. They rely on parental support and parental guidance. JonBenet was especially presented in an unnatural light. No one can tell me that a 6 year is expected to live up to a contrived image.

With that said boys who are recruited for baseball at a young age deserve another consideration. I think we need to let children be children. We cannot expect them to be adults...they aren't.

Great post!

I think, for a lot of these kids- at least the one I know, the pageants are just a snapshot of the child's life. I am sure there are parents who want their children to live up to an adult image, and I certainly do not agree with that. I'm sure their are people whose lives are consumed by these pageants, and I- personally- don't agree with that either. The pageant kid I know does get dressed up in glitzy clothes and makeup for the pageants, just as my own child does for dance recitals, but neither child is put out there and expected to act like or be seen a small adult. When the pageant or recital is over, the kids put jeans back on and do whatever it is they usually do.

True, kids need to be treated like kids- but like the kids they are- not what someone else decides a kid of a certain age should be like. I have said in previous posts that I have a unique child, and while she has some typical 5 year old interests like playing with toys and getting silly on the playground, she also has some interests not typical of a 5 year old. We are lucky enough to be able to provide her with an environment where she can be the kid she is- no more, no less. I will never forget when she was 3, we were at the library, and she was reading to me out of a book she was very excited about. A woman came by and said, "You should let her be a kid." What this woman didn't understand was that my daughter was being a kid- the kid she is. I am not a pageant mom, so I am not about to sit here in judgement of someone who says their child wants to pursue this type of activity, just as I don't want others making false assumtions when my child is pursuing interests not typical of 5 year old girls. I'm not them, I don't walk in their shoes every day.

I think the kids who would be damaged by the attitude parents take toward pageants are likely to be damaged anyway- even if the pageants did not exist. I feel really sorry for those little girls in dance that cry when they get on stage, or are too immature to follow instructions and end up wasting time of the kids who really want to be there. I don't know how to stop it, though.

Who was JonBenet really? What kind of a kid was she? I think it is very sad that the world will never know.

 

[southcitymom]

Sounds to me like you're doing a great job as a mom. And I had to laugh when you mentioned the "weapon" thing because although I have been a steadfast pacifist and abhor all types of violence (verbal etc.) when my son was little, his focus was frequently "weapon, weapon, weapon", so much so that it became a bit of a joke between us. I don't like to see little girls with nail polish etc. BUT I can hardly be judgmental about that since I never had any daughters and I dislike weapons MORE than nail polish and yet there was my son during the Teenage Ninja turtle period (and beyond) going "weapon, weapon, weapon" which I never got used to, all the while avoiding making his life difficult because of that fixation. It ain't easy.

The problem is that "it takes a village to raise a child" and that the media constantly shapes our kids' interests through toys, games, TV shows, clothing etc. etc. So all I could really do was express my opinion and present it as such while attempting the hard balancing act of respecting his tastes and yet doing my best to point out certain problems I saw with the fads. I did a lot of "some people think this" and "some people think that".

But MY opinion is that NO ONE gains through sex-typing. IMO these pageants DO reinforce it. How many people would feel confortable having their sons in beauty pageants? Maybe some, but much fewer.

I'm not sure that Linda Arndt was right about JR being the perp (I'm not sure she was wrong either) but I DO think that I agree with her that there was a generally problematic family dynamic here and I think that it had a lot to do with sex-typing and outdated gender-conditioning notions. So, did the son here perhaps also behave in a rough sex-typed way and unintentionally put an end to his sister's life? Who knows...

One thing is for sure ... I think these issues on this thread are related to this case and may in fact be at the root of my interest in it. And then along comes John Karr, who, although in my books, did NOT commit this crime, waltzes into the story .... with purported .... gender issues. Interesting, don't you think?

JMO

You're so kind! I DO get the weapon thing. I too am a peace-loving person, not given to weapons, but I found that my sons just made everything into a weapon (wooden spoons, sticks, tinkertoys), so I that's not a battle I wage with them. My husband says he was the same way as a boy and that man is gentle as a lamb, so I just chalk it up to testosterone and make believe.

As far as sex-typing goes, what you say is true. I am a big believer in the yin and the yang, the feminine and the masculine - all that. BUT, we put too great an emphasis on women's looks in this society. I grew up reading Seventeen and Cosmopolitan and I struggled constantly with the thought that I wasn't pretty enough, skinny enough, etc... These pageants do reinforce that cultural stereotype and it is sad. And yes, why don't we have a Little Mr. Whatever County Pageant where we can gussy up our sons and let people judge them on how cute they look?

I too find it fascinating that Karr has surfaced because - as you note - his gender bending proclivities AND his sexual preferences touch on some key issues surrounding this case. I am not very well-educated on how incest effects the family dynamic, but Linda Arndt (I read her depo last week) certainly knows a lot about it.

 

[Hyatt]

I wonder if there are pageants and then there are Pageants, just as there are parents and then there are Stage Parents.

I see the same thing with dance studios, cheerleading, etc. There are cheerleading gyms where seven year olds wear midriff tops, and groups where the little ones wear cute little dresses.

My own daughters are with a pre-professional dance company and dance academy. There is no glitter make up! It is very disciplined but they work hard to have a positive atmosphere for all the dancers.

Even so, there are competitive parents and those who just get downright nasty. There are truly gifted dancers and there are good dancers, and some people get really crazy if their child is not either one, instead of finding out what their child IS good at--I don't get it. Hey, my kids are not going to be WNBA stars, but you don't see me getting ugly with the other parents about it!

There is one parent whose child is also in pageants,and she is a Stage Mom with a capital S. I hope she's not representative of all the pageant parents--but it makes me wonder.

Good post. I think you're right. There are many nuances to take into consideration. I loved the Shirley Temple and (more recently) the young McCauley Kulkin movies and I find many child performances wonderful. Now their lives may not have been a piece of cake but that's another story. What I wanted to say about your post was this: On LKL, Larry asked Patsy if she was a stage mother and she answered: "Yes. What's wrong with that?". Well, I think that there is a LOT wrong with that but she clearly didn't see it, which signalled a problem for me because whatever trip you're into, it's good to know what the other side of the coin is all about.

JMO

 

[Hyatt]

Great post!

I think, for a lot of these kids- at least the one I know, the pageants are just a snapshot of the child's life. I am sure there are parents who want their children to live up to an adult image, and I certainly do not agree with that. I'm sure their are people whose lives are consumed by these pageants, and I- personally- don't agree with that either. The pageant kid I know does get dressed up in glitzy clothes and makeup for the pageants, just as my own child does for dance recitals, but neither child is put out there and expected to act like or be seen a small adult. When the pageant or recital is over, the kids put jeans back on and do whatever it is they usually do.

True, kids need to be treated like kids- but like the kids they are- not what someone else decides a kid of a certain age should be like. I have said in previous posts that I have a unique child, and while she has some typical 5 year old interests like playing with toys and getting silly on the playground, she also has some interests not typical of a 5 year old. We are lucky enough to be able to provide her with an environment where she can be the kid she is- no more, no less. I will never forget when she was 3, we were at the library, and she was reading to me out of a book she was very excited about. A woman came by and said, "You should let her be a kid." What this woman didn't understand was that my daughter was being a kid- the kid she is. I am not a pageant mom, so I am not about to sit here in judgement of someone who says their child wants to pursue this type of activity, just as I don't want others making false assumtions when my child is pursuing interests not typical of 5 year old girls. I'm not them, I don't walk in their shoes every day.

I think the kids who would be damaged by the attitude parents take toward pageants are likely to be damaged anyway- even if the pageants did not exist. I feel really sorry for those little girls in dance that cry when they get on stage, or are too immature to follow instructions and end up wasting time of the kids who really want to be there. I don't know how to stop it, though.

Who was JonBenet really? What kind of a kid was she? I think it is very sad that the world will never know.

You know what Openminded1, I'm very happy to see that we have found a point of agreement. I agree with every single word of your last two paragraphs. And particularly I find it too bad that the whole world "knows" JonBenet and yet, just as you say: no one really knows JonBenet at all. It breaks my heart.

JMO

 

[openminded1]

You know what Openminded1, I'm very happy to see that we have found a point of agreement. I agree with every single word of your last two paragraphs. And particularly I find it too bad that the whole world "knows" JonBenet and yet, just as you say: no one really knows JonBenet at all. It breaks my heart.

JMO

Thanks

Thinking about JonBenet gets me especially teary because she was close in age to my little girl. She had so much potential.

 

[concernedperson]

How can we know JonBenet? She was a child and didn't know herself yet. This is a baby, she was 6 years old.People please get on the same page of child abuse and murder.Whoever did this should pay for the lifetime that caused this little girl's death.

 

[dingo]

Thanks

Thinking about JonBenet gets me especially teary because she was close in age to my little girl. She had so much potential.

Weve seen so much footage of JB doing her paegent stuff but I cant remember seeing any videos of her just being a little girl..maybe thay exist but we just havent seen them

 

[cappuccina]

...I asked you to provide me with data that state that pageeants are a normal, healthy part of child development. You answered by saying that they exist, and a lot of people participate, therefore they're OK. Not good.

That's like saying that there are, in fact, a huge number of Americans who eat fast food all the time, therefore to do this all the time is good and OK...N'uh-uh....

Almost every American has a TV set in their living room. We do not, and never have, because, I for one, do not believe in doing something that is not good just because "everyone else does..."

The "closest to the truth" about JBR I believe came from the housekeepers' accounts, and accounts of others who worked with JonBenet...She sounds like a well-meaning, but spoiled and frustrated child, who did not know proper boundaries )e.g., asking anyone who was around to help her on the toilet), and had some developmental delays, even though she had the talent for singing and dancing on cue, etc. The dysfunction in the house was enormous. PR comes across as an untreated bipolar indiividual with an overlayed character flaw - NPD....JR is also narcisstic, but he is also "numbed out", i.e., he has a blunted affect which seems to change only when he gets angry at someone. Sorry, OM, but oversexualizing a kindergartner is not normal, and is not a valid parental choice, and that is why we do. in fact, have governmental intervention - for the abuse and neglect of children.

(BTW, I am the product of the one of the best public school systems in the country, and one of the best public universities in the country, if you want to get into the homeschooling debate with me; that is another area that I think is BEGGING for standards and regulation).

 

[southcitymom]

...

(BTW, I am the product of the one of the best public school systems in the country, and one of the best public universities in the country, if you want to get into the homeschooling debate with me; that is another area that I think is BEGGING for standards and regulation).

I'll bite, even tho it's OT - why do you think homeschooling needs more governmental standards and regulations?

 

[openminded1]

...I asked you to provide me with data that state that pageeants are a normal, healthy part of child development. You answered by saying that they exist, and a lot of people participate, therefore they're OK. Not good.

That's like saying that there are, in fact, a huge number of Americans who eat fast food all the time, therefore to do this all the time is good and OK...N'uh-uh....

The point I am trying to make is that it is not yours nor anyone else's right to decide what is "good" and "not good" or "normal" and "not normal". You don't have a TV, I do...does that make you better than me somehow? Does that make me better than you somehow?

I happen to homeschool my child because the public school system in my town (by their own admission) can not accomodate her special needs. I agree there needs to be more regulation in homeschooling- especially in my state.

The point of JonBenet being sexualized is your opinion. There are also people in this world with the opinion little girls shouldn't wear pants. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Texana]

Good post. I think you're right. There are many nuances to take into consideration. I loved the Shirley Temple and (more recently) the young McCauley Kulkin movies and I find many child performances wonderful. Now their lives may not have been a piece of cake but that's another story. What I wanted to say about your post was this: On LKL, Larry asked Patsy if she was a stage mother and she answered: "Yes. What's wrong with that?". Well, I think that there is a LOT wrong with that but she clearly didn't see it, which signalled a problem for me because whatever trip you're into, it's good to know what the other side of the coin is all about.

JMO

Exactly! At our dance academy, "stage mother" is not a term anyone wants--

Also, I've been thinking, there are those children who are just naturally great at pageants. It's their niche. They have the looks, the stage presence, the poise, and enough talent for the talent part. Then there are those who are good--they make up the second place and third place winners--and they may excel more at the talent or personality part--but they don't have the overall package. They make the competition possible for the great ones. Then there are the ones who just stink,frankly. They usually don't make it to the national levels of competition, but in the young stages, they are painful to watch.

Their parents are clearly driving them and pushing them. They think if they spend enough hours on little Suzie and enough dollars on coaches and dresses and make up, little Suzie can be just as good as little Janie.

But little Janie has been blessed genetically in this game, and she can do it. And as other posters have noted-- the little Janies do love it. They're good at it. They can win at it. It's fun for them.

It's the same with baseball, basketball, violin, and dance. It's even the same in a lesser degree with math and science--there are camps, coaches, and parents pushing their children to succeed in those fields as well, when clearly the children are not happy and at their best. There are the ones who are great naturally, the ones who are good and enjoy it but don't go on to have a career in it, and the ones who--let's be frank--just stink--but for whatever reasons their parents keep pushing them.

JonBenet was clearly one of the winners in the pageants, and I think she did like it. She probably shared the love of performing with her mother. Like any child, she enjoyed receiving attention for something she was good at, and her parents enjoyed that as well.

 

[celia]

The pageant kid I know does get dressed up in glitzy clothes and makeup for the pageants, just as my own child does for dance recitals, but neither child is put out there and expected to act like or be seen a small adult. When the pageant or recital is over, the kids put jeans back on and do whatever it is they usually do.

Oh puleezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..
If this is true, I would venture a guess that you are unusual, amongst the "stage mother" set...
The proof of this has been documented, in many places, including the internet/TV/films.....these poor little kids rarely live a normal life.....

Jonbenet is an easy example...
She attended her first day at kindergarten/school?, dressed up as tho she was attending an audience with the queen of England......no comfortable little overalls, & sneakers!
She fought with her mother, about wearing matching mother/daughter outfits....
She was given a doll for Xmas, that had been made to satify her mothers fantasies, not hers...
She couldnt read, but had a large repotoire(sp) of song & dance routines , off pat....
She had to wear underwear that corresponded with the correct day of the week....

Please tell me how any of this suggests the "normal" lifestyle , for a 6 yr old...?????????

 

[kazzbar]

Oh puleezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..
If this is true, I would venture a guess that you are unusual, amongst the "stage mother" set...
The proof of this has been documented, in many places, including the internet/TV/films.....these poor little kids rarely live a normal life.....

Jonbenet is an easy example...
She attended her first day at kindergarten/school?, dressed up as tho she was attending an audience with the queen of England......no comfortable little overalls, & sneakers!
She fought with her mother, about wearing matching mother/daughter outfits....
She was given a doll for Xmas, that had been made to satify her mothers fantasies, not hers...
She couldnt read, but had a large repotoire(sp) of song & dance routines , off pat....
She had to wear underwear that corresponded with the correct day of the week....

Please tell me how any of this suggests the "normal" lifestyle , for a 6 yr old...?????????

It is all very 'odd' to me.Mother Daughter matching outfits- how distasteful. If I tried to do any of the above things to my 7yr old daughter she would just plain refuse.There is 'no' way she would do any of these things. The only things she loves to do is read and play with stuffed toy animals.

 

[openminded1]

Oh puleezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..
If this is true, I would venture a guess that you are unusual, amongst the "stage mother" set...
The proof of this has been documented, in many places, including the internet/TV/films.....these poor little kids rarely live a normal life.....

Jonbenet is an easy example...
She attended her first day at kindergarten/school?, dressed up as tho she was attending an audience with the queen of England......no comfortable little overalls, & sneakers!
She fought with her mother, about wearing matching mother/daughter outfits....
She was given a doll for Xmas, that had been made to satify her mothers fantasies, not hers...
She couldnt read, but had a large repotoire(sp) of song & dance routines , off pat....
She had to wear underwear that corresponded with the correct day of the week....

Please tell me how any of this suggests the "normal" lifestyle , for a 6 yr old...?????????

If you mean stage mother as in I help my daughter's instuctors by being dressing room mom and supervising kids at parades, then yes, in that sense I am a stage mother.

I was only allowed to wear dresses to school. My mother wouldn't have dared send me to school in overalls. On the first day of school all the little girls wore their very best dresses.

My daughter often fights with me about having to dress up for church, but I am not about to send her in playclothes.

My daughter does not play with dolls either. She does have a My Twinn doll like the one Jon Benet got for Xmas. I expect she will treaure that in years to come. It has nothing to do with a fantasy, but with creating a memory.

She couldn't read at 6 years old? I had no idea about that. I do think that is a shame.

My daughter loves her day of the week underwear. Lots of kids my daughter's age have day of the week underwear.

Like I keep saying- it is not your or anyone else's place to decide what is normal for a 6 year old. Children are individuals, not a species of animal that needs to be treated a certain way beased on how old they are.

 

[Hyatt]

...I asked you to provide me with data that state that pageeants are a normal, healthy part of child development. You answered by saying that they exist, and a lot of people participate, therefore they're OK. Not good.

That's like saying that there are, in fact, a huge number of Americans who eat fast food all the time, therefore to do this all the time is good and OK...N'uh-uh....

Almost every American has a TV set in their living room. We do not, and never have, because, I for one, do not believe in doing something that is not good just because "everyone else does..."

The "closest to the truth" about JBR I believe came from the housekeepers' accounts, and accounts of others who worked with JonBenet...She sounds like a well-meaning, but spoiled and frustrated child, who did not know proper boundaries )e.g., asking anyone who was around to help her on the toilet), and had some developmental delays, even though she had the talent for singing and dancing on cue, etc. The dysfunction in the house was enormous. PR comes across as an untreated bipolar indiividual with an overlayed character flaw - NPD....JR is also narcisstic, but he is also "numbed out", i.e., he has a blunted affect which seems to change only when he gets angry at someone. Sorry, OM, but oversexualizing a kindergartner is not normal, and is not a valid parental choice, and that is why we do. in fact, have governmental intervention - for the abuse and neglect of children.

(BTW, I am the product of the one of the best public school systems in the country, and one of the best public universities in the country, if you want to get into the homeschooling debate with me; that is another area that I think is BEGGING for standards and regulation).

Wow, Cappuccina, that fourth paragraph of the portrait of the Ramses captures exactly what I have pictured them as. I see exactly what you see there. But isn't it funny that you did not mention Burke and frankly he's the one that remains more of a mystery to me. What I primarily recall about him came fromt the Thomas book where ST mentioned that during his interview, he seemed to be more interested in getting a watch or something and didn't seem to behave as if he was particularly touched by the events happening around him. I'm curious, how would you characterize him?

JMO

 

[LoneDuck]

JonBenet was clearly one of the winners in the pageants, and I think she did like it. She probably shared the love of performing with her mother. Like any child, she enjoyed receiving attention for something she was good at, and her parents enjoyed that as well.

I agree, Texana.

Celia

Jonbenet is an easy example...
She attended her first day at kindergarten/school?, dressed up as tho she was attending an audience with the queen of England......no comfortable little overalls, & sneakers!
She fought with her mother, about wearing matching mother/daughter outfits....
She was given a doll for Xmas, that had been made to satify her mothers fantasies, not hers...
She couldnt read, but had a large repotoire(sp) of song & dance routines , off pat....
She had to wear underwear that corresponded with the correct day of the week....

What do any of these have to do with JonBenet being in pageants? Some girls are more comfortable in dresses and we've heard enough by now to say Jonbenet wasn't shy about disagreeing with her mother on what to wear. Maybe she chose it because she liked it.

I'm sure you're aware that we have kids of all ages who struggle with reading. Comparing her lack of reading skills to being able to memorize a song and dance routine is weak. Memorization is easier for kids.

Patsy's fantasies by giving JonBenet the doll? Huh? What kind of fantasies? My grandmother made me a doll that looked like me when I was eight or so. I loved it. Jonbenet didn't like her doll. Big deal. Maybe she would've warmed up to it later or maybe not.

What does the Day of the Week underwear have to do with anything?

And what is a "normal" lifestyle for a six year old? The lifestyles are as different as the kids themselves.

 

[wenchie]

I am clueless as to how anyone can compare a dance recital to those hideous children's pageants.

 

[openminded1]

I am clueless as to how anyone can compare a dance recital to those hideous children's pageants.

Glitzy costumes, makeup, little girls "shaking their biscuits"

 

[LoneDuck]

Dance recitals were compared when people were pointing at pageant attire and saying it was inappropriate. They were pointing at certain moves and saying they were sexual. You can find the same thing at dance recitals regarding the outfits and supposed sexual moves. But pageants are evil and creepy and crawling with pedophiles whereas dance recitals are completely free of pedophiles.