Patsy Ramsey April 1996

[DeeDee249]

My son-in-law's sister was abused by her pediatrician when she was a child. Her mother never questioned why she was asked to leave the examining room whenever she brought her daughter. Yet she was never asked to leave when she brought her son. That generation (MY generation) was raised not to question that type of authority. The abuse lasted for years, despite her daughter telling her mom that the doctor hurt her. It caused her many years of pain emotionally too, and it wasn't until intense therapy, and confronting her mother, that she was able to let go of it and have a happy life. I am sure it is always in the far recesses of her mind, and I hope for her sake it stays there.

It happens, and people (and it is usually women) who say it doesn't are part of the problem and IMO, share the burden of responsibility for why it continues to happen today.

In my own family, abuse wore a clerical collar. Back then, no one would ever accept the word of a child who accused a priest. Today, thankfully, that is not the case.

 

[Agatha_C]

Excellent post DeeDee! Profound and sad....

 

[Maikai]

JR and Patsy were just as you described, BUT are you seriously suggesting that because parents are educated and successful that an accident CANNOT happen?
Or that molestation CANNOT take place? Because I can assure you it can and does, and in successful educated families.

It's the whole sequence of events that night. All this staging to cover up an accident couldn't have been done in a dark house. The Ramseys didn't have the criminal minds to conjur up the garrotting....the brutal assault....the movie line note. There would be no reason to not call 911 if there was an accident in their home. Lou Smit said most crimes are as they seem---he only had experience in one case where there was staging.

I don't believe there was prior molestation---JBR wasn't a shrinking violet--she would have said something. There was no history whatsoever in JR's past with his other two daughters and he was too busy with his business to care about such things. He and Patsy had a good marriage.

 

[Maikai]

Maikai,
Some people do not believe in God, they deny that Jesus was reborn!

So how come the autopsy described JonBenet's internal injuries, itemizing a splinter of wood deposited internally?

Coroner Meyer opined that JonBenet had suffered sexual contact and digital penetration.

Is just that your beliefs differ from that of Coronor Meyer?


.

I wasn't clear on that. She was sexually assaulted the night she was murdered...no doubt about it. I don't believe prior to that night she was sexually assaulted.

 

[Maikai]

My son-in-law's sister was abused by her pediatrician when she was a child. Her mother never questioned why she was asked to leave the examining room whenever she brought her daughter. Yet she was never asked to leave when she brought her son. That generation (MY generation) was raised not to question that type of authority. The abuse lasted for years, despite her daughter telling her mom that the doctor hurt her. It caused her many years of pain emotionally too, and it wasn't until intense therapy, and confronting her mother, that she was able to let go of it and have a happy life. I am sure it is always in the far recesses of her mind, and I hope for her sake it stays there.

It happens, and people (and it is usually women) who say it doesn't are part of the problem and IMO, share the burden of responsibility for why it continues to happen today.

In my own family, abuse wore a clerical collar. Back then, no one would ever accept the word of a child who accused a priest. Today, thankfully, that is not the case.

How awful! I suppose this doctor got away with it--if he did it to one child, he did it to others.

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

I wasn't clear on that. She was sexually assaulted the night she was murdered...no doubt about it. I don't believe prior to that night she was sexually assaulted.

It's got nothing to do with 'belief'. It's an objectively known fact JonBenet suffered chronic abuse. Read the autopsy and the educated opinions of the numerous doctors who have all backed this up.

Her genital region was much larger than a 6 year old girl her age, her hymen was eroded, there was inflammation caused by penetration (perhaps by a finger/similar object).

Did all that stuff just mysteriously happen?

 

[Let_Forever_Be]

It's the whole sequence of events that night. All this staging to cover up an accident couldn't have been done in a dark house. The Ramseys didn't have the criminal minds to conjur up the garrotting....the brutal assault....the movie line note. There would be no reason to not call 911 if there was an accident in their home. Lou Smit said most crimes are as they seem---he only had experience in one case where there was staging.

The Ramseys didn't have the criminal mind to conjure up garrotting? What? Well, someone did the garrotting and since we can rule out the improbable --the mythical intruder-- it means that the garrotting could only have been done by one of the people in the house. And guess what, they were all Ramseys.

It doesn't take a 'criminal mind' to write a ransom note -- especially the one Pasty claimed to find. It's been called the 'war and peace' of ransom notes for good reason -- it's overblown, overdone and contradictory to events what actually happened.

And there was a need to call the police -- they had a dead child in their home. They had to explain that. They were also booked to go on a flight on the 26th December -- they had to do something before people became suspicious of why JonBenet was not around. In many ways the circumstances forced them to call the police. They chose the 'intruders did it' route which to be honest, was the most probable excuse.

I don't believe there was prior molestation---JBR wasn't a shrinking violet--she would have said something. There was no history whatsoever in JR's past with his other two daughters and he was too busy with his business to care about such things. He and Patsy had a good marriage.

You make assumptions. You don't know what JonBenet would say. That's pure speculation. Most abuse victims don't speak out -- shame, confused feelings, guilt etc.

And there doesn't have to be a history of abuse for it to be justified. There has to be a first time for everything. What you're saying is simply incorrect.

Bare in mind that one of John's daughters from a previous marriage died and that his wife Patsy overcame stage 4 cancer. Add in whatever else was stressful in his life -- just bearing testament to life is stressful and this picture you paint of John is suddenly not as you make it appear.

What's a good marriage anyway? Who knows what really went on in that marriage. We don't know the thoughts and feelings of Patsy and John -- we have a contrived pictures of the Ramsey household that em, the Ramseys want us to believe.

 

[dodie20]

It's the whole sequence of events that night. All this staging to cover up an accident couldn't have been done in a dark house. The Ramseys didn't have the criminal minds to conjur up the garrotting....the brutal assault....the movie line note. There would be no reason to not call 911 if there was an accident in their home. Lou Smit said most crimes are as they seem---he only had experience in one case where there was staging.

I don't believe there was prior molestation---JBR wasn't a shrinking violet--she would have said something. There was no history whatsoever in JR's past with his other two daughters and he was too busy with his business to care about such things. He and Patsy had a good marriage.

we don't know what kind of marriage JR and PR had, and a pedophile is Never too busy to care about such things. As far as having criminal minds, I don't think they were experts either. If they were, they would have kept the ransom note, more realistic. From what I see, the staging was done to cover not only what happened that night, but also the prior abuse...and, IMO, that's why there are so many unanswered questions. So, IMO, instead of just being forced to get rid of that night's evidence, somebody was also forced to cover up prior evidence. Which is what, IMO, created the chaos. It seems that investigators might have been thrown by the dual investigation...but IMO, they knew enough to know what was possible. MOO

 

[DeeDee249]

It's the whole sequence of events that night. All this staging to cover up an accident couldn't have been done in a dark house. The Ramseys didn't have the criminal minds to conjur up the garrotting....the brutal assault....the movie line note. There would be no reason to not call 911 if there was an accident in their home. Lou Smit said most crimes are as they seem---he only had experience in one case where there was staging.

I don't believe there was prior molestation---JBR wasn't a shrinking violet--she would have said something. There was no history whatsoever in JR's past with his other two daughters and he was too busy with his business to care about such things. He and Patsy had a good marriage.

Someone caused those prior vaginal injuries. If it wasn't JR it was someone else with close, private access to her.
Molestation and anything else that happened that night can indeed be done in a dark house. That's what the flashlight was for...AND a neighbor reported seeing that "strange moving light" in the R's kitchen window.
Remember that since this was committed by one of the people living in the house, the rooms need not be dark anyway. No one would have been able to see in JB's room or the basement rooms, especially the WC because it had no windows.

 

[Whaleshark]

1. A mistaken belief, esp. one based on unsound argument.
2. A failure in reasoning that renders an argument invalid

It's the whole sequence of events that night. All this staging to cover up an accident couldn't have been done in a dark house. The Ramseys didn't have the criminal minds to conjur up the garrotting....the brutal assault....the movie line note. There would be no reason to not call 911 if there was an accident in their home. Lou Smit said most crimes are as they seem---he only had experience in one case where there was staging.

I don't believe there was prior molestation---JBR wasn't a shrinking violet--she would have said something. There was no history whatsoever in JR's past with his other two daughters and he was too busy with his business to care about such things. He and Patsy had a good marriage.

Again, every statement you made above is your beliefs/disbeliefs and assumptions, what you think a criminal is supposed to be like, what you think the Ramseys were like. All unknowns on your part that shape your belief of what you think happened - fallacies.

 

[Agatha_C]

LMAO!!!!!!!

In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is usually an improper argumentation in reasoning often resulting in a misconception or presumption. Literally, a fallacy is "an error in reasoning that renders an argument logically invalid".[1] By accident or design, fallacies may exploit emotional triggers in the listener or participant (appeal to emotion), or take advantage of social relationships between people (e.g. argument from authority). Fallacious arguments are often structured using rhetorical patterns that obscure any logical argument.

Though an argument is not "logically valid", it is not necessarily the case that the conclusion is incorrect. It simply means that the conclusion cannot be arrived at using that argument.

Though often used unintentionally, fallacies can be used purposefully to win arguments regardless of the merits. Among such devices, discussed in more detail below, are: "ignoring the question" to divert argument to unrelated issues using a red herring, making the argument personal (argumentum ad hominem) and discrediting the opposition's character, "begging the question" (petitio principi), the use of the non-sequitur, false cause and effect (post hoc ergo propter hoc), bandwagoning (everyone says so), the "false dilemma" or "either-or fallacy" in which the situation is oversimplified, "card-stacking" or selective use of facts, and "false analogy". Another favorite device is the "false generalization", an abstraction of the argument that shifts discussion to platitudes where the facts of the matter are lost. There are many, many more tricks to divert attention from careful exploration of a subject.[2]

Fallacies can generally be classified as informal (premises fail to support the proposed conclusion, but the argument is structured properly) or formal (logical structure is flawed).

 

[BBB167893]

The death of JonBenet was in all likelihood an accident. So I doubt anyone was thinking about killing her. And I doubt anyone would mention that in a magazine if they felt that way.

Agreed.

I bolded a part of what you said. How does a potential killer sound anyway?

You beat me to it, LFB. I'd like to know just what a person who would kill their child and cover it up WOULD sound like! :banghead:

I think it helps to recall that line from Shakespeare: "one may smile and smile and be a villain still."

I think the interviews/transcripts etc that exist from Patsy after Jonbenet's death are a lot more telling imo.

I hear you.

 

[BBB167893]

Not ulike the "entrepreneurship" article written about John Ramsey prior to the murder, both articles show normal people with unremarkable pasts when it comes to dysfunction or mental illness in their past and people who were successful in their lives.

You mean like Chris Benoit?

No way there would be an "accident" and dramatic coverup. No one changes that quickly, or could murder a child in the method that was used. That was the work of a monster.

Those assertions are just as ridiculous now as they were 15 years ago when I was the one making them!

 

[BBB167893]

I believe that was the interview with the police when they brought up Burke and/or John as the perps. She should have hauled off and knocked him off the chair. Her comment under the circumstances was pretty mild. The police were purposely trying to provoke her so they could put more crap out in the media to use against her.

Ah, yes. I never get tired of hearing about the bog, bad police.

Maikai, if my YAWN got any bigger, it would need a hurricane name!

 

[BBB167893]

John was a successful business man and Patsy a cancer survivor. But how does this correlate to 'child murder and cover-up?' and more importantly, preclude them from being responsible for the crime?

It DOESN'T, LFB. That's the whole point. The problem is that a lot of people--and Maikai seems to be among them--can't stomach the idea that such spectacular people could do such an awful thing for such petty reasons, because the implications are too horrifying to consider.

I think it's wrong to say that a certain impression a person makes in an interview (where they are on their best behaviour) precludes them from doing anything bad.

I'd go further than that, LFB. I think it's DANGEROUS to say that.

I think certain and specific circumstances can make people do things that are hard to imagine.

My point precisely.

On the one hand you are saying "no-one could do such and such" yet the facts tell us that someone was doing heinous acts to little JonBenet -- namely, she was being molested at the time of her death and before it. Her genital injuries prove this. So, I think the Ramsey household wasn't as 'perfect' as perhaps some would like to make out.

Well said.

 

[BBB167893]

Why take a chance putting her on TV when she was obviously unstable? Did she see the world as her stage? Was the murder of her daughter her vehicle to stardom?

I've wondered that sometimes. The mega-funeral doesn't help.

 

[BBB167893]

dammit do we have to go through this again... I just need to link to my other post in which numerous high-society pillars of the community, wealthy people, doctors, etc. are guilty of egregious child abuse, and the community didn't want to believe it because of the 'type' of people they were.

honestly.

why must we rehash the same fallacy arguments over and over?

Here's a perfect one -

Doctors abused adopted children - Middle-class doctors were left free to abuse adopted children in a "reign of terror" because social workers were intimidated by their professional status, a review has found:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8652020/Doctors-abused-adopted-children.html

"Some professionals in the case were swayed by ''perceptions and assumptions'' about the couple's social class, professional status and high academic qualifications, the review concluded."

...there's many more. this is a waste of time.

You're starting to think like me, Whaleshark!

 

[BBB167893]

It's the whole sequence of events that night. All this staging to cover up an accident couldn't have been done in a dark house.

Nonsense.

The Ramseys didn't have the criminal minds to conjur up the garrotting....the brutal assault....the movie line note.

That's what the LE experts said about the killer, too! Or didn't you know that?

There would be no reason to not call 911 if there was an accident in their home.

Even if you don't believe that JB had been subjected to prior sexual abuse (and I DO), I can think of a reason: selfishness. They wouldn't be the first.

Lou Smit said most crimes are as they seem---he only had experience in one case where there was staging.

Exactly--he didn't know what to look for. Ironically, he was right: this case SEEMS like an amateur staging to cover someone's *advertiser censored**.

I don't believe there was prior molestation---JBR wasn't a shrinking violet--she would have said something.

There are SO many ways I could rip that assertion apart, I'm getting a headache just trying to list 'em all.

There was no history whatsoever in JR's past with his other two daughters

SO WHAT?! I've spent a lot of time on that subject. I'd hate to think I wasted it.

 

[BBB167893]

The Ramseys didn't have the criminal mind to conjure up garrotting? What? Well, someone did the garrotting and since we can rule out the improbable --the mythical intruder-- it means that the garrotting could only have been done by one of the people in the house. And guess what, they were all Ramseys.

It doesn't take a 'criminal mind' to write a ransom note -- especially the one Pasty claimed to find. It's been called the 'war and peace' of ransom notes for good reason -- it's overblown, overdone and contradictory to events what actually happened.

And there was a need to call the police -- they had a dead child in their home. They had to explain that. They were also booked to go on a flight on the 26th December -- they had to do something before people became suspicious of why JonBenet was not around. In many ways the circumstances forced them to call the police. They chose the 'intruders did it' route which to be honest, was the most probable excuse.

Looks like Whaleshark's not the only one.

You make assumptions. You don't know what JonBenet would say. That's pure speculation. Most abuse victims don't speak out -- shame, confused feelings, guilt etc.

Sometimes pure loyalty. LFB, I have a great idea for a thread that might help out. Just give me a minute.

 

[Maikai]

I think some people are capable of all sorts of things. Never ever will I believe the Ramseys were anything but loving and doting parents. Considering the Boulder environment, and subculture of drugs and transcients, a 20 something lowlife is more in keeping with my profile of the perp. The touch DNA exonerates the Ramseys. It was a full profile in places which can only be associated with the perp.