!!!!!!!!!! Patsy did it!!!!!!!!

[TexMex]

TexMex:

ST pb page 253
"In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation.

We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries
'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse'
'There was chronic abuse'. . .
'Past violation of the vagina'. . .
'Evidence of both acute injury and chronic sexual abuse.'

In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before. One expert summed it up well when he said the injuries were not consistent with sexual assault, but with a child who was being physically abused."
and:


Where are the handwriting analyses of the 3 supposed experts that have apparently claimed that Karr wrote the note? Or were these people just saying this on talk shows without having DONE any analysis? And just how "expert" are these supposed experts when any expert knows that no valid handwriting analysis can possibly be made from one document that's 20 years old? Hmmm?

I'm waiting on your side by side letter comparison of Karr's handwriting to the ransom note that you claim will show just as many dead ringers as the 60+ ones found in Miller's EXPERT analysis. Any time you're ready...

Calm down PDD.

A "panel of experts" may have seen abuse but apparently her pediatrician, Boulder PD/DA and Grand Jury did not.
Isn't Wecht facing criminal charges :doh:


Many experts do not see ANY possibility af Mrs R writing the note or place her at the low end of the spectrum of possibility of being the author

The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note. (SMF P 254.)" (Carnes 2003:26). "Defendants' experts base their conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey is not the author of the Ransom Note on the "numerous significant dissimilarities" between the individual characteristics of Mrs. Ramsey's handprinting and of that used in the Ransom Note

"Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note."


"Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


"Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.

"Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.


Darnay Hoffman, an attorney for Chris Wolf, who sought to prove that Patsy Ramsey was the note writer, in a fax to Tom Miller, a handwriting expert he had hired : "I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn...He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I.--four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won't give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e., there is little or no basis for match."


"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.

"Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The Ransom Note

 

[rashomon]

"And there's that lower case d."

She wrote them like that, too.

"You want to see something shocking....check out Cherokee exemplar's of Patsy's handwriting on FFJ.

You will be amazed.....Patsy wrote the note."

Cherokee's the best.

"Yes, Patsy does sound like a cold blooded murderer doesn't she? I mean all that bragging about her kids' and husband's accomplishments just makes your blood run cold, doesn't it? And that sick talk about her volunteering to work on a home that will be featured in Better Homes and Gardens. Sounds like such a depraved individual, or does it?"

Well, a while back, a poster named Sarah had a site where you could SEE for yourself how she had a tendency to use certain phrases found in the note frequently. Too bad it's not up anymore.

"How could PR walk free all these years? How could anyone be vague about the possibility she wrote the RN?"

Because, as that moron Pete Hofstrom put it, "So what if she wrote the note? It doesn't prove she killed her kid." And he's right, from a legal standpoint.

"What are the chances that there could be so many similarites to someone's handwriting, and they just happened to be in the house at the time of the murder!!"

That's the question ST asked!

"your own eyeballs don't lie to you."

No, they don't.

"I think that's true. Mrs. R scored a 4.5 on her CBI writing test...a 5 excludes a person. That indicates a low probablity that Mrs. R wrote that ransom note."

I'll get to that!

"I didn't know that. I suppose this is why most of the experts went with "inconclusive"."

That was what they said officially. Off the record was different.

"SuperDave, in case you're reading this post: you seem to have done quite a bit of research re the handwriting camparisons: is it really true that the CBI came to the conclusion 'low probability'? Maybe you could clear this up.
I remember that Chet Ubowski and quite a few others came to the conclusion that in all probability Patsy wrote the ransom note."

Gladly! Sadly, doc has beaten me to it! But to fill in the blanks, the CBI did not rate her "4.5 out of 5." That was cooked up by the two handwriting experts HIRED by the Ramseys! And THEY couldn't give her a clean bill of health!



IOWs, she wrote it, I just can't say so with courtroom certainty.

The rest were of varying strengths. Leonard Speckin said that he couldn't be sure, either, due to the disguised writing, but off the record, he said that the odds of someone breaking into the house and writing with so many similarities was extremely remote. Most of them were like that. What you MUST remember is that it's ALL the other stuff that points to her as the writer. The odds of her being to writer increase dramatically when those factors are taken in.

Let me put it another way: When you eliminate the impossble, whatever remains, however improbable, MUST be the truth.--Sherlock Holmes

"I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury."

We don't know what they saw in that regard.

"However, I agree with the other poster that it would be highly unlikely that a mother could calmly sit down and draw up draft after draft of a ransom note with the knowledge that her daughter was dead and how she had died. She would be totally unglued and unable to put two words together."

If you notice, it starts very shaky, then becomes very personal.

"TEN other experts said they were certain Patsy wrote the note... TEN."

Yep. I notice something: many people have challenged the Ramseys to release a handwriting report that clears her. They have never done it. Don't forget, her's was the only writing that changed after the murder.

"This lame excuse that the CBI gave Patsy a low probability score when Ubowski said that the only reason he didn't conclude 100% that the note was written by Patsy is because of the DISGUISED letters and bleeding ink from the felt tip pen used to write the note is ridiculous. TEN other experts say they are positive Patsy wrote the note."

yep, and all of them make Ubowski look like Mr. Magoo.

Thanks, doc!

"Let's see what the same experts say about Karr's writing..."

Fair enough.

"I have seen TEN experts claim Karr could have written the note."

I only know of three.

"And there is no proof at all of chronic sex abuse of this child. In fact her pediatrician denies it."

You mean the pediatrician who didn't see her since August of '96? Who ADMITS he never performed an internal exam?

Thanks SuperDave, for your detailed approach in answering questions or responding to mere claims and allegations. This immensely helps clearing things up, although avid Ramsey supporters may not like it if their beliefs are confronted with FACTS. Facts which imo just scream that the Ramseys are involved in JonBenet's death.

 

[William N]

For the sake of argument, I will assume that one of the Ramseys killed Jon Benet. Why then, did they bother to write a ransom note at all? After all, JB was lying dead in the basement, and would be found. She was obviously not kidnapped and taken away in spite of the note. It would be a logical inference that some sicko had snuck in and killed her. Writing a note with handwriting that could be checked would only bring suspicion onto the Ramseys.

 

[rashomon]

For the sake of argument, I will assume that one of the Ramseys killed Jon Benet. Why then, did they bother to write a ransom note at all? After all, JB was lying dead in the basement, and would be found. She was obviously not kidnapped and taken away in spite of the note. It would be a logical inference that some sicko had snuck in and killed her. Writing a note with handwriting that could be checked would only bring suspicion onto the Ramseys.

If a child has been found dead in the parents' home with both parents being present in the home, everything will point to the parents being the perps, no matter how the body has been 'handled' for staging purposes. And that is exactly why they wrote the ransom note: to introduce an 'outside' element which should point away from them. It was a desperate attempt of course, in view of the fact that the body was left in the house (it was probably too risky for them to dump it somewhere outside). But the Ramseys had no choice, therefore writing the ransom note was an "any port in a storm" decision on their part.

 

[BBB167893]

"I don't know why such focus is on the handwriting analysis. All I have heard all week from the experts is how unreliable this science is. This is no doubt part of the reason why PR wasn't arrested. If this is all they had, it wasn't enough. If it wasn't enough to convince law enforcement, it's not enough for me. We can't do a comparison of her writing and come to any reliable conclusion at all. It requires training and expertise in the area of handwriting analysis. I think we should rely on the experts' analysis and LE's ultimate conclusion regarding the note."

I'll tell you what I rely on: my own two eyes.

"A "panel of experts" may have seen abuse but apparently her pediatrician, Boulder PD/DA and Grand Jury did not."

We don't know if the Grand Jury even SAW this!

"Many experts do not see ANY possibility af Mrs R writing the note or place her at the low end of the spectrum of possibility of being the author"

They didn't know she could write with both hands! That was important! An analysis of her left-hand writing was done, and it was an almost perfect match. Cherokee has the side-by-side up if you like.

"Why then, did they bother to write a ransom note at all?"

All part of the staging.

"After all, JB was lying dead in the basement, and would be found. She was obviously not kidnapped and taken away in spite of the note. It would be a logical inference that some sicko had snuck in and killed her."

How do you figure? The Justice Dept. says that a parent is OVERWHELMINGLY the perp in cases like this.

"Writing a note with handwriting that could be checked would only bring suspicion onto the Ramseys."

If ever I kill someone and need a cover-up, I'll tell you how clearly MY mind works!

"Thanks SuperDave, for your detailed approach in answering questions or responding to mere claims and allegations."

It's a rotten job, but someone has to do it.

Remember what the Feds said, rashomon? How each piece by itself was weak, but ALL together, they become a solid wall? That's what I'm saying.

 

[narlacat]

Hello PDD


Let's see what the same experts say about Karr's writing...

I have seen TEN experts claim Karr could have written the note.

And there is no proof at all of chronic sex abuse of this child. In fact her pediatrician denies it.


http://www.longmontfyi.com/ramsey/storyDetail03.asp?ID=26

The judge wrote that the ransom note was taken from paper at the Ramseys’ home and written with a pen that belonged to them.

She wrote that both the Ramseys and Wolf agreed the ransom note was not an “ideal specimen” for handwriting analysis because a broad fiber-tip pen was used.

“This type of pen distorts and masks fine detail to an extent not achievable by other types of pens, as for example a ball-point ben,” Carnes wrote.

However, Carnes wrote that the handwriting in the ransom note was consistent throughout the entire writing, contrary to someone trying to hide their handwriting style.

“One of the most common means to disguise one’s handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text,” Carnes wrote.

Investigators consulted with six handwriting experts, four hired by police and two hired by the Ramseys. All six excluded John Ramsey as the author of the note, and none identified Patsy Ramsey as the writer.

“Rather, the experts’ consensus was that she ‘probably did not’ write the ransom note,” Carnes wrote.

On a scale of one to five, with five eliminating someone from suspicion as the author of the ransom note, the experts placed Patsy Ramsey at 4.5 to 4.0, Carnes wrote.

Beuf did not give JBR an internal examination, so his opinion means jack.

And wasn't Carnes the one that was duped?

 

[narlacat]

Hi rashomon

I have seen these comparisons but see no more similarity in her samples than in Karr's. Neither did the Grand Jury.

There is no motive on the part of the Ramsey's to kill their daughter. There is motive for a pedophile intruder to kill her.

The motive is sometimes not apparent until after the crime is solved.

 

[narlacat]

Hello to you too, JDB


There is no evidence that JB didn't enjoy pagents. I agree the parents should have been looked at ---and they were. For ten years. No evidence. IMO the chances a sick pervert did this are much more likely than her doting parents.

Doting parents?
Patsy didn't dote, she pushed.

 

[TexMex]

The motive is sometimes not apparent until after the crime is solved.

Agree cat.

And I do hope that day arrives.

 

[BBB167893]

We all do, Tex.

"And wasn't Carnes the one that was duped?"

Yes! I knew I forgot something. Yes, she was. She saw NONE of the police evidence. Wood gave her those sayings from the experts, and since the opposition didn't challenge them, she had to accept them. Doesn't mean that's what they actually told the police.

 

[narlacat]

Thanks SuperDave, I thought so too.

 

[openminded1]

At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th? Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect? Especially if we are talking about Patsy here. Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think.

 

[BBB167893]

"At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th?"

7.

"Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect?"

Because if they were missed, someone would come looking for them.

"Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think."

That's what make-up is for.

 

[Chrishope]

At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th? Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect? Especially if we are talking about Patsy here. Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think.

The pilot of the private plane would have wondered where they were. He'd have called. They had either to call the pilot and say they weren't going, or call 911.

 

[BBB167893]

Chrishope, you said it better than I!

 

[foxbluff]

If a pedophile killed JBR, why would he bother writing that IMO ridiculous ransom letter?

 

[openminded1]

"At what time was the Ramsey's flight to wherever they were going on the 26th?"

7.

"Why the need to call the police before 6AM- especially if they were going to stage a crime? Wouldn't they want all the time in the world to make things just perfect?"

Because if they were missed, someone would come looking for them.

"Did the police notice that the Ramsey's appeared very very poorly rested, because after spending all day with 2 kids on Xmas then covering up the murder of their daughter all night long would leave them looking very much physically tired I would think."

That's what make-up is for.

7:00 explains alot. Thanks! In 1996, I was in college and could have cared less about this or any other case- unless it was a case of Corona!

 

[stonewall]

If a pedophile killed JBR, why would he bother writing that IMO ridiculous ransom letter?

This is a good point but I honestly don't understand why either an intruder or a Ramsey would write it. It makes NO sense in either way. If PR killed JBR then why would she write a ransom note stating the child was kidnapped when she knew she was dead in the basement and would ultimately be found there?

Further, if an intruder did it then why leave a ransom note if he didn't intend to kidnap her? The only way leaving the ransom note makes sense is if an intruder intended to kidnap her, wrote the note and then, for whatever reason, aborted his plan and killed her there. Maybe the "accident" Karr refers to is that he killed her there. If this is the case, what could have happened to cause him to abort his kidnapping plan?

 

[openminded1]

Further, if an intruder did it then why leave a ransom note if he didn't intend to kidnap her? The only way leaving the ransom note makes sense is if an intruder intended to kidnap her, wrote the note and then, for whatever reason, aborted his plan and killed her there. Maybe the "accident" Karr refers to is that he killed her there. If this is the case, what could have happened to cause him to abort his kidnapping plan?

Or, as I think has been already stated elsewhere, the note was just a way to buy time. If an intruder was in the basement with JBR, it would take the parents a minute to read that long note and have it sink in. Maybe the suitcase by the window wasn't an entry point, but an escape route just in case?

 

[foxbluff]

This is a good point but I honestly don't understand why either an intruder or a Ramsey would write it. It makes NO sense in either way. If PR killed JBR then why would she write a ransom note stating the child was kidnapped when she knew she was dead in the basement and would ultimately be found there?

Further, if an intruder did it then why leave a ransom note if he didn't intend to kidnap her? The only way leaving the ransom note makes sense is if an intruder intended to kidnap her, wrote the note and then, for whatever reason, aborted his plan and killed her there. Maybe the "accident" Karr refers to is that he killed her there. If this is the case, what could have happened to cause him to abort his kidnapping plan?

Like you, I can't come up with any reason why a kidnapper would have left the body in the house. IMO it would be just as easy to leave the house with her dead as alive!

I tend to accept what I'm reading on the boards that says phedophiles don't kidnap for ransom. Their motive isn't money, so why bother with a ransom note?

I think that the Rams came up w/the ransom note to deflect suspicion from themselves. I think that they needed a way to explain why the coroner was going to discover evidence of sexual abuse.