Patsy Ramsey

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In the ’98 interview we learn that Mr Ramsey had his times wrong.
12 MIKE KANE: Okay. I think it's, and this
13 may put things into perspective. I think you were
14 saying that you were expecting a phone call
15 between ten and 12. The note said between eight
16 and ten.
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, really?

Mr Ramsey used the time – 8:00 – from the ransom note as a reference point to help him remember what time he first went down to the basement. But, he had the time wrong, he remembered it as 10:00.
17 JOHN RAMSEY: But if the note said, eight
18 to ten, which I don't remember.
19 MIKE KANE: Yes, it said that, eight
...

AK

That makes sense to me. But it doesn't change the fact that he was in the basement alone for a period of time before finding the body. That's what I'm getting at. I don't know what he did or if it was even criminal, I was more saying it in relation to Ardnt and not having an eye on him.
 
Assuming they thought it was a real kidnapping, which I think they did, they didn't need many officers at the house. Instead, they'd have to think of a good negotiating strategy and how to locate or keep her alive until they could, or how to hand over traceable money and watch the location of the exchange. I don't believe the house was looked at as a crime scene at that time in terms of something that had to be "secured" - they could swipe the alleged exit for fingerprints/DNA, but not much else if she was actually gone. I don't think they thought the people in the house were in danger.

Of the more recent kidnappings I've heard about, the house and property is sealed very quickly even if the kidnapping was not in the house. Mostly because the family is always the first level of investigation. If it's a family affair, evidence is most likely to be found in the house.
 
Originally Posted by pukasonqo2 View Post
and like we say in spanish: no hay peor ciego que el que no quiere ver

Or translated by Bing as "There is no worse blind than he who does not want to see".


(snip):floorlaugh:

I have a visual for those who don't speak Spanish:


Thanks for the fabulous imagery. This response on the John Cameron book thread is priceless:

"....even though I think the whole thing is mierda de toro...." ~ otg


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - New book by John Cameron that includes a theory on JB
 
The word premeditated is not quite right. It's not like planning a trip. That is too rational. It's more like a collection of compulsive thoughts assembled together with intrusions by the unconscious.

The inspiration in part was found in literature and that is the red flag for psychosis. I refer you to Mark David Chapman and The Catcher In The Rye.

Chapman sat down, pulled his copy of "Catcher in the Rye" from his backpack, and began reading after assassinating John Lennon in December, 1980.

John Hinckley also had a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" in his hotel room when arrested for shooting President Reagan in March, 1981.

If you know anything abut crime you know that there is the element of criminals wanting recognition and attention to the point of wanting to get caught. It's a sliding scale sort of like the "death wish". The scale starts out with a person wanting unconsciousness and it slides all the way to wanting death or seemingly to want it.

In Patsy's case I go with the r n greeting; Listen carefully! And her later plea for the discovery of "who did this". I also think she was fascinated by what was happening to her and to some degree went with it willingly and she seemed to invite the world into her stage play with the 911 call. The actress in a drama wants an audience.

Histrionic Personality Disorder
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

I think John shutting down after Beth's death had a strong influence in PRs reaction. Then, her discovery of the dreaded Stage Four cancer must have been a double whammy of traumatic injuries for their [partnership and] marriage.

JRs net worth was reported at $6.4 million as of May 1, 1996. He was named by the Chamber of Commerce as the "entrepreneur of the Year" in 1996 after his company, Access graphics, grossed a billion dollars. He celebrated with employees at the Boulderado Hotel on December 20, 1996. John Ramsey was on Top of the World". What I found ironic was that his world toppled and turned completely upside down.


An achiever has a failure shadow always.

http://www.upi.com/topic/John_Ramsey/#ixzz34CEHt3j4
 
Chapman sat down, pulled his copy of "Catcher in the Rye" from his backpack, and began reading after assassinating John Lennon in December, 1980.

John Hinckley also had a copy of "Catcher in the Rye" in his hotel room when arrested for shooting President Reagan in March, 1981.



Histrionic Personality Disorder
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

I think John shutting down after Beth's death had a strong influence in PRs reaction. Then, her discovery of the dreaded Stage Four cancer must have been a double whammy of traumatic injuries for their [partnership and] marriage.

JRs net worth was reported at $6.4 million as of May 1, 1996. He was named by the Chamber of Commerce as the "entrepreneur of the Year" in 1996 after his company, Access graphics, grossed a billion dollars. He celebrated with employees at the Boulderado Hotel on December 20, 1996. John Ramsey was on Top of the World".


http://www.upi.com/topic/John_Ramsey/#ixzz34CEHt3j4


I've been aware of Blue Bottle 01's theory for some while, but only recently am I "walking around in it", and your connecting PR's disorders with JR's success and prolonged grief over Beth really got my attention. One of the driving passions of narcissists and histrionics (I see Borderline, too, but not OCD in her Dx) is envy, and I can see how it could wrap itself and fester around JR's grief. PR had Stage 4 ovarian cancer before she was 40. She had chemo, she lost her hair, she lost the last part of her youth and probably a measure of her sex drive. She helped build JR's business, but he got the headlines and the award. Could there have been a deep narcissistic anger because the death of John's daughter rated more tears than her own losses? Did JBR's murder give her a kind of victory by eclipsing Beth's accident and the billion dollars? I'm not saying this happened, just thinking out loud, rearranging possibilities to see whether meaningful pattern emerges.

Assuming any of this applies, it would certainly cast a different light on the pictures of Beth in JR's private bath. I've always found those kind of creepy, but what if he understood, whether consciously or instinctively, that he needed to sequester his grief from his wife? As I recall, he used to be up at night, crying alone in his bathroom, and Patsy, if she heard him, left him to it. She was no housekeeper. I can think of no other place in the house, apart from the basement, where she was least likely to go.

Well, as I said, just thinking....
 
I've been aware of Blue Bottle 01's theory for some while, but only recently am I "walking around in it", and your connecting PR's disorders with JR'ssuccess and prolonged grief over Beth really got my attention. One of the driving passions of narcissists and histrionics (I see Borderline, too, but not OCD in her Dx) is envy, and I can see how it could wrap itself and fester around JR's grief. PR had Stage 4 ovarian cancer before she was 40. She had chemo, she lost her hair, she lost the last part of her youth and probably a measure of her sex drive. She helped build JR's business, but he got the headlines and the award. Could there have been a deep narcissistic anger because the death of John's daughter rated more tears than her own losses? Did JBR's murder give her a kind of victory by eclipsing Beth's accident and the billion dollars? I'm not saying this happened, just thinking out loud, rearranging possibilities to see whether meaningful pattern emerges.

Assuming any of this applies, it would certainly cast a different light on the pictures of Beth in JR's private bath. I've always found those kind of creepy, but what if he understood, whether consciously or instinctively, that he needed to sequester his grief from his wife? As I recall, he used to be up at night, crying alone in his bathroom, and Patsy, if she heard him, left him to it. She was no housekeeper. I can think of no other place in the house, apart from the basement, where she was least likely to go.

Well, as I said, just thinking....

This post is genius Meara, honestly. So much deep, new insight being gleaned. I'm confused as ever now, however I know one thing, a Ramsey did the unspeakable- not some fictitional intruder. Of that I am certain.
 
This post is genius Meara, honestly. So much deep, new insight being gleaned. I'm confused as ever now, however I know one thing, a Ramsey did the unspeakable- not some fictitional intruder. Of that I am certain.

:rose: Frigga, you are most generous (as befits a goddess! : )

I'd hoped to write more, but it has gotten so late. Tomorrow I'll do my best to return and + more details to the experimental picture ..... :eek:fftobed:
 
Thank you. That’s exactly what I said (snipped & bbm):

Sure, but look at how long it took you to say it! :)

Ya know, the FBI seemingly had a lot of opinions and I notice that RDI have no problem citing those opinions when it supports their position. But, the FBI’s opinion in those instance is no better (or, worse) than it is when they say that there had been no prior sexual abuse. So, if you want to dismiss their opinion on prior sexual abuse for the reasons you’ve cited, than you better be prepared to dismiss their opinion on most everything else Ramsey.
...

AK
 
WHO at the FBI?
Names.
Please.
I don’t have names. But, I did provide the quote AND the source for the quote. Here’s another quote, same source:

“Although Eller had pushed the FBI out of the day-to-day investigation on the afternoon Jonbenet’s body had been found , the Bureau’s forensics labs had been analyzing the evidence for the police since January 19, and it’s Child Abductions and Serial Killer Unit (CASKU) was evaluating and profiling the crime scene.” PMPT; p. 365
...

AK
 
I've been aware of Blue Bottle 01's theory for some while, but only recently am I "walking around in it", and your connecting PR's disorders with JR's success and prolonged grief over Beth really got my attention. One of the driving passions of narcissists and histrionics (I see Borderline, too, but not OCD in her Dx) is envy, and I can see how it could wrap itself and fester around JR's grief. PR had Stage 4 ovarian cancer before she was 40. She had chemo, she lost her hair, she lost the last part of her youth and probably a measure of her sex drive. She helped build JR's business, but he got the headlines and the award. Could there have been a deep narcissistic anger because the death of John's daughter rated more tears than her own losses? Did JBR's murder give her a kind of victory by eclipsing Beth's accident and the billion dollars? I'm not saying this happened, just thinking out loud, rearranging possibilities to see whether meaningful pattern emerges.

Assuming any of this applies, it would certainly cast a different light on the pictures of Beth in JR's private bath. I've always found those kind of creepy, but what if he understood, whether consciously or instinctively, that he needed to sequester his grief from his wife? As I recall, he used to be up at night, crying alone in his bathroom, and Patsy, if she heard him, left him to it. She was no housekeeper. I can think of no other place in the house, apart from the basement, where she was least likely to go.

Well, as I said, just thinking....

As usual, great post, Meara!

Appreciate the many insights in this thread. And here’s another ingredient to consider: PR’s Southern upbringing. I’m far from an expert on Southern culture, in spite of reading the literature of William Faulkner, Tennessee Williams, Harper Lee and others, but I do have a sense of some possible Southern behavioral differences. (Once had a business associate from Georgia who was straight out of the school of Southern Belle charm plus seeming innocence coupled with manipulation and high drama. She actually convinced her friends that her soon-to-be “ex” was going to hire a contract killer to take her out. It was strictly her Southern gothic imagination, but she was convincing!) Also, the trait of ‘envy’ can be concealed very well by a charming ‘front’.

When friends of PR spoke about her chameleon-like transitions from friend to cold stranger, when others spoke of NP ability to be both slyly nasty, yet devoted to PR, one can envision how this behavior might play out in relationships. It’s this capacity for “mean” couched in charm which seems to evoke confusion and, on reflection, insinuates inauthenticity. Here’s a wonderful youtube performance by someone from the South who has understood this phenomenon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXy-pSdwFFA&feature=kp

Lastly, one can’t forget the concept of Southern honor and religious fervor, both very visible in PR. These provide a shield, like Harry Potter’s invisible cloak, which hides PR’s shadow self during some of her twisted performances. Who will ever forget her comportment, invoking divine intervention for raising JB from the dead, and rolling around on her, as her dead daughter lay beside the Christmas tree.
All moo.
 
I've been aware of Blue Bottle 01's theory for some while, but only recently am I "walking around in it", and your connecting PR's disorders with JR's success and prolonged grief over Beth really got my attention. One of the driving passions of narcissists and histrionics (I see Borderline, too, but not OCD in her Dx) is envy, and I can see how it could wrap itself and fester around JR's grief. PR had Stage 4 ovarian cancer before she was 40. She had chemo, she lost her hair, she lost the last part of her youth and probably a measure of her sex drive. She helped build JR's business, but he got the headlines and the award. Could there have been a deep narcissistic anger because the death of John's daughter rated more tears than her own losses? Did JBR's murder give her a kind of victory by eclipsing Beth's accident and the billion dollars? I'm not saying this happened, just thinking out loud, rearranging possibilities to see whether meaningful pattern emerges.

Assuming any of this applies, it would certainly cast a different light on the pictures of Beth in JR's private bath. I've always found those kind of creepy, but what if he understood, whether consciously or instinctively, that he needed to sequester his grief from his wife? As I recall, he used to be up at night, crying alone in his bathroom, and Patsy, if she heard him, left him to it. She was no housekeeper. I can think of no other place in the house, apart from the basement, where she was least likely to go.

Well, as I said, just thinking....

You possess fantastic critical thinking skills, Meara, thank you for expressing them. It seems Blue Bottle 01 and I may be the only ones active in the forum who believe the murder was premeditated, or as BB is apt to say, preplanned.

Oh, that Patsy was a clever Fat Cat. She purchased an Essentials blazer very similar to Priscilla's. She left JARs luggage with its incriminating contents under the basement window; Burke's knife is in the WC. She blamed the housekeeper and Santa McReynold's.

As a director of a play might do; Patsy prepares the opening scene of her creation for us:

1) She let's us know that John's business [success] is related to the murder. A copy of the October, 1996, Boulder County Business Report was found near John's desk. It had his picture circled with a red, hand-drawn, heart. The others in the photo were marked X.

Posted by Maikai on Aug-25-01 at 09:09 AM (EST)

"In "Ricochet" the victim the psycho went after had appeared in the paper receiving an award. The psycho was obsessed with revenge, and after he escaped from prison to pursue his victim, they went into his jail cell, and they dumped a box out, and showed up close on the screen, the article with the victim receiving an award. Either no, or an X was on the other people in the picture, and a heart drawn around the victim's head. The markups on the Entrepreneur article are very similar to the article in "Ricochet."


2) She let's us know this is a religious matter. The Holy Bible is bookmarked with a satin ribbon to 118 Psalms and includes this same figure as the ransom demand amount of $118,000 which is a lowly amount considering the value of JBs life and John's net worth.

In Patsy's mind, she may not believe she murdered JonBenét but rather sent her daughter to heaven, to a better place, so she would never know what it's like to lose a child, etc.

3) She let's us know this is about incest. The dictionary page is folded back to point to the word "incest" and dresses her child in oversized panties to point to this fact not away from it.

4) She writes a lengthy ransom note. No matter how stoic, no matter how strong-willed, no matter how heartless a person is, no matter how important the reason is, a kind, loving, devoted mother could not sit down and write a 3 pg RN immediately after their precious daughter's death, accidental or otherwise. There is proof in the pad that there was a practice RN. I think Patsy had the RN inside the pad for a while until it came time to use it by copying it and leaving it on the stairs, then destroying the practice note.


This Fat Cat can fight and doesn't care how empty it sounds!

"I didn't put the bowl there. OK? I didn't put the bowl there," Patsy told Smit.

"But now, I'm telling you they are not somebody else's. I'm telling that they belong to the one of two of you," Haney responded.

"Well, I don't know. I did not put that there. No," Patsy said.

It was Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl — according to police — suggesting that Patsy gave the fruit to her daughter. But if Patsy did give it to her, and was lying about it, the investigators wondered, could she be lying about everything?

"Sometimes, the simplest most obscure little thing could be so significant," Haney said.

It was Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl — according to police — suggesting that Patsy gave the fruit to her daughter. But if Patsy did give it to her, and was lying about it, the investigators wondered, could she be lying about everything?

"Sometimes, the simplest most obscure little thing could be so significant," Haney said.

"Right. I did not feed JonBenet pineapple. OK? So I don't know how it got in her stomach. And where this bowl of pineapple came from. I can't recall putting that there," Patsy said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/searching-the-interrogation-tapes/

I can't recall putting that there," Patsy said.

Her fingerprints are on it! Some people would say Patsy is obviously stonewalling. I would disagree. Patsy is clearly setting her defense against possible murder charges.

From the same source:
What does she think about these fibers? Says Patsy: "When I - after John discovering the body, and she was brought to the living room, when I laid eyes on her, I knelt down and hugged her. But I was, had my whole body on her body. My sweater fibers, or whatever I had on that morning, are going to transfer to her clothing, OK?"
 
As usual, great post, Meara!

Appreciate the many insights in this thread. And here’s another ingredient to consider: PR’s Southern upbringing. I’m far from an expert on Southern culture, in spite of reading the literature of William Faulkner, Tennessee Williams, Harper Lee and others, but I do have a sense of some possible Southern behavioral differences. (Once had a business associate from Georgia who was straight out of the school of Southern Belle charm plus seeming innocence coupled with manipulation and high drama. She actually convinced her friends that her soon-to-be “ex” was going to hire a contract killer to take her out. It was strictly her Southern gothic imagination, but she was convincing!) Also, the trait of ‘envy’ can be concealed very well by a charming ‘front’.

When friends of PR spoke about her chameleon-like transitions from friend to cold stranger, when others spoke of NP ability to be both slyly nasty, yet devoted to PR, one can envision how this behavior might play out in relationships. It’s this capacity for “mean” couched in charm which seems to evoke confusion and, on reflection, insinuates inauthenticity. Here’s a wonderful youtube performance by someone from the South who has understood this phenomenon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXy-pSdwFFA&feature=kp

Lastly, one can’t forget the concept of Southern honor and religious fervor, both very visible in PR. These provide a shield, like Harry Potter’s invisible cloak, which hides PR’s shadow self during some of her twisted performances. Who will ever forget her comportment, invoking divine intervention for raising JB from the dead, and rolling around on her, as her dead daughter lay beside the Christmas tree.
All moo.

Well written thoughts on Patsy's point of view, questfortrue. Thanks for the :giggle: from the spoof on Southern Language as an Art.


"When Yankees want to cut someone, you get out a knife
But down here in Dixie, we do it with nice."

"She was the Queen of Mean. Bless her heart."​

Karen Taylor Good - 'Bless His Heart' - YouTube


Also, along the same lines as the Southern tradition, William Faulkner is revered in the South. We memorize his famous Nobel Prize Acceptance Speech. For those who have not enjoyed the pleasure of hearing the audio version or reading his important speech, may I urge you to do yourself the favor. It reads in part, as follows,

"I believe that man will not merely endure: he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance. The poet's, the writer's, duty is to write about these things. It is his privilege to help man endure by lifting his heart, by reminding him of the courage and honor and hope and pride and compassion and pity and sacrifice which have been the glory of his past. The poet's voice need not merely be the record of man, it can be one of the props, the pillars to help him endure and prevail."

http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/1949/faulkner-speech.html

Isn't that purity and beauty?

Famous People from West Virginia who may have influenced Patsy in her youth:

Pearl S. Buck
Connection: Hillsboro
Work: “The Good Earth,” “The Exile” and “Fighting Angel”

Homer H. Hickam
Connection: Coalwood
Work: “Rocket Boys: A Memoir,” which inspired the movie “October Sky”

Roger Price
Connection: Charelston
Work: He wrote for "The Bob Hope Show" during the 1940s and later for "The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson".

Catherine Marshall
Connection: Lived in Keyser for ten years and graduated from Keyser High School
Work: Her best-selling book “Christy” is about her mother.

Booker T. Washington
Connection: He was born a slave in Virginia and when he was eight years old he moved to Malden, West Virginia with his family.
Work: He has written three books, one of which is his autobiography “Up From Slavery.”

Becky Wilson-Kelly
Connection: St. Albans
Work: She illustrates her own line of Hallmark Greeting Cards, wrote and illustrated “Mother Grumpy's Dog Biscuits,” and illustrated “The Old Woman in a Shoe,” “Playtime,” and “Mad Ann Bailey.”

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/usstates/wvfamous.htm
 
That makes sense to me. But it doesn't change the fact that he was in the basement alone for a period of time before finding the body. That's what I'm getting at. I don't know what he did or if it was even criminal, I was more saying it in relation to Ardnt and not having an eye on him.

It only makes sense to me if he did not really expect a phone call.This was the most important call EVER ,the call that could save your baby's life.IMO you would never,ever get that time wrong,it would be imprinted in your brain......unless you knew there really was no phone call to be expected....IMO
 
You possess fantastic critical thinking skills, Meara, thank you for expressing them. It seems Blue Bottle 01 and I may be the only ones active in the forum who believe the murder was premeditated, or as BB is apt to say, preplanned.

Oh, that Patsy was a clever Fat Cat. She purchased an Essentials blazer very similar to Priscilla's. She left JARs luggage with its incriminating contents under the basement window; Burke's knife is in the WC. She blamed the housekeeper and Santa McReynold's.

As a director of a play might do; Patsy prepares the opening scene of her creation for us:

1) She let's us know that John's business [success] is related to the murder. A copy of the October, 1996, Boulder County Business Report was found near John's desk. It had his picture circled with a red, hand-drawn, heart. The others in the photo were marked X.

Posted by Maikai on Aug-25-01 at 09:09 AM (EST)

"In "Ricochet" the victim the psycho went after had appeared in the paper receiving an award. The psycho was obsessed with revenge, and after he escaped from prison to pursue his victim, they went into his jail cell, and they dumped a box out, and showed up close on the screen, the article with the victim receiving an award. Either no, or an X was on the other people in the picture, and a heart drawn around the victim's head. The markups on the Entrepreneur article are very similar to the article in "Ricochet."


2) She let's us know this is a religious matter. The Holy Bible is bookmarked with a satin ribbon to 118 Psalms and includes this same figure as the ransom demand amount of $118,000 which is a lowly amount considering the value of JBs life and John's net worth.

In Patsy's mind, she may not believe she murdered JonBenét but rather sent her daughter to heaven, to a better place, so she would never know what it's like to lose a child, etc.

3) She let's us know this is about incest. The dictionary page is folded back to point to the word "incest" and dresses her child in oversized panties to point to this fact not away from it.

4) She writes a lengthy ransom note. No matter how stoic, no matter how strong-willed, no matter how heartless a person is, no matter how important the reason is, a kind, loving, devoted mother could not sit down and write a 3 pg RN immediately after their precious daughter's death, accidental or otherwise. There is proof in the pad that there was a practice RN. I think Patsy had the RN inside the pad for a while until it came time to use it by copying it and leaving it on the stairs, then destroying the practice note.


This Fat Cat can fight and doesn't care how empty it sounds!





Her fingerprints are on it! Some people would say Patsy is obviously stonewalling. I would disagree. Patsy is clearly setting her defense against possible murder charges.

From the same source:

I also always believed it was pre planned murder by PR.I also always believed she was sending her baby to heaven and made sure she would be legendary.
 
i have read some of the authors mentioned, but, being from oz i have no idea about the idiosyncrasies associated with being from the south but these post make for interesting reading

the reason why, if the RDI, i found difficult for this crime to be premeditated is that i cannot find a motive. why would PR have planned to kill her, so to speak, hen that lays the golden eggs? JB was just a little girl who could still be moulded to fit into PR's idea of the perfect child.

i could see her covering for BR, JR and herself but why would she planned to kill JB? bear in mind, i know that parents are capable of murdering their children (reading WS does change your mind frame) but what would be a motive for PR to do so?


lupus est homini *advertiser censored*, non *advertiser censored*, non quom qualis sit novit
 
Sure, but look at how long it took you to say it! :)

Ya know, the FBI seemingly had a lot of opinions and I notice that RDI have no problem citing those opinions when it supports their position. But, the FBI’s opinion in those instance is no better (or, worse) than it is when they say that there had been no prior sexual abuse. So, if you want to dismiss their opinion on prior sexual abuse for the reasons you’ve cited, than you better be prepared to dismiss their opinion on most everything else Ramsey.
...

AK

Is it ok then for the IDI's to dismiss the FBI's opinion of "look at the parents?" Or does that not count?

I don’t have names. But, I did provide the quote AND the source for the quote. Here’s another quote, same source:

“Although Eller had pushed the FBI out of the day-to-day investigation on the afternoon Jonbenet’s body had been found , the Bureau’s forensics labs had been analyzing the evidence for the police since January 19, and it’s Child Abductions and Serial Killer Unit (CASKU) was evaluating and profiling the crime scene.” PMPT; p. 365
...

AK

How could the fbi be pushed out???? It wasn't a kidnapping when her body was found, so the fbi had no jurisdiction.
 

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