Pictures of JonBenet's bathroom

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JMO8778 said:
It does,but I suspect the rest of the fracture,extending from the hole to almost her nose,came from a long-handled object...the flashlight.IMO,it seems someone was standing in front of JB with it,and hit her intentionally,with intent to kill,whether it was planned in advance or not.
I certainly cannot disagree with that logic. Even if the intent was rage oriented and fairly brief. If you have something like lets say the flashlight in your hand and you take a forceful violet swing at some level there is intent. Be it rational or not. I don't have a dog in the fight whether I feel she was forcefully flung hit and fell or swung at and impact made. Sickening any which way it could have happened.
 
UKGuy said:
There is no evidence of an accident, the same injuries presented in any other case would suggest an intentional homicide.

Its only unsubstantiated theories such as Lou Smit's or Steve Thomas' that offer an accident as the initial cause.


.
I agree with that.
Say you happened upon an animal skull in the woods,with a big hole and fracture in it,just the same as JB's.What would be your first thought? Mine would be, 'someone intentionally wanted this creature to die' ..not, 'opps,guess this was a accident..someone must have accidently slammed this animal into a tree branch or something...' ..it just doesn't make any sense.
 
JMO8778 said:
could be,but then PR fiber's are found too,and it doesn't seem to be from innocent transfer.No matter which one killed her,I suspect both participated in the cover-up,with the staged sexual assault done to cover past abuse.
JMO8778, I definitely agree that both participated in the cover up. In fact, I think JR staged the initial crime scene to fool PR, and then they staged the second scene together.
 
But isn't the head wound on JB's right side? A right handed attack would strike JB on her left side unless the attacker was behind JB.

Some also think JB was grabbed in the neck area first. It would be hard to have a grab and a swing but you could have a grab and a push.
 
Dru said:
Although I know your theory and mine don't exactly coincide, UKGuy, I do think we're kind of on the same page.

When I first got interested in this case I was more or less PDI, and I found the different accident theories plausible.

What changed it for me was the sexual wound inflicted before JBR died.

I could see a parent 'losing it' and going for a child. I could see a parent staging a crime scene to cover up that fact.

But I couldn't see a parent, for no apparent reason, inflicting a sexual wound on the child sometime between the initial assult and death, while the child is still alive!

There are only two motives possible for inflicting that wound at that time. If it had been inflicted after she was dead it might have been staging, but it wasn't.

The first motive is that the killer wants some kind of perverse gratificaton from the act. Notice, he's still injuring a dying child--there's simply no possible way that this wound was inflicted on JBR while she was alive, as it would have been extremely painful and she would have shown signs of struggling against it, signs which are absent from her body. This motive is really only plausible in the 'unknown intruder' theory; a parent, having accidently or purposely given the child a fatal head injury, isn't going to stop for a little 'fun' when there's so much cover-up to arrange.

The second, and more likely motive, is that the killer wants to confuse and contaminate evidence of prior abuse. I tend to believe that this makes it highly likely that the abuser is the killer, but I won't go into that now.

Either way, though, it just doesn't square with most of the accident theories, and neither does the condition of the body as you described it in an earlier post on this thread.

The initial blow might not have been premeditated in the strict legal sense of the term. But I think someone was finding JBR to be an increasing 'problem,' and was actually getting quite worried about someone finding out. Maybe he'd even thought about killing her.

So when the killer found himself provoked by something JBR said or did, and struck her, it wasn't something that hadn't occurred to him before, IMO. Means were at hand, motive had been present for a while, and now there was opportunity. And he took it.

Dru,

Thanks for your points, and agree there does appear to be something of a consensus between us.

PDI is a distinct possibility and for some an emotional certainty given Patsy's subsequent behaviour and statements.

I dont discount a PDI, but from the apparent evidence or inconsistencies that are used to incriminate Patsy, it does not follow that she was the one who killed JonBenet.

Also the sexual assault may come in two parts e.g. immediately prior to her death and as staging afterwards. Bear in mind Coroner Meyer's remarks regarding digital penetration, imo this was a reference to a prior sexual assault. Coroner Meyer need not have made that remark, he could left everyone to assume the paintbrush was the sole cause!

The wine-cellar staging incorporates some of the most important forensic evidence and potentially, for those new to the case, some of the most confusing, which can lead to erroneous conclusions, simply because it is not only bad practise to use fake forensic evidence to generate theories and conclusions regarding peoples guilt or lack of, it is also fallacious.


e.g. Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote so she killed JonBenet and staged a homicide!


So I guess the PDI rationale goes something like this, Patsy is a mother, so she would never intentionally kill her own treasured 6-year old daughter, so it must have been an accident, this is then backed up with references to Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theories or some variant thereof.

Since I have demonstrated that Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory is actually inconsistent with the current forensic evidence, the scaffolding supporting PDI is removed leaving the initial sentiment regarding the maternal instinct.

These two distinct elements are both flawed, but combined together make a strong emotional case for PDI.

While if you simply look, and I emphasise look, since you can view the autopsy photographs of her fractured skull, and read her itemised injuries in the autopsy report, these injuries are not those of an accident, any other case with those injuries would be classified as a homicide.

The initial blow might not have been premeditated in the strict legal sense of the term. But I think someone was finding JBR to be an increasing 'problem,' and was actually getting quite worried about someone finding out. Maybe he'd even thought about killing her.
It may not have been planned but it may have been premeditated, on this aspect I am less certain than that it was no accident.

Not only was it no accident but both parents and a son colluded in the subsequent staging and cover up, why should that be?

Those that have followed the case will recognize there is something missing, but they are not sure what it is, e.g. the staging, the accident theories and the forensic evidence do not match up, why should that be?

Bear in mind the PDI logic, a homicide was staged therefore the cause of death was accidental, also there is evidence of a sexual assault therefore it was staged.

As I have remarked before you dont stage an accidental death with a homicide, maybe you rearrange the crime-scene evidence to suggest a non-intentional accident, but you do not offer yourself up to the prosecuter as a domestic homicide. That is if only one person killed JonBenet all those involved run the risk of guilty homicide verdicts as they blame each other in any ensuing court case, with the procurator alleging you cannot believe any of them, they all conspired to kill JonBenet, and are now blaming each other!

Many homicides are staged as accidents though, as are rage assaults on children within the home, so it may be more helpful to consider JonBenet's death as a homicide with subsequent staging to mask the initial cause of death.

.
 
JMO8778 said:
I agree with that.
Say you happened upon an animal skull in the woods,with a big hole and fracture in it,just the same as JB's.What would be your first thought? Mine would be, 'someone intentionally wanted this creature to die' ..not, 'opps,guess this was a accident..someone must have accidently slammed this animal into a tree branch or something...' ..it just doesn't make any sense.

JMO8778,

..it just doesn't make any sense.

Of course it wont, and combined with the accident theories, its no wonder some people become confused and sit on the fence.


.
 
UKGuy said:
While if you simply look, and I emphasise look, since you can view the autopsy photographs of her fractured skull, and read her itemised injuries in the autopsy report, these injuries are not those of an accident, any other case with those injuries would be classified as a homicide...

.
This is pretty much what changed me from PDI to JRDI.

Not that mothers can't, and don't kill. Not that they can't be just as brutal or violent as fathers.

But because the only theories that really make sense in the PDI focus are the 'accident' theories; it was rage, she didn't mean to do it, maybe she'd been drinking and her judgment was impaired, etc.

There's no plausible motive out there that says, yes, PR did it. She struck JBR with such violent force that it nearly killed her--and then she kept on hitting, strangling, choking, beating, etc.

The state of JBR's body just doesn't square with a single unintentionally strong blow to the head followed by an "Oh, no! What have I done?" remorse reaction.

If PR did do it, she meant to. And I'm sorry, but I don't see a moment's rage, a single incident of lashing out at the child, to be the kind of thing that would carry you through the rest of the intentional brutality JBR was subjected to before her death.

To me the most convincing motive for this crime involves sexual abuse and an attempted cover-up. You can believe BR is responsible, like BlueCrab does; you can believe JR is responsible, as I do, or you can believe PR is responsible, as some proponents of the 'douching' theory do (though strictly speaking this then becomes a theory of child abuse/cover up instead of sexual abuse/cover up). But what all these ideas have in common is the idea that this was not in any way an accident.
 
UKGuy said:
Dru,

Thanks for your points, and agree there does appear to be something of a consensus between us.

PDI is a distinct possibility and for some an emotional certainty given Patsy's subsequent behaviour and statements.

I dont discount a PDI, but from the apparent evidence or inconsistencies that are used to incriminate Patsy, it does not follow that she was the one who killed JonBenet.

Also the sexual assault may come in two parts e.g. immediately prior to her death and as staging afterwards. Bear in mind Coroner Meyer's remarks regarding digital penetration, imo this was a reference to a prior sexual assault. Coroner Meyer need not have made that remark, he could left everyone to assume the paintbrush was the sole cause!

The wine-cellar staging incorporates some of the most important forensic evidence and potentially, for those new to the case, some of the most confusing, which can lead to erroneous conclusions, simply because it is not only bad practise to use fake forensic evidence to generate theories and conclusions regarding peoples guilt or lack of, it is also fallacious.


e.g. Patsy's fibers are embedded into the garrote so she killed JonBenet and staged a homicide!


So I guess the PDI rationale goes something like this, Patsy is a mother, so she would never intentionally kill her own treasured 6-year old daughter, so it must have been an accident, this is then backed up with references to Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theories or some variant thereof.

Since I have demonstrated that Steve Thomas' Toilet Rage theory is actually inconsistent with the current forensic evidence, the scaffolding supporting PDI is removed leaving the initial sentiment regarding the maternal instinct.

These two distinct elements are both flawed, but combined together make a strong emotional case for PDI.

While if you simply look, and I emphasise look, since you can view the autopsy photographs of her fractured skull, and read her itemised injuries in the autopsy report, these injuries are not those of an accident, any other case with those injuries would be classified as a homicide.


It may not have been planned but it may have been premeditated, on this aspect I am less certain than that it was no accident.

Not only was it no accident but both parents and a son colluded in the subsequent staging and cover up, why should that be?

Those that have followed the case will recognize there is something missing, but they are not sure what it is, e.g. the staging, the accident theories and the forensic evidence do not match up, why should that be?

Bear in mind the PDI logic, a homicide was staged therefore the cause of death was accidental, also there is evidence of a sexual assault therefore it was staged.

As I have remarked before you dont stage an accidental death with a homicide, maybe you rearrange the crime-scene evidence to suggest a non-intentional accident, but you do not offer yourself up to the prosecuter as a domestic homicide. That is if only one person killed JonBenet all those involved run the risk of guilty homicide verdicts as they blame each other in any ensuing court case, with the procurator alleging you cannot believe any of them, they all conspired to kill JonBenet, and are now blaming each other!

Many homicides are staged as accidents though, as are rage assaults on children within the home, so it may be more helpful to consider JonBenet's death as a homicide with subsequent staging to mask the initial cause of death.

.[/QUOTE

That all makes sense.
 
rocket said:
I'm currently leaning toward a hair dying/touch-up incident due to the three ponytails. There would be no reason to put a child to bed with hair done up like that and unless it was JBR's hair fashion statement for the evening at the White's, my only guess for the "do" would be, like I said, for a quick hair touch-up.
what if it was rearranged after her death,in an attempt to cover the head wound?

BUT, the problem I have with that scenario is the skull indentation which I believe was caused by the flashlight because we're told the flashlight fits right into the indent. I just can't see a reason for the flashlight to have been in either her bathroom or her bedroom.
it is said she did have one in order to get up at night and not have to deal with the light,which is not run by a switch on the wall.but,I think PR also used one to go and wake her up at night,so she didn't have to turn on the light.

Andif an adult's hand is enough to dole out punishment or control during a hair touch-up, why use a flashlight UNLESS it was indeed meant to do grave harm?
well,she's dead.


I believe her death was accidental. So...perhaps she was pushed in the bathroom and that fall or strike somehow caused her death and then maybe the flashlight was used to make it appear as murder.
but then they'd have a murder to explain,not just an accident.


Another thought that I have had re the flashlight that I haven't seen anyone else post involves the pineapple. I have often wondered if P or J (or even B, perhaps) used the flashlight in what they thought of as a sort of "pre" self defense. Could JBR have been in the kitchen by herself which awoke someone else in the house, and that someone else went to investigate with flashlight in hand and met up with JBR in the dark between the upstairs and the kitchen, was surprised by her presence, and instinctly swung the flashlight?
But..again,in that case..truly an accident..I believe someone would have called 911.
 
Clear something up for me please! Some posters continue to say she had 3 ponytails, but when I read the autopsy report, unless I am completely dyslexic...it says 2?????
 
santos1014 said:
Clear something up for me please! Some posters continue to say she had 3 ponytails, but when I read the autopsy report, unless I am completely dyslexic...it says 2?????

santos1014,

Two asymmetric ponytails, and like her underwear I do not know if it was normal for her to wear her hair to bed this way. Her Xmas day pictures show no pony-tails!


.
 
UKGuy said:
santos1014,

Two asymmetric ponytails, and like her underwear I do not know if it was normal for her to wear her hair to bed this way. Her Xmas day pictures show no pony-tails!


.
It looks like she's wearing what my mom called a "flat ponytail", possibly from the previous evening, in her Christmas morning pics.


-Tea
 
icedtea4me said:
It looks like she's wearing what my mom called a "flat ponytail", possibly from the previous evening, in her Christmas morning pics.


-Tea

icedtea4me,

Flat as in undone for sleeping in, or simply a hair arraingment that mimics a ponytail?

Coroner Meyer records two along with hair-ties etc, these are not evident to me on her xmas-day picture?

.
 
santos1014 said:
Clear something up for me please! Some posters continue to say she had 3 ponytails, but when I read the autopsy report, unless I am completely dyslexic...it says 2?????
I thought she had three ponytails too. I thought that's why some posters believe PR was in the prosess of dyeing JB's hair?

kaykay
 
kaykay said:
I thought she had three ponytails too. I thought that's why some posters believe PR was in the prosess of dyeing JB's hair?

kaykay

kaykay,

Dyeing hair late at night, right after a party, and the night before a flight seems too complex an explanation for me, also there is no evidence to support this view.

Keeping it simple, after being attacked JonBenet would be in a mess, its possible she was held by the hair, as the head blow was delivered, either way, her killer probably thought her head may swell up, so lets add some ponytails to mask any injury?

Most likely applied while she was lying horizontal, thus explaining why they are asymmetric.


.
 
UKGuy said:
kaykay,

Dyeing hair late at night, right after a party, and the night before a flight seems too complex an explanation for me, also there is no evidence to support this view.

Keeping it simple, after being attacked JonBenet would be in a mess, its possible she was held by the hair, as the head blow was delivered, either way, her killer probably thought her head may swell up, so lets add some ponytails to mask any injury?

Most likely applied while she was lying horizontal, thus explaining why they are asymmetric.


.
UKGuy,

I don't think PR was going to dye JB's hair that night either.

I can't see PR putting JB's hair in this style. The hair being styled in that manner would draw attention to JB's dark roots.

I used to remove my daughters ponytails before putting them to bed I wouldn't dream of letting them sleep in them, how uncomfortable that would be.

Myself, I just can't come up with a reason why her hair ended up this way.

I can't see a sexually perverted intruder styling JB's hair. If it was a intruder
why would he/she care if the head injury swelled or could be seen?


If one would add everything that happened that night, I think there would be several people involved to pull this off.

There are people here who are so intelligent it would be interesting for someone to add up the amount of time it would take to commit this crime from start to finish.

kaykay


 
UKGuy said:
icedtea4me,

Flat as in undone for sleeping in, or simply a hair arraingment that mimics a ponytail?
A flat ponytail is made by brushing back the hair on top and gathering some or all of the hair on the side into a ponytail that is usually fastened near the back of the top of the head. The hair on the back of the head is left alone. I think this is how she wore her hair Christmas Eve and fell asleep wearing it that night.

Coroner Meyer records two along with hair-ties etc, these are not evident to me on her xmas-day picture?

.
The only two pics I've seen of her from Christmas day were from that morning, one with her and Patsy and the other with her and Burke. Her hair had to have rebrushed and styled later that day with an elastic hair band and the red, black, and white hair tie, which would have gone along with the outfit she was wearing.


-Tea
 
UKGuy said:
While if you simply look, and I emphasise look, since you can view the autopsy photographs of her fractured skull, and read her itemised injuries in the autopsy report, these injuries are not those of an accident, any other case with those injuries would be classified as a homicide.
You're correct about this. Maybe some of us have been so focused on trying to incorporate an accident scenario into the crime, that we're not realizing her injuries for what they really are--intentional. I'd always assumed the head blow as accidental, followed by the strangulation and sex assault as staging. I now see that the head blow, strangulation, and sex assault could all have been part of a continuous intentional action, with the neck and wrist ligatures applied afterwards as staging, and the ransom note written as staging.
 
Tober said:
You're correct about this. Maybe some of us have been so focused on trying to incorporate an accident scenario into the crime, that we're not realizing her injuries for what they really are--intentional. I'd always assumed the head blow as accidental, followed by the strangulation and sex assault as staging. I now see that the head blow, strangulation, and sex assault could all have been part of a continuous intentional action, with the neck and wrist ligatures applied afterwards as staging, and the ransom note written as staging.

Tober,

Thanks, as Bill might say Its the evidence stupid.

Maybe some of us have been so focused on trying to incorporate an accident scenario into the crime, that we're not realizing her injuries for what they really are--intentional.
I reckon you have nailed it, people really want to believe it was an accident, they may be mothers, Patsy was a mother, they may have daughters, JonBenet was Patsy's daughter, how could a mother particpate in the murder of her own child, surely not, how can a mother identify with that?

I have speculated that JonBenet was held by the neck and sexually assaulted, she tries to break free causing the compressed abrasions, she screams, a physical assault begins, she is punched and slapped about the head, somehow she is pinned down, or subdued enough for her assailant to reach out grab some obect, say a flashlight and bring this crashing down upon her head, the rest is staging and history.

Even if the above is speculation is 100% incorrect, I would maintain that her injuries are not those of an accident victim, but of a homicide victim, and that one or more of the occupants of the Ramsey household are responsable for her death and subsequent cover up?


.
 
UKGuy, what do you think of this? It's from a 1997 CNN article about the Ramsey case:

"Police also confirmed that they sought the insight of former Miss America, Marilyn Van Derbur Atler. Atler admitted publicly in 1991 that she had been sexually abused by her father, and has since become an authority on the issue of incest."
 

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