Parents On This Forum: Answer Me This!

[julianne]

I personally don't think if I were to stand in the street naked it would bring anyone justice.

I just saw your post after I posted mine, JBean. Agreed.

 

[julianne]

Was LE successful in showing probable cause to obtain the records? If so and the R's refused, I agree and I think they shoudl be held in contempt.
If LE was not successful, the ther was a reason for that.

Bingo. A judge, in a legal proceeding, lawfully declared there was no probable cause.

Now, if you don't question LE's decision to attempt to get the records because, in their statement, they are LE and they want them to advance an investigation, how can you question the judge's decision to not allow LE to obtain them because in the judge's eyes it wouldn't have advanced the investigation?

 

[s_finch]

Was LE successful in showing probable cause to obtain the records? If so and the R's refused, I agree and I think they shoudl be held in contempt.
If LE was not successful, the ther was a reason for that.
Regarding the red car, I think if my sons were driving in the vicinity of the kidnapping and eye witnesses ID'd a red car, yes they should consent to a search.

So the standards that your kids adhere to are stricter than those the R's are held to.

LE wanted the records but the R's were not ordered to turn them over. "Probable cause" in Boulder isn't the same as "probable cause" in the rest of the US. Boulder is it's own nation, unto itself, where the good 'ol boy system is alive and well.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Bingo. A judge, in a legal proceeding, lawfully declared there was no probable cause.

Now, if you don't question LE's decision to attempt to get the records because, in their statement, they are LE and they want them to advance an investigation, how can you question the judge's decision to not allow LE to obtain them because in the judge's eyes it wouldn't have advanced the investigation?

Personally, I find that highly odd. In a murder case I imagine the phone records are always checked. It's a capital crime, after all. The whole house itself became a crime scene.

The Ramsey house could have gotten a hang up call from "Child Murder Inc." on the 25th and who'd be the wiser?
What happened...did someone official examine the phone records and determine LE had no business looking through them? Who made that call?

How far did the Ramsey influence tend to stretch? We know that their got their unreasonable demands concerning being interviewed granted while average people would be laughed at to their faces...so, hmm.

 

[JBean]

So the standards that your kids adhere to are stricter than those the R's are held to.

LE wanted the records but the R's were not ordered to turn them over. "Probable cause" in Boulder isn't the same as "probable cause" in the rest of the US. Boulder is it's own nation, unto itself, where the good 'ol boy system is alive and well.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence.ETA: But I suppose I would mean that my kids would choose one of their reasonable options which in this case, it would be consent to a search.
As for the rest:
Just because LE wants them does not mean there is reason for them to get them.
If what you say is true and the system is that much different in Boulder and I should expect to be treated differently, then I would absolutely refuse to hand over any of my records if i were being targeted. If they do not operate under the rules of law, I can only imagine what they might do with my information. That is scary.

 

[s_finch]

Personally, I find that highly odd. In a murder case I imagine the phone records are always checked. It's a capital crime, after all. The whole house itself became a crime scene.

The Ramsey house could have gotten a hang up call from "Child Murder Inc." on the 25th and who'd be the wiser?
What happened...did someone official examine the phone records and determine LE had no business looking through them? Who made that call?

How far did the Ramsey influence tend to stretch? We know that their got their unreasonable demands concerning being interviewed granted while average people would be laughed at to their faces...so, hmm.

JR only hired some of the biggest defense attorneys in the US. He bought the big guns---look at the website below.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

 

[s_finch]

Well I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence.ETA: But I suppose I would mean that my kids would choose one of their reasonable options which in this case, it would be consent to a search.
As for the rest:
Just because LE wants them does not mean there is reason for them to get them.
If what you say is true and the system is that much different in Boulder and I should expect to be treated differently, then I would absolutely refuse to hand over any of my records if i were being targeted. If they do not operate under the rules of law, I can only imagine what they might do with my information. That is scary.

What I meant is that your kids would HELP the LE and that is good.

Phone records?? If you are innocent, what could be so damaging about phone records? An affair? Mob connections?? Calls to a druggie?? Calls to someone high up in gov. who doesn't want their name in the mix????????????

Someone has written on here that perhaps someone higher up than LE looked at the records and decided they weren't necessary, and that may be possible but LE never got to look at them. Can you imagine being a dedicated detective who is trying to solve a murder investigation only to be denied access over and over to records that are usually available.

 

[JBean]

What I meant is that your kids would HELP the LE and that is good.

Phone records?? If you are innocent, what could be so damaging about phone records? An affair? Mob connections?? Calls to a druggie?? Calls to someone high up in gov. who doesn't want their name in the mix????????????

Someone has written on here that perhaps someone higher up than LE looked at the records and decided they weren't necessary, and that may be possible but LE never got to look at them. Can you imagine being a dedicated detective who is trying to solve a murder investigation only to be denied access over and over to records that are usually available.

okay okay I get it. Don;t have to keep telling me..LOL!!! just teasing you. the triple post ghost is haunting you.

 

[Jolynna]

Phone records?? If you are innocent, what could be so damaging about phone records? An affair? Mob connections?? Calls to a druggie?? Calls to someone high up in gov. who doesn't want their name in the mix????????????

<speculating...>

A call to your lawyer before you dialed 911?

It would not be evidence of guilt, but it would not look good either.

 

[julianne]

:laugh: :laugh:

the triple post ghost is haunting you.

Triple post ghost--that's too funny, JBean!

That's happened to me before, and I lost my internet connection so I couldn't delete the extras for hours, lol...

 

[JBean]

:laugh: :laugh:

Triple post ghost--that's too funny, JBean!

That's happened to me before, and I lost my internet connection so I couldn't delete the extras for hours, lol...

Careful! he'll come after you again! Bwahahahahahaha
best not to feed him.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

JR only hired some of the biggest defense attorneys in the US. He bought the big guns---look at the website below.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/6d/6deg.html

Yep...the big guns.

For completely innocent people...they sure had a lot of conditions when it came to talking to the people who were capable of arresting them. Must be nice to make such demands and be catered to.

 

[Ivy2]

<speculating...>

A call to your lawyer before you dialed 911?

It would not be evidence of guilt, but it would not look good either.

Just for the sake of discussion here....

Would you feel any different about the case if you found out through phone records that things didn't go down that morning quite like the Ramsey's described? What if they had made a call prior to 5:52am to say friend/attorney Mike Bynum, before the 911 call? Don't jump all over me, like I said we are here to discuss so I am throwing out a different scenario.

 

[IrishMist]

Bingo. A judge, in a legal proceeding, lawfully declared there was no probable cause.

Now, if you don't question LE's decision to attempt to get the records because, in their statement, they are LE and they want them to advance an investigation, how can you question the judge's decision to not allow LE to obtain them because in the judge's eyes it wouldn't have advanced the investigation?

?? As far as I know, a judge didn't decide that, and didn't declare anything. BPD asked BDA to subpoena the records, and they refused.

 

[s_finch]

okay okay I get it. Don;t have to keep telling me..LOL!!! just teasing you. the triple post ghost is haunting you.

THanks, I fixed it.

 

[Pedro]

So by your own admission, you would not independently act in a reasonable manner.

No, the fact that cooperating with the police is reasonable does not make exercising my constitutional rights less reasonable.

Both positions are reasonable, just the positions differ not the "reason-ability" of either one.

 

[Pedro]

They are not mutually exclusive. It would also be reasonable to not turn in the records, as it is within one's rights.

It would be reasonable to call my friend..
It would also be reasonable to not call my friend.

Yes, you are right. But "mutually exclusive" dialectic seems to be the simplest way to discern for many.

And it's often wrong.

 

[Pedro]

Pedro said it would have been reasonable for the R's to voluntarily turn over their records. However, Pedro said if he were they, he would not voluntarily turn over the records. Therefore, Pedro would not voluntarily act in a reasonable manner.

1. - Cooperate with the police is reasonable.

2. - Exercise my constitutional rights is reasonable.

3. - I did not exclude one versus the other.

4.- thus you are wrong; both positions are reasonable.

 

[Pedro]

Your logic doesn't hold up, because both options are reasonable. JMHO of course.

You are correct, what s_finch is doing is called "logical fallacy" where they attempt to imply what was not implied nor said to create a false set of premises in a syllogism. Erroneous thinking or childish "gotcha"...

 

[Pedro]

Why would the Ramseys deliberately keep evidence that might lead to finding their daughter's killer from the police?

Because the police thinks they were the killer?

If you had nothing to hide wouldn't you want the police to find the real killer A.S.A.P.

Yes should I would like them to do so. However if they already think I am the killer and they are clearly incompetent, I will exercise my God given rights and don't say or do anything.