Patsy Ramsey

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Sorry, but behavioral, family history, etc is indeed evidence. Absolutely and beyond doubt. And, it can have incriminating or exculpatory value. In this case, it is exculpatory.

Lots of wolves in sheep’s clothing, but investigation usually finds them out. The Ramseys were investigated to death and nothing became of it.

RDI could still be true, they could still be psycho killers, but the behavioral/family history does not support this. So, all you can say is that despite the evidence...
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I think that in pretty much all cases, even when death is a certainty, the immediate response is denial so I see no reason to assume, if RDI, that the Ramseys would have believed jbr to be dead.
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AK

Sorry, but I don't think they were as it seems that Patsy's bout with stage 4 ovarian cancer was merely glossed over. It's quite possible she harbored some deep-seated issues over it.
 
Lots of wolves in sheep’s clothing, but investigation usually finds them out. The Ramseys were investigated to death and nothing became of it.

Don't say "to death." Given what happened to Patsy, it makes me uncomfortable.

Moreover, at what point were the Rs subjected to analysis by a psychiatrist? I don't remember that.

RDI could still be true, they could still be psycho killers, but the behavioral/family history does not support this. So, all you can say is that despite the evidence...

Aha! But my argument is NOT that they were psycho killers. It tells me something that you think they'd have to be. No, Anti-K. I don't have to believe that someone is Dr. Mengele to believe they killed someone. Parents kill their children every single day in this country. Like you always say, what's so special about them?

I think that in pretty much all cases, even when death is a certainty, the immediate response is denial so I see no reason to assume, if RDI, that the Ramseys would have believed jbr to be dead.

Make no mistake: I think that was the immediate response. But when they couldn't find a pulse or breathing and saw how limp she was, they came to that conclusion.
 
Your expectation regarding the amount of trace evidence that the killer would have left behind should be based on what is generally found in cases. Do a little investigation and I think you’ll find that it is not unusual for little and to almost no trace evidence to be present, and that that evidence found is often in very small amounts (a partial print, a single hair, a fiber; etc).

That's my point! My expectations ARE based on other cases! I thought that much would be clear by now.
Could as little as 30 minutes have passed between head blow and asphyxiation? Yes, in fact, some experts think the head blow could have come after the asphyxiation (wecht, iirc and ?? doberson? I forget), although I think they probably meant during. I have seen a 20 minute estimate somewhere.

Sure, there are longer times given by some, but really we don’t know. There isn’t a consensus on this.

It's 80-20% my way, and that's being generous.

Not that it matters. Once she was hit, why not just get the hell out?
 
That's my point! My expectations ARE based on other cases! I thought that much would be clear by now.


It's 80-20% my way, and that's being generous.

Not that it matters. Once she was hit, why not just get the hell out?

Exactly Dave. I guess they couldn't leave because they neglected to bring an entry/exit point :p
 
I think, in this case, if IDI, we are talking about someone who was forensically aware and who took steps to minimize his forensic footprint. This, of course, should have some impact on our expectations. In such a case, we could expect to find very little; next to nothing.
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AK

You have said many times that the 3 page ransom note wouldn't have come from the Ramseys because every word they wrote was one more piece of evidence against them. Would not this same line of thinking apply to your supposed intruder? If he was so "forensically aware", why the long note? In fact, I'll argue the need for any note whatsoever if she was taken by an intruder. Why not just call early the next morning and say "we have your daughter"? The note is simply an unnecessary bit of incriminating evidence, redundant by the fact that the supposed kidnappers would need to call the next morning anyway.
 
Don't say "to death." Given what happened to Patsy, it makes me uncomfortable.

Moreover, at what point were the Rs subjected to analysis by a psychiatrist? I don't remember that.



Aha! But my argument is NOT that they were psycho killers. It tells me something that you think they'd have to be. No, Anti-K. I don't have to believe that someone is Dr. Mengele to believe they killed someone. Parents kill their children every single day in this country. Like you always say, what's so special about them?



Make no mistake: I think that was the immediate response. But when they couldn't find a pulse or breathing and saw how limp she was, they came to that conclusion.

I’m not here to comfort you.

Who cares if they were subjected to analysis by a psychiatrist if you deny that behavioral evidence is, uh, evidence? And, how often do you think this sort of thing happens during an investigation?

Sorry, but the Ramseys were endlessly investigated by investigators and media and what was discovered is that they were loving and doting parents. Don’t you like the evidence? Do you think we should ignore it just because it doesn’t suit you? Are you going to pull one of those “if only they looked deeper” cards? Cuz, I’m pretty sure that went as deep as they can go.

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I don’t think they’d have to be psycho killers. I was borrowing the expression from your buddy Kane.
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Yes, well. I think you’re just making this up, that after they couldn’t find a pulse, breathing etc, they assumed she was dead. In pretty much all cases, even when death is a certainty, the immediate response is denial. People call for help.
...

AK
 
That's my point! My expectations ARE based on other cases! I thought that much would be clear by now.


It's 80-20% my way, and that's being generous.

Not that it matters. Once she was hit, why not just get the hell out?

Clear as mud. What other cases? How much forensic evidence did Westerfield leave behind in the Van Dam home? Are you actually going to tell me that in all cases, hairs, fibers and DNA are always found and that they are always found in large amounts? Really?
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I’m not scoring, and do to so would be to miss the point: I am giving a minimum time required. If the minimum time given by an expert is 20 minutes, then that fits the criteria. If the blow came after/during as a cpl experts have suggested, then that fits the criteria. What is the criteria? The minimum time required. Within this context, saying that 80 % of the experts agree with you has as much relevance to this as saying, “looks like rain.”
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AK
 
You have said many times that the 3 page ransom note wouldn't have come from the Ramseys because every word they wrote was one more piece of evidence against them. Would not this same line of thinking apply to your supposed intruder? If he was so "forensically aware", why the long note? In fact, I'll argue the need for any note whatsoever if she was taken by an intruder. Why not just call early the next morning and say "we have your daughter"? The note is simply an unnecessary bit of incriminating evidence, redundant by the fact that the supposed kidnappers would need to call the next morning anyway.

No, Andreww, I’ve never said that I’ve never said that “the 3 page ransom note wouldn't have come from the Ramseys because every word they wrote was one more piece of evidence against them.” You are in first part exaggerating and in second part misunderstanding.

I am saying that proving the police with 2 ½ pages of self-incriminating evidence contradicts the intent to point away from themselves (and, the intent to eliminate evidence that can be traced back to them as demonstrated by disposing of items).

But, I understand your point and I recently discussed this in a post to Detective Pinkie. From that post: Usually the only people who are at ease with using their own handwriting in such situations are those who do not believe that they will ever be looked at. BTK, or the Zodiac for example. Do a google image search using “extortion” and “handwriting,” and you’ll see what I mean.

As to why the note, etc? We don’t know, but several possibilities have been offered time and time again. Have you bothered to read any of them? Did you follow the link I gave you when you asked similar questions on the “something that has been bugging me” thread?
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AK
 
You all know what? IDI, RDI, we all want justice for JBR. She was just a little girl gone too soon. If someone was guilty of making her a perverts dream, it was Patsy. JMHO and I'm entitled to have an opinion. I understand Patsy having the cancer wanted to have all the JBR time and titles/victories she could, but anyway let's not forget this little innocent girl was murdered in a brutal way. She deserves justice. JMHO as usual. We should all remember we are all aiming to the same goal, which is justice for JBR, MOO
 
I’m not here to comfort you.

Who cares if they were subjected to analysis by a psychiatrist if you deny that behavioral evidence is, uh, evidence? And, how often do you think this sort of thing happens during an investigation?

Sorry, but the Ramseys were endlessly investigated by investigators and media and what was discovered is that they were loving and doting parents. Don’t you like the evidence? Do you think we should ignore it just because it doesn’t suit you? Are you going to pull one of those “if only they looked deeper” cards? Cuz, I’m pretty sure that went as deep as they can go.

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I don’t think they’d have to be psycho killers. I was borrowing the expression from your buddy Kane.
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Yes, well. I think you’re just making this up, that after they couldn’t find a pulse, breathing etc, they assumed she was dead. In pretty much all cases, even when death is a certainty, the immediate response is denial. People call for help.
...

AK

I think they could have gone deeper, but chose not to.
 
Clear as mud. What other cases? How much forensic evidence did Westerfield leave behind in the Van Dam home? Are you actually going to tell me that in all cases, hairs, fibers and DNA are always found and that they are always found in large amounts? Really?
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I’m not scoring, and do to so would be to miss the point: I am giving a minimum time required. If the minimum time given by an expert is 20 minutes, then that fits the criteria. If the blow came after/during as a cpl experts have suggested, then that fits the criteria. What is the criteria? The minimum time required. Within this context, saying that 80 % of the experts agree with you has as much relevance to this as saying, “looks like rain.”
...

AK

You are still missing the point. Why would an intruder wait even 20 minutes? The fact that that time is probably greater really makes no difference. If it was an intruder, they would have either hit her again to make sure she was dead or would have simply left. 20 minutes or 20 hours does not change that point.
 
You are still missing the point. Why would an intruder wait even 20 minutes? The fact that that time is probably greater really makes no difference. If it was an intruder, they would have either hit her again to make sure she was dead or would have simply left. 20 minutes or 20 hours does not change that point.


I’m providing a minimum time required for all the acts committed – head blow, asphyxiation, sexual assault, moving body, tying knots and so on, and I don’t think I said anything about IDI or RDI.
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AK
 
Really? Why do you think BPD chose not to do a thorough investigation?
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AK

The possibility that Patsy could harbor deep-seated hatred against loved ones would mean that they, too, would be capable of the same against their loved ones.
 
Really? Why do you think BPD chose not to do a thorough investigation?
...

AK

My $.02: INEPTITUDE, which, according to Merriam and Webster means "lack of skill or ability".

Enough reasons revealed over the years why skill or ability would have been lacking.
 
I’m providing a minimum time required for all the acts committed – head blow, asphyxiation, sexual assault, moving body, tying knots and so on, and I don’t think I said anything about IDI or RDI.
...

AK

You didn't say anything about RDI/IDI, I did. And your explanation of
Even 20 minutes makes no sense in an IDI scenario because there would be no need for knots, tape, ligatures and body movement. They would have left her where she fell, possibly hit her again to insure she was dead and be out of there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
My $.02: INEPTITUDE, which, according to Merriam and Webster means "lack of skill or ability".

Enough reasons revealed over the years why skill or ability would have been lacking.

I agree that there was a certain degree of ineptitude Mama, but we also have to take in to account other factors. Alex Hunter was overly protective of the Ramsey's and probably would have not approved of any invasive checking of the Ramsey's background. Also, every member of the Ramsey's extended family was lawyered up by our pal John. This was done for a reason my friends, and it wasn't to protect those individual's. Families have family secrets and it is very rare for outsiders to be privy to them. Once John had his entire family under control the odds of digging up dirt about hi immediate family were just about zero.

We can blame inexperienced cops all we want but this case has many examples where those cops were frustrated by their superiors and their suspects legal team.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You didn't say anything about RDI/IDI, I did. And your explanation of
Even 20 minutes makes no sense in an IDI scenario because there would be no need for knots, tape, ligatures and body movement. They would have left her where she fell, possibly hit her again to insure she was dead and be out of there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, well, if an intruder intended to do the head blow, to asphyxiate, to sexually assault, to hide the body in the house, to tie knots and so on, then I guess your seemingly baseless claim would be wrong.
...

AK
 
You have said many times that the 3 page ransom note wouldn't have come from the Ramseys because every word they wrote was one more piece of evidence against them. Would not this same line of thinking apply to your supposed intruder? If he was so "forensically aware", why the long note? In fact, I'll argue the need for any note whatsoever if she was taken by an intruder. Why not just call early the next morning and say "we have your daughter"? The note is simply an unnecessary bit of incriminating evidence, redundant by the fact that the supposed kidnappers would need to call the next morning anyway.

andreww,
BBM: Absolutely 100%, something I've mentioned many times before. I rarely consider the ransom note since I regard it as staged forensic evidence.

Why does the RN point to the R's, simply because they assumed they had no other option, i.e. they could not phone themselves to announce an abduction at say 2:00 AM. So the RN was part of a calculated plan, e.g. no fingerprints on the RN, or on the flashlight, how so?

The R's staged a crime-scene in the basement, hoping to mess up enough of the evidence, so to avoid immediate arrest?

The R's plan largely succeeded once BR was relocated out of the house. The R's game plan appeared to be: hide all the forensic evidence in the basement including the wine-cellar, hope that nothing was found and fly interstate out of Colorado ASAP!

Parts of the plan worked, others did not, so JR improvised and found JonBenet, something he could have done prior to BR being relocated.

So the R's were forensically aware where it mattered, they likely knew written text is ambiguous as direct evidence, that fiber evidence was similarly not conclusive, since they lived in the same house, yet IDI usually fail to mention, as Kolar has, how come a Foreign Faction enters a house kidnaps, sexually assaults, asphyxiates and applies blunt force to a childs skull without leaving any forensic evidence at any of the evidential locations, separated by time and space?

No abductor is going to sit in the abductee's house and draft copies of a RN, even semi-illiterate abductors do not do this, drafting is the work of a professional attempting to get it right by varying the tone and phrasing.

No abductor is going to waste time sitting around to see if the abductee is really dead, that whack on the head never worked, Oh I better use my garrote technique just to make sure. Then for some reason the abductor thinks: I took all these risks, entering the house, removing JonBenet from her bed, assaulting her, then killing her, you know what I'll just leave her in the wine-cellar, but I better clean her up, redress her in her day clothes plus some clean size-12's and longjonhns first.

No way, the R's were covering up for another family member. More than likely the one not indicted by the GJ?

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andreww,
BBM: Absolutely 100%, something I've mentioned many times before. I rarely consider the ransom note since I regard it as staged forensic evidence.

Why does the RN point to the R's, simply because they assumed they had no other option, i.e. they could not phone themselves to announce an abduction at say 2:00 AM. So the RN was part of a calculated plan, e.g. no fingerprints on the RN, or on the flashlight, how so?

The R's staged a crime-scene in the basement, hoping to mess up enough of the evidence, so to avoid immediate arrest?

The R's plan largely succeeded once BR was relocated out of the house. The R's game plan appeared to be: hide all the forensic evidence in the basement including the wine-cellar, hope that nothing was found and fly interstate out of Colorado ASAP!

Parts of the plan worked, others did not, so JR improvised and found JonBenet, something he could have done prior to BR being relocated.

So the R's were forensically aware where it mattered, they likely knew written text is ambiguous as direct evidence, that fiber evidence was similarly not conclusive, since they lived in the same house, yet IDI usually fail to mention, as Kolar has, how come a Foreign Faction enters a house kidnaps, sexually assaults, asphyxiates and applies blunt force to a childs skull without leaving any forensic evidence at any of the evidential locations, separated by time and space?

No abductor is going to sit in the abductee's house and draft copies of a RN, even semi-illiterate abductors do not do this, drafting is the work of a professional attempting to get it right by varying the tone and phrasing.

No abductor is going to waste time sitting around to see if the abductee is really dead, that whack on the head never worked, Oh I better use my garrote technique just to make sure. Then for some reason the abductor thinks: I took all these risks, entering the house, removing JonBenet from her bed, assaulting her, then killing her, you know what I'll just leave her in the wine-cellar, but I better clean her up, redress her in her day clothes plus some clean size-12's and longjonhns first.

No way, the R's were covering up for another family member. More than likely the one not indicted by the GJ?

.

Good post UKGuy. Much to think about in what you say, and your intentional irony/sarcasm helps make the idea(s) clearer... you reminded me of something that has been on my mind lately when you said "Parts of the plan worked, others did not" - so yes, they had to improvise at various points in time (probably from the 911 call and all that happened after that)

So the current Question in my head right now is - do we have a good handle on specifically WHICH AREAS of the house could have been intentionally "contaminated" by the arrival of friends called after 911 call? We know from testimony that JF parked in the alleyway, looked in a doorway/window and then ran around to the front of the house. We are told that later "victim advocates" dashed about cleaning up, esp. fingerprint dust debris" and prepared some food for the gathered-party. We are told that PR collapsed in the "sunroom" crying unconsolably, even vomiting at times. And of course we know about the crime-scene contamination at the wine cellar before and when the body was found. Of all this "contamination of crime scene" if it was orchestrated, I just wonder which areas of the house were most contaminated by the "guests" - was it the kitchen? was it the sunroom? was it the hallway(s) between? was it near the foyer? (IS THE SOLARIUM on floor plan the same thing as the SUNROOM where PR spent her agonizing moments that morning? Where was the phone located where Det Arndt and JR waiting for the call from "kidnapper" - just questions Im asking. Because I have a feeling there would have been some overt attempts to corral guests and LEO to specific areas where "contamination: was PLANNED or at least hoped-for. JMO
 

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