phone records

[otg]

I agree with the quoted texts RANCH posted in Post #28. If you read some of the search warrants issued in this case, you can see where the LEO requesting the warrant states their affidavit requesting a judge to issue it. It is the responsibility of the judge to decide whether or not to approve, sign, and issue it.

However... We all know that a detective doesn't simply act on his own. He has a superior officer he reports to. The detective won't go to a judge on his own without approval from his superior officer. The Detective Sergeant was Larry Mason, and the Police Commander was John Eller. It's well documented that Eller had stated early on that the Ramseys were to be treated like victims. He also didn't want to upset the relationship between the BPD and the DA's office. So the result was many things that could have, should have, been done, were not.

The BPD, the DA, and the ME all were not used to handling a crime of this nature. (For that matter, name any that would be.) Even after the ME had been called out to do the preliminary examination of the body, he was told he couldn't enter the premises until they had secured a search warrant, which according to other MEs is pure BS. The result was that he was held up on the outside by BPD after being called out during Christmas Holiday. When he was allowed in, I'm guessing he was PO'd. The result was that he only spent 20 minutes inside the house before he left.

 

[MyBelle]

That's not exactly what he says, there's more to it..

Thank you. Air Touch was in a joint venture with US West in 1996.

Did I mention Trip DeMuth's dad was legal counsel to US West?

 

[RANCH]

That's not exactly what he says, there's more to it..

I found it interesting that when the AirTouch employee said that nobody altered the records, Steve Thomas felt that comment was illogical. How would he know that it was illogical? Was it because he was disappointed when nothing was found in the phone records to confirm his bias perhaps?

JMO.

 

[bettybaby00]

I agree with the quoted texts RANCH posted in Post #28. If you read some of the search warrants issued in this case, you can see where the LEO requesting the warrant states their affidavit requesting a judge to issue it. It is the responsibility of the judge to decide whether or not to approve, sign, and issue it.

However... We all know that a detective doesn't simply act on his own. He has a superior officer he reports to. The detective won't go to a judge on his own without approval from his superior officer. The Detective Sergeant was Larry Mason, and the Police Commander was John Eller. It's well documented that Eller had stated early on that the Ramseys were to be treated like victims. He also didn't want to upset the relationship between the BPD and the DA's office. So the result was many things that could have, should have, been done, were not.

The BPD, the DA, and the ME all were not used to handling a crime of this nature. (For that matter, name any that would be.) Even after the ME had been called out to do the preliminary examination of the body, he was told he couldn't enter the premises until they had secured a search warrant, which according to other MEs is pure BS. The result was that he was held up on the outside by BPD after being called out during Christmas Holiday. When he was allowed in, I'm guessing he was PO'd. The result was that he only spent 20 minutes inside the house before he left.

Thank you!!!! I seemed to be failing at getting my point across!

You've gotta also question why all personal records, phone, banking etc., weren't looked at as part of "clearing the Rs" to begin with. :banghead:

 

[MyBelle]

TOM HANEY: Let me back you up again. We talked about that phone, possible phone lines. Did you folks at that time have any other phones, any cell phones, cellular--

PATSY RAMSEY: John had a cell phone. And I had just gotten a cell phone at Christmas, little teeny one.

TOM HANEY: Was it activated?

PATSY RAMSEY: I think it's activated when you buy it.

TOM HANEY: It's not much of a present if it doesn't work?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, I think it was activated.

TOM HANEY: Probably. Do you recall the phone number?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TOM HANEY: How about John's cell phone, do you recall that number?

PATSY RAMSEY: No.

TOM HANEY: Did he have just the one, was that a personal one?

PATSY RAMSEY: He had had one and he lost it. See, I had gotten him one years ago, and he -- I think he lost and then -- anyway, I had gotten this little teeny Panasonic one at, what's that store -- that music video store near the Boulder. Sound Tracks, one of those, Sound Advice or -- and I had it -- I had it sitting on the window ledge charging and he walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will just take this one. And I think meanwhile, Denise, his secretary had ordered him a new phone.

TOM HANEY: Okay, was that an Access Graphics phone?

PATSY RAMSEY: Access Graphics, yes. I mean there were a couple of phones and they were both relatively new and I don't know what the number was.

TOM HANEY: And where were they normally kept?

PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.

TOM HANEY: His--

PATSY RAMSEY: His was usually charging somewhere, probably in his briefcase or something.

TOM HANEY: Did he have a charger set up somewhere though or--

PATSY RAMSEY: Um, I don't remember.

TOM HANEY: Okay. And between the time that you folks had returned from the Whites on Christmas night, and this call to the Boulder police in the morning, on the 26th, had you made or received any phone calls on any of those lines?

PATSY RAMSEY: Not that I recall, no.

Okay, so Patsy is charging a phone that she bought for herself ("he walked in and found it, I said okay fine, I will just take this one.") She does not put those words in John's mouth. She was, instead, busted! I, Patsy, buy a phone and do not tell you, John, who will not know that there will be a bill for it because I, Patsy,will pay the bill out of the household allowance you give me and thus hide it from you, but you, John, having discovered this phone, know that I will be committed to a contract for at least a year or two, and you therefore know that some of the money you allow to me will be going for this phone, so I will admit that I bought it, or, in other words, "I will just take this one."

Meanwhile, John has his own phones through Access Graphics. ("Access Graphics, yes. I mean there were a couple of phones and they were both relatively new and I don't know what the number was.")

We can infer certain reasonable facts from all this. John had a couple of new-ish cellphones as part of his job with Access. These phones would have been paid for by Lockheed-Martin. His secretary Denise, in her capacity as an employee of Lockheed-Martin, recently got him one of these new ones, which makes sense, because Lockheed-Martin would have wanted John, as a fairly important employee of theirs, to be accessible on-the-go. In 1996, the communication protocols by which cellphones technically worked were not unified across America and Europe, there were several different kinds (GSM, CDMA, etc.), and John traveled often to foreign countries, so he needed Lockheed to pay for a phone that worked domestically, and one that worked overseas. Patsy, separately, bought John a cellphone years before 1996, and at some unspecified time, John lost Patsy's gift to him.

In sum: In December of 1996, John had at least two phones, and Patsy had a new one, a Panasonic.

Edited to add: Of course, this all begs the question of whether warrants were obtained to get the Access Graphics cellphone records. If John made calls on his Access phone on the morning of the 26th, BPD could have asked all day long for the Ramsey records and would find no calls made.


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Thanks. Didn't Thomas say they weren't allowed access to Access Phone records?

 

[Linda7NJ]

Thanks. Didn't Thomas say they weren't allowed access to Access Phone records?

That's the way I remember it.


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[MyBelle]

I found it interesting that when the AirTouch employee said that nobody altered the records, Steve Thomas felt that comment was illogical. How would he know that it was illogical? Was it because he was disappointed when nothing was found in the phone records to confirm his bias perhaps?

JMO.

Because common sense would make it illogical because of the volume of the calls in preceding months.

 

[MyBelle]

That's the way I remember it.


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I think so, too. CEOs don't carry their personal cell phone, they carry the one paid by the company. Back then cell phones were expensive.

 

[RANCH]

I agree with the quoted texts RANCH posted in Post #28. If you read some of the search warrants issued in this case, you can see where the LEO requesting the warrant states their affidavit requesting a judge to issue it. It is the responsibility of the judge to decide whether or not to approve, sign, and issue it.

However... We all know that a detective doesn't simply act on his own. He has a superior officer he reports to. The detective won't go to a judge on his own without approval from his superior officer. The Detective Sergeant was Larry Mason, and the Police Commander was John Eller. It's well documented that Eller had stated early on that the Ramseys were to be treated like victims. He also didn't want to upset the relationship between the BPD and the DA's office. So the result was many things that could have, should have, been done, were not.

The BPD, the DA, and the ME all were not used to handling a crime of this nature. (For that matter, name any that would be.) Even after the ME had been called out to do the preliminary examination of the body, he was told he couldn't enter the premises until they had secured a search warrant, which according to other MEs is pure BS. The result was that he was held up on the outside by BPD after being called out during Christmas Holiday. When he was allowed in, I'm guessing he was PO'd. The result was that he only spent 20 minutes inside the house before he left.

So it wasn't just the DA's office that prevented Steve Thomas from seeing the phone records, it was his superiors at BPD. Sounds like conspiracy to commit obstruction of justice. Why didn't Steve Thomas go to the State Attorney General and expose this at the time it was happening?

 

[RANCH]

Because common sense would make it illogical because of the volume of the calls in preceding months.

Volume of calls? What was the volume of calls in the preceding months?

Edit to add: I looked above and see some minutes used in previous months but not December. Is it because JR lost his phone? Member Jayelles posted about this possibilty back in 2006.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1139459&postcount=2"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - phone records[/ame]

 

[gramcracker]

protocol is for the DA's office to request subpoenas/warrants from judges. it is a system of checks and balances that is intended as protection from improper investigation techniques. in this case the protective intention was abused by a DA who was afraid to mount a case

this procedure is faithfully portrayed in movies and TV shows. one example: LEOs are frustrated by or in conflict with the DA in nearly every episode of Law & Order/SVU

Thomas' Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 3876

As we walked out, DeMuth said that although we had the legal right to take the warrant directly to a judge, "Make sure you tell him it does not have the support of the district attorney's office."

the legal community is tightly woven. judges are not in the habit of approving requests that can, by such as the Ramsey defense team, be seen as an end run around established protocol (even though a legal alternative exists)

it is a moot point because the December cel phone records were poofed out of existence. no warrant from any source would have been of any value; no matter how the warrant was obtained, they could not examine information which had disappeared

 

[otg]

So it wasn't just the DA's office that prevented Steve Thomas from seeing the phone records, it was his superiors at BPD. Sounds like conspiracy to commit obstruction of justice. Why didn't Steve Thomas go to the State Attorney General and expose this at the time it was happening?

That would have the same effect as what he did do (ruin his career in police work). Instead though, as you know, he chose simply to resign and write a published letter explaining why.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Remember that reporter that did manage to get the Ramsey credit card statements, cell phone records, bank statements? He called the companies pretending to be John Ramsey and requested a copy of those statements and bills faxed to him? Or mailed to his address? Iirc he even went to jail for it.




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[RANCH]

protocol is for the DA's office to request subpoenas/warrants from judges. it is a system of checks and balances that is intended as protection from improper investigation techniques. in this case the protective intention was abused by a DA who was afraid to mount a case

this procedure is faithfully portrayed in movies and TV shows. one example: LEOs are frustrated by or in conflict with the DA in nearly every episode of Law & Order/SVU

Thomas' Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation/kindle location 3876


the legal community is tightly woven. judges are not in the habit of approving requests that can, by such as the Ramsey defense team, be seen as an end run around established protocol (even though a legal alternative exists)

it is a moot point because the December cel phone records were poofed out of existence. no warrant from any source would have been of any value; no matter how the warrant was obtained, they could not examine information which had disappeared

How could the Ramsey lawyers (there was no arrest so no defense) have been a factor in LE getting search warrants? I think that using the DA's office as a scapegoat for not getting a search warrant when police departments routinely do it every day is a joke.

I've never watched a single episode of Law & Order. LOL.

The cell phone records were "poof"? The conspiracy would have to be pretty large for that to happen. I don't buy it myself.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Found it.

Police said the couple and their employees claimed to be the people named in the records, and phoned companies to ask for copies of those records. The copies were faxed to a phone number that routed the documents to their Aurora company, Touch Tone Information Acquisition Inc., according to the indictment.
Among the records Colorado Bureau of Investigation agents said they seized in a raid on the company were the cell phone records of John and Patsy Ramsey, the parents of JonBenét; their credit card bills, banking records for Ramsey's former company, Access Graphics, and personal records on his plane trips.
According to the indictment, the Rapps also got crucial information about the police investigation into JonBenét Ramsey's slaying. The 6-year-old girl was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her parents' home in Boulder on Dec. 26, 1996. Nobody has been charged in her death.


http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/2000/21brams.html

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[MyBelle]

How could the Ramsey lawyers (there was no arrest so no defense) have been a factor in LE getting search warrants? I think that using the DA's office as a scapegoat for not getting a search warrant when police departments routinely do it every day is a joke.

I've never watched a single episode of Law & Order. LOL.

The cell phone records were "poof"? The conspiracy would have to be pretty large for that to happen. I don't buy it myself.

The Ramsey attorneys were good pals with DA Alex Hunter. Assistant DA Trip DeMuth later joined that same law firm. It's not a joke when lawyers pull stunts to obstruct justice. How many Governors have been sent to jail in recent years? Too many and some were lawyers.

 

[Linda7NJ]

The Ramsey attorneys were good pals with DA Alex Hunter. Assistant DA Trip DeMuth later joined that same law firm. It's not a joke when lawyers pull stunts to obstruct justice. How many Governors have been sent to jail in recent years? Too many and some were lawyers.

Speaking of governors...

http://books.google.com/books?id=pC...jonbenet+phone+records+steve&output=html_text




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[RANCH]

The Ramsey attorneys were good pals with DA Alex Hunter. Assistant DA Trip DeMuth later joined that same law firm. It's not a joke when lawyers pull stunts to obstruct justice. How many Governors have been sent to jail in recent years? Too many and some were lawyers.

So these "good pals" decided to obstruct justice and the cops at Boulder PD just shrugged their shoulders and said oh well? I'm not buying that at all. MOO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

So these "good pals" decided to obstruct justice and the cops at Boulder PD just shrugged their shoulders and said oh well? I'm not buying that at all. MOO.

The Ramsey's were well connected and got their money's worth out of their team of attorneys. It clearly, IMO was money well spent.


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[RANCH]

That would have the same effect as what he did do (ruin his career in police work). Instead though, as you know, he chose simply to resign and write a published letter explaining why.

So instead of doing the right thing and expose criminal activity by the DA's office and the BPD he instead resigns? That doesn't make much sense to me.