Parents On This Forum: Answer Me This!

[Details]

Sorry, I don't understand. How the preservation of civil and constitutional rights or its exercise obstruct justice? By definition ARE justice.

No they are not. A murderer being convicted, an innocent man being released is justice. A criminal walking free, and the innocent being killed is not justice.

You are mixing up the means with the ends. Justice is the desired end. Your rights are all about the price we've decided suspects and witnesses can and cannot be asked to pay to achieve justice.

 

[sandraladeda]

Several reasons:

1. - In this country you don't have to prove your innocence, you are.

2. - The State must prove that you are guilty, you have no obligation to make their case for the police or prosecutor.

3. - You don't have to provide anything you don't want to.

4. - Why would you cooperate with the police if they are investigating you?

I have a question, Pedro, are you saying that, if you were a parent, in the R's shoes, knowing your rights, you would not hand over requested phone records, because "you don't have to"?

Thank you.

 

[Pedro]

In a normal investigation, you would no more be allowed to keep the police from the phone records of where the body was found, than from the forensics.

S U B P O E N A

This is a murder investigation.

You can't not give investigators evidence because you don't want to or because you think you are a suspect. (At least not most of the time.)

The whole scenario seems hinkier and hinkier...

You are right: this is a murder investigation thus the protection against self incrimination and irreasonable search and seizure apply unlike in the civil litigation you refer to as "property settlement dispute"

Yes, you can deny anything to anyone unless is obtained according to the law in any criminal case at any time.

 

[s_finch]

Several reasons:

1. - In this country you don't have to prove your innocence, you are.

2. - The State must prove that you are guilty, you have no obligation to make their case for the police or prosecutor.

3. - You don't have to provide anything you don't want to.

4. - Why would you cooperate with the police if they are investigating you?

Very simply because if I were innocent the sooner LE scratches me off their list, the sooner they can find the true perp.

 

[Details]

Most of the time, nearly all of the time, I'd give the police everything they want - polygraph, access to records w/o a warrent, etc. But there have been a few cases where I believe if I was there, I wouldn't do that, since I'd be recognizing a pattern in the behavior indicating that they were fixated on proving something true by any means necessary. And they honestly believe in it, they believe they are doing the right thing - and sometimes they are wrong. In that kind of case, I'd be much more careful. One person repeating a joke I've made often about killing my husband for the insurance money could suddenly become the key witness against me.

 

[Pedro]

No they are not. A murderer being convicted, an innocent man being released is justice. A criminal walking free, and the innocent being killed is not justice.

You are mixing up the means with the ends. Justice is the desired end. Your rights are all about the price we've decided suspects and witnesses can and cannot be asked to pay to achieve justice.

I don't think so, the exercise of your rights and those rights are justice. Justice ultimate task is the preservation of our right, from life to the pursue of happiness and many others in between.

The rights are not the means, the rights and its preservation are the ends and thus are justice.

Please give me one example where justice is not the preservation of someones rights, including the rights of the people represented by the state.

 

[s_finch]

No they are not. A murderer being convicted, an innocent man being released is justice. A criminal walking free, and the innocent being killed is not justice.

You are mixing up the means with the ends. Justice is the desired end. Your rights are all about the price we've decided suspects and witnesses can and cannot be asked to pay to achieve justice.

Well said!

 

[Pedro]

Very simply because if I were innocent the sooner LE scratches me off their list, the sooner they can find the true perp.

And you know LE is going to get off your case? Lucky you!
I would exercise my rights and cover my *advertiser censored*.

 

[sandraladeda]

Very simply because if I were innocent the sooner LE scratches me off their list, the sooner they can find the true perp.

I am the same as you. I'd be doing a lie detector test, handing over phone records, opening up my whole life to the police!

 

[Pedro]

I have a question, Pedro, are you saying that, if you were a parent, in the R's shoes, knowing your rights, you would not hand over requested phone records, because "you don't have to"?

Thank you.

I will not cooperate with the police unless my attorney advices me to do so, in his/her presence, setting the terms and conditions and knowing as much as possible of what they got.

And even then, I won't provide any information that could be used against me, because in most cases, it will be used against me.

And yes, I will not provide anything because I see no reason to make the case against myself.

Do they want to find the perp? I will cooperate. Do they want to prosecute me? not on my dime!

 

[Jolynna]

As I have said over and over, phone records can be as (in some cases more) important to a murder investigation as the forensics.

JonBenet was found in the Ramsey's house. She was murdered there. She had lived there all of her life.

The killer is more likely to be found in phone records than from a random codis DNA match. Especially since the RN evidence toward the perp having information about the family.

 

[Pedro]

As I have said over and over, phone records can be as (in some cases more) important to a murder investigation as the forensics.

JonBenet was found in the Ramsey's house. She was murdered there. She had lived there all of her life.

The killer is more likely to be found in phone records as from a random codis DNA match. Especially since the RN evidence toward the perp having information about the family.

Ok, so tell me. How do you obtain those phone records? Yes those are important but how do you get those?

 

[Jolynna]

Ok, so tell me. How do you obtain those phone records? Yes those are important but how do you get those?

When essential records are withheld, the DA subpoenas them.

Always.

 

[Details]

I don't think so, the exercise of your rights and those rights are justice. Justice ultimate task is the preservation of our right, from life to the pursue of happiness and many others in between.

The rights are not the means, the rights and its preservation are the ends and thus are justice.

Please give me one example where justice is not the preservation of someones rights, including the rights of the people represented by the state.

Sure. Whenever we convict a criminal, we strip them of their rights (most particularly to liberty, and sometimes their right to life - but persuit of happiness is harder to take away) - and that is justice. Justice isn't about rights, it's about ensuring those deserving of punishment get it. From dictionary.com

1.the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness: to uphold the justice of a cause. 2.rightfulness or lawfulness, as of a claim or title; justness of ground or reason: to complain with justice. 3.the moral principle determining just conduct. 4.conformity to this principle, as manifested in conduct; just conduct, dealing, or treatment. 5.the administering of deserved punishment or reward. 6.the maintenance or administration of what is just by law, as by judicial or other proceedings: a court of justice. 7.judgment of persons or causes by judicial process: to administer justice in a community. 8.a judicial officer; a judge or magistrate. 9.(initial capital letter

) Also called Justice Department. the Department of Justice. —Idioms 10.bring to justice, to cause to come before a court for trial or to receive punishment for one's misdeeds: The murderer was brought to justice. 11.do justice, a.to act or treat justly or fairly. b.to appreciate properly: We must see this play again to do it justice. c.to acquit in accordance with one's abilities or potentialities: He finally got a role in which he could do himself justice as an actor.

While I think we're mostly talking about #5, 6, and 10, you'll notice none of the definitions mention anything about preserving rights.

 

[s_finch]

And you know LE is going to get off your case? Lucky you!
I would exercise my rights and cover my *advertiser censored*.

I'd rather give LE what they need and work with them 1000% to help find the perp, than worry that they might accidentally finger me incorrectly.

Suppose JR and PR are/were innocent, but they took your approach (as you've already explained your stance on "justice", "rights", etc...) because they could and because that's "justice". Well, we're 10 years down the road, PR and JR still are under that umbrella, the perp hasn't been caught and justice has not been served.


Mark Klass, however, took the approach I believe I would take, and look how much better it worked. He immediately went to LE and said "give me a polygraph, look at me closely, because I'm innocent and the sooner you realize I'm not the one you're looking for, the sooner you/we can move on to finding the perp" and that is exactly what happened.

Maybe since I've known the LE here personally all my life and because many of them are personal friends and because myself and my family have always had a clean slate, I'm not afraid of being falsely accused. Could I be framed? Sure, anyone could and maybe JR was framed. However, IF I were innocent, I would have to find myself in an extreme predicament before I'd withhold evidence that I thought might could lead to the capture of the perp. Oh, and protecting a spouse, preserving a lifestyle and protecting another child of mine from the truth, do not qualify for "extreme predicament".

 

[s_finch]

When essential records are withheld, the DA subpoenas them.

Always.

The DA subpoenas them ALWAYS when the DA is honest and not in cahoots.

 

[celia]

I honestly don't know how I would respond if one of my children were murdered. I have a good friend whose teenage daughter was killed in an accident a few years ago. My friend to this day will say that she responded totally opposite of how she always thought she would respond if one of her children died. In her mind, she thought she would have been crying, have to be sedated, out of control, etc... In reality, she got the family and friends all together at the hospital into a circle, prayed aloud and thanked God for the time that she had had her daughter here on earth; she thanked all the friends who had come and supported the family at the hospital, etc... At the funeral she was very composed and appreciative to all the persons who attended. She says that she does not know why she was so calm and in control. Her meltdown came weeks later, at home alone. Only her family and closest friends ever knew that she went through he** at home. When I think of Patsy & John and their reactions, I think of my friend and how she has said over and over that she never expected herself to act the way she did. Having gone through that situation, I don't think I know myself well enough to know what I would do, or how I would act.

Exactly, Nehemiah!
I like to think that if I found myself in these circumstances, I would remain strong & focused on justice, in the midst of my grief...
But...I may fall apart, attempt to bury my head in the sand, refuse to discuss it...
Who knows....until it actually happens to them?
Losing a child would be the absolute worst thing that could happen to you, IMO....losing a child in this fashion, is beyond comprehension for me......I can only intellectually imagine the pain around something this terrible......& only imagining it, makes my stomach lurch!

 

[Pedro]

When essential records are withheld, the DA subpoenas them.

Always.

And How the DA does that?

 

[Pedro]

Justice isn't about rights, it's about ensuring those deserving of punishment get it

Look deeper: What is the act that makes a crime? a violation of someone else's rights.

Why do we punish people when they violate other people's rights? Because society protects the right of its individuals and thus protects itself.

When JBR was murdered she was deprived of her right to life, when we get the perp and punish him we do so to protect society which means the rights of the individuals in the society subject to the action.

Rights are the end, the protection of rights is the end of justice, the justice system is the mean to protect our rights as individuals and as group.

 

[julianne]

Mark Klass, however, took the approach I believe I would take, and look how much better it worked. He immediately went to LE and said "give me a polygraph, look at me closely, because I'm innocent and the sooner you realize I'm not the one you're looking for, the sooner you/we can move on to finding the perp" and that is exactly what happened.

Mark Klass was never a suspect, as indicated by LE.

Also, it was clear from the very beginning that Boulder LE were in waaaay over their heads. Keystone Cops at their finest, bumbling everything up, interfering with evidence, picking up and moving a murder victim.....

The difference between the Petaluma LE and the Boulder LE is like the difference between the Top Cop in the country and Barney Fife.

Upon seeing how they did their jobs and how unprofessional they were, AND with advice from my attorney, I would be limited in giving them anything they asked for. Any LE who closes their circle of suspects and just concentrates on one person simply because they are preserving their rights only reiterates that it was a good idea to preserve those rights in the first place, IMO.