Plane carrying 72 passengers and 9 crew has crashed in Colombia

[emirates1957]

[/B]
Hi Hat,

Yes very clearly !! The circling is driving me bonkers and I am already bonkers!!!

Don't worry dear Cariis we are all BONKERS TOGETHER .... in search of truth, justice and compassion.

 

[emirates1957]

Ah ha- Greg this helped -- (got all of it !) maybe it was not circling in the traditional sense. Maybe He lost his nav equipment due to fuel starvation on the engine that provides primary electric.

Missing the vectors is electricity ............... they are like specific points an aircraft must go over, and report when they do - so it seems the circling might be about trying, again, to hit vectors.

So the circling might actually translate to "lost" as it relates to the runway - as opposed to circling as if by choice????

Avianca Airlines co-pilot Juan Sebastian Upegui said he was listening to the radio as he watched the jet pass to the side of his plane "going downwards, fast as s---t," according to the recording.
"We even saw the plane lights as it was going down," he said, recalling the crew member's cries: "'We now have total electrical failure! We now have total electrical failure! Coordinates to proceed to the runway!'"

You have to have power to enter the coordinates.

The ironies of it being an Avianca pilot are profound (more later) getting tired!!

Throw in no clear direction from ATC, some weather and ......................

Sky news

A holding pattern will occur at a designated point (reference will be made to their charts "Jeppersons")...holding/circling will be made for various reasons, ATC, weather, traffic. For reasons unknown why at minus 0007 minutes are you calling a 'mayday'. I have been in varied situations, never, ever in my career have we been in a position of fuel shortage. Fuel is constantly being checked and calculated especially in BAD weather where an alternate maybe required. Up thread it was mentioned we need to "get this bird onto concrete" .... this is certainly not they way a professional aviator would convey communication. The word "bird" is normally conveyed in military speak. Again which only makes it worse for loved ones and family knowing their lives were not in the hands of true professionals. My thoughts only.

 

[Jax49]

A holding pattern will occur at a designated point (reference will be made to their charts "Jeppersons")...holding/circling will be made for various reasons, ATC, weather, traffic. For reasons unknown why at minus 0007 minutes are you calling a 'mayday'. I have been in varied situations, never, ever in my career have we been in a position of fuel shortage. Fuel is constantly being checked and calculated especially in BAD weather where an alternate maybe required. Up thread it was mentioned we need to "get this bird onto concrete" .... this is certainly not they way a professional aviator would convey communication. The word "bird" is normally conveyed in military speak. Again which only makes it worse for loved ones and family knowing their lives were not in the hands of true professionals. My thoughts only.

BBM

Were those the crew's words or our friend CARIIS?

 

[CARIIS]

A holding pattern will occur at a designated point (reference will be made to their charts "Jeppersons")...holding/circling will be made for various reasons, ATC, weather, traffic. For reasons unknown why at minus 0007 minutes are you calling a 'mayday'. I have been in varied situations, never, ever in my career have we been in a position of fuel shortage. Fuel is constantly being checked and calculated especially in BAD weather where an alternate maybe required. Up thread it was mentioned we need to "get this bird onto concrete" .... this is certainly not they way a professional aviator would convey communication. The word "bird" is normally conveyed in military speak. Again which only makes it worse for loved ones and family knowing their lives were not in the hands of true professionals. My thoughts only.

Ahhh wrote it poorly - that was me dont want anyone to think the pilots said that!!

If the "range" numbers are actually correct as it relates to segment length almost seems as if that might be criminal??

And it fits with what happened they circled or got lost and go down.


There apparently was not even diversion fuel on board

Some pretty serious stuff here. imo numbing actually -- but hey were coming off Ohio state "reporting" so who knows huh?

There was mention of it being mostly male passengers and that that may have thrown off weight and balance and who knows maybe soccer players luggage is heavier than an typical flyer??

They're not stopping for a refuel becomes more questionable in light of inclement weather ahead.

 

[CARIIS]

A female controller explained another plane that had been diverted with mechanical problems was already approaching the runway and had priority, instructing the pilot to wait seven minutes.([FONT=&quot]Priority had already been given to a plane from airline VivaColombia, which had also reported problems, Mr Upegui said. )[/FONT]

Why did they mention the gender of the flight controller? Noone would ever say the male flight controller?

a four-minute death spiral

later

By then the controller had gauged the seriousness of the situation and told the other plane to abandon its approach to make way for the charter jet. It was too late.

17-year-old aircraft's flight

National Transportation Safety Board was taking part in the investigation because the plane's engines were made by an American manufacturer.

Planes need to have enough extra fuel on board to fly at least 30 to 45 minutes to another airport in the case of an emergency, and rarely fly in a straight line because of turbulence or other reasons.

"If this is confirmed by the investigators it would be very painful because it stems from negligence,"

"'We ran out of fuel. The airplane turned off,'" rescuer Arquimedes Mejia quoted Sanchez as saying as he pulled her from the wreckage

(somewhat interesting the "the airplane turned off" is kinda not the word choice of someone flying all day !!)

pilot may have intentionally dumped fuel in the hopes of reducing the risk of a fireball in a crash, or the aircraft could have suffered a fuel leak or other unexplained reason for losing fuel.

"I don't understand how they could do the flight nonstop with the fuel requirements that the regulations stipulate."


[FONT=&quot]“Many passengers got up from their seats and started yelling,” (kinda wondering if these folks were unbuckled as opposed to getting "up")

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]lights went out in the minute before the plane hit the mountain.[/FONT]
“The plane went out completely and had a sharp decline, followed by a big impact," she told El Colombiano.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chapecoense-plane-crash-colombia-what-happened-pilot-audio-recording-mayday-run-out-of-fuel-engine-a7447666.html



http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hunt-begins-crash-wipes-brazilian-team-43864027




[FONT=&quot]“Many passengers got up from their seats and started yelling,”[/FONT]

 

[CARIIS]

here is the whole exchange in the final minute and a half

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/30/chapecoense-plane-crashed-aircraft-allowed-land-first/


more...

[FONT=&quot]V[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ivaColombia flight FC8170 requested to land at Jose Maria Cordova International airport due to a fault in the cabin

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]After the charter plane had fallen to 9,000 feet, Mr Upegui describes how the Quiroga, who lost his own father to a plane crash when he was just a baby, was begging for help.

Avianca co-pilot said the air traffic controller’s voice broke

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/30/chapecoense-plane-crashed-aircraft-allowed-land-first/[/FONT]

​

[/FONT]

 

[gregjrichards]

"A leading aviation lawyer has warned that the charter airline which operated the plane which crashed killing nearly every member of a Brazilian first division football team may not have enough insurance cover to meet claims made by survivors and bereaved families.

James Healy-Pratt said reports in the insurance media suggested LaMia had only $25 million (£20 million) in coverage.

Even though insurance levels can be lower in Latin America and in the charter market the figure, which will cover claims from the six survivors and 71 killed, is a fraction of what was paid out in many other disasters."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-shortfall-families-bereaved-columbia-plane/

 

[gregjrichards]

"HEARTBREAKING video footage from inside the plane that crashed this week in Colombia shows the co-pilot and team members speaking at their excitement about the trip.

Colombian model Sisy Arias, 29, who was on her first flight as a civilian co-pilot can be seen sitting in the cockpit talking about her pride at transporting the team.
“We are ready to offer them the best service,” she said, beaming at the fact the popular team is flying on Bolivian airline Lamia."

http://www.news.com.au/world/south-...d/news-story/e28cd97828b0cf00e25e5dcea4405fb2

How awful your first flight as co-pilot and you are killed. Horrendous.

 

[emirates1957]

After speaking to our Engineers and one of our Captains, they advised the following.

I made quick notes so please excuse, the laypersons explanation.

They confirmed that this A/C could still receive electrics although they had no fuel. STANDBY electrics are provided from the APU or RAT - Ram Air Turbine which is a fan normally housed in the nose which will protrude and provide air much like a windmill does. The boys said they may have a 20-30 minute time frame. Bearing in mind no fuel no power so we are gliding. Standby power will provide the basics, eg air speed, altitude. Our Pilots cover events like this in the SIM which are bloody hard. Wonder how much SIM time would be allocated to smaller charter companies in order to maintain competency in such events?

Our crew will check the amount of fuel currently on board and the amount delivered by the refueller to make sure it coincides with the fuel ordered. Fuel will be checked at top of climb going into cruise. They will correlate the time flown with remaining fuel. At the top of descent crew will check weather at destination. Sufficient fuel will be taken to make 2 approaches and an alternative. Always give yourself an out !!!! Feel free to ask more questions.

 

[gregjrichards]

"The plane which crashed in Colombia, wiping out a Brazilian football team, was late taking off because crew had to search for one of the players' lost video games, it was revealed today.

The delayed departure meant a planned refuelling stop in Cobija, on the border between Brazil and Bolivia, was abandoned because the airport did not operate after midnight.

The chartered flight carrying members of top flight club Chapecoense to the final of the Copa Sudamericana then had to wait for a landing slot at Medellin airport - and ran out of fuel before it was able to land.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ooking-player-s-video-game.html#ixzz4Rdg9e0DB

It's just tragic this event combined with the pilot deciding to chance the journey knowing they had insufficient fuel led to the deaths of 71 people including the pilot himself.

 

[gregjrichards]

After speaking to our Engineers and one of our Captains, they advised the following.

I made quick notes so please excuse, the laypersons explanation.

They confirmed that this A/C could still receive electrics although they had no fuel. STANDBY electrics are provided from the APU or RAT - Ram Air Turbine which is a fan normally housed in the nose which will protrude and provide air much like a windmill does. The boys said they may have a 20-30 minute time frame. Bearing in mind no fuel no power so we are gliding. Standby power will provide the basics, eg air speed, altitude. Our Pilots cover events like this in the SIM which are bloody hard. Wonder how much SIM time would be allocated to smaller charter companies in order to maintain competency in such events?

Our crew will check the amount of fuel currently on board and the amount delivered by the refueller to make sure it coincides with the fuel ordered. Fuel will be checked at top of climb going into cruise. They will correlate the time flown with remaining fuel. At the top of descent crew will check weather at destination. Sufficient fuel will be taken to make 2 approaches and an alternative. Always give yourself an out !!!! Feel free to ask more questions.

Thank you emirates1957 for asking your colleagues. Clearly the plane should never have flown that journey without being able to refuel. I'm sure the pilot must have been under significant financial and time pressure to fly when he did but he, his co-pilot, crew members and passengers paid the ultimate price for that decision.

I am sympathetic to the the pilot who I'm sure tried to do everything he could to save the plane and everyone onboard in the last minutes of his life.

 

[CARIIS]

"The plane which crashed in Colombia, wiping out a Brazilian football team, was late taking off because crew had to search for one of the players' lost video games, it was revealed today.

The delayed departure meant a planned refuelling stop in Cobija, on the borderbetween Brazil and Bolivia, was abandoned because the airport did not operate after midnight.

The chartered flight carrying members of top flight club Chapecoense to the final of the Copa Sudamericana then had to wait for a landing slot at Medellin airport - and ran out of fuel before it was able to land.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ooking-player-s-video-game.html#ixzz4Rdg9e0DB

It's just tragic this event combined with the pilot deciding to chance the journey knowing they had insufficient fuel led to the deaths of 71 people including the pilot himself.

wow celebrity

 

[emirates1957]

here is the whole exchange in the final minute and a half

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/30/chapecoense-plane-crashed-aircraft-allowed-land-first/


more...

[FONT="]V[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT="]ivaColombia flight FC8170 requested to land at Jose Maria Cordova International airport due to a fault in the cabin

[/FONT][FONT="][INDENT=2][FONT="]After the charter plane had fallen to 9,000 feet, Mr Upegui describes how the Quiroga, who lost his own father to a plane crash when he was just a baby, was begging for help.

Avianca co-pilot said the air traffic controller’s voice broke

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/30/chapecoense-plane-crashed-aircraft-allowed-land-first/[/FONT]

[/INDENT]
[/FONT]

So the other A/C who suffered an emergency descent would also be required to call Mayday. If ATC were aware they had limited fuel this would have taken precedence.

 

[emirates1957]

Thank you emirates1957 for asking your colleagues. Clearly the plane should never have flown that journey without being able to refuel. I'm sure the pilot must have been under significant financial and time pressure to fly when he did but he, his co-pilot, crew members and passengers paid the ultimate price for that decision.

I am sympathetic to the the pilot who I'm sure tried to do everything he could to save the plane and everyone onboard in the last minutes of his life.

Same Greg......it sounds like they were trying to make up time.

 

[CARIIS]

Co-Pilot's First Flight With the Airline ..

other airlines and a period in storage between 2010 and 2013, it was acquired by LaMia Airlines, a Venezuelan-Bolivian airline.[SUP][6][/SUP] At the time of the accident, CP-2933 was the only serviceable aircraft in LaMia's fleet of three RJ85s.[SUP][8]

Avianca, Colombia's flag carrier and largest airline, provided 44 psychologists to help in the counseling of the families of the victims.

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[TH="class: nowrap tdEngines, align: left"]Engines
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[TH="class: nowrap tdDeliveryDate, align: left"]Delivered
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[TH="class: tdName, align: left"]Aircraft Name
[/TH]
[TH="class: tdEvents dt-last, align: left"]Remarks
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[TR="class: dt-odd"]
[TD="class: nowrap tdReg dt-first"]N523XJ[/TD]
[TD="class: tdType"]British Aerospace Avro RJ85[/TD]
[TD="class: tdAirline"]Mesaba Airlines[/TD]
[TD="class: tdConfig"]CY69[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdEngines"]4x LY LF507-1F[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdDeliveryDate, align: right"]30. Mar 1999[/TD]
[TD="class: tdName"][/TD]
[TD="class: tdEvents dt-last"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: dt-even, bgcolor: #EDF5FF"]
[TD="class: nowrap tdReg dt-first"]EI-RJK[/TD]
[TD="class: tdType"]British Aerospace Avro RJ85[/TD]
[TD="class: tdAirline"]Cityjet[/TD]
[TD="class: tdConfig"]CY95[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdEngines"]4x LY LF507-1F[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdDeliveryDate, align: right"]18. Sep 2007[/TD]
[TD="class: tdName"]Collanmore Island[/TD]
[TD="class: tdEvents dt-last"]

• opf Air France

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: dt-odd"]
[TD="class: nowrap tdReg dt-first"]P4-LOR[/TD]
[TD="class: tdType"]British Aerospace Avro RJ85[/TD]
[TD="class: tdAirline"]LAMIA[/TD]
[TD="class: tdConfig"]Y95[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdEngines"]4x LY LF507-1F[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdDeliveryDate, align: right"]16. Oct 2013[/TD]
[TD="class: tdName"][/TD]
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[TD="class: nowrap tdReg dt-first"]YV3035[/TD]
[TD="class: tdType"]British Aerospace Avro RJ85[/TD]
[TD="class: tdAirline"]LAMIA[/TD]
[TD="class: tdConfig"]Y95[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdEngines"]4x LY LF507-1F[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdDeliveryDate, align: right"]Sep 2014[/TD]
[TD="class: tdName"][/TD]
[TD="class: tdEvents dt-last"]

• rr

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[TD="class: nowrap tdReg dt-first"]CP-2933[/TD]
[TD="class: tdType"]British Aerospace Avro RJ85[/TD]
[TD="class: tdAirline"]LAMIA[/TD]
[TD="class: tdConfig"]Y95[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdEngines"]4x LY LF507-1F[/TD]
[TD="class: nowrap tdDeliveryDate, align: right"]Jan 2015[/TD]
[TD="class: tdName"][/TD]
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• tfd
• Crashed 28. Nov 2016 at MDE on approach to the airport possibly due to fuel starvation. The flight was carrying 68 passengers and 9 crew

[/TD]
[/TR]
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Aviation Photos British Aerospace Avro RJ85 - E2348




[/SUP]

A VivaColombia Airbus A320-200 registration HK-5051 performing flight FC-8170 from Bogota to San Andres Island (Colombia) was enroute at FL360 about 150nm northwest of Medellin at 02:11Z when the crew initiated a diversion to Medellin, turned around and descended to FL160 on the way to Medellin. The aircraft reached the Final Approach Fix for the approach to runway 01 at 02:45Z and touched down safely at 02:51Z.

On Nov 30th 2016 the crew of Avianca Airbus A320-200 registration N411AV performing flight AV-9771 from Cartagena (Colombia) to Medellin reported they were arriving at Medellin at about the same time the VivaColombia Airbus A320 diverted to Medellin with priority due to a suspected fuel leak and the LAMIA aircraft arrived at Medellin. They (Avianca) and the LAMIA were sent into holds while the VivaColombia received priority to land in Medellin. The LAMIA crew, told to be number 3 for the approach, queried about the estimated delay, then transmitted they were commencing the approach due to problems with the fuel, then declared Mayday due to electrical failure and contact was lost.

​

http://avherald.com/h?article=4a16583c&opt=0

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/British-Aerospace/BAe-146/E2348/CP-2933-LAMIA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaMia_Flight_2933

 

[CARIIS]

[FONT=&quot]International flight regulations require aircraft to carry enough reserve fuel to fly for 30 minutes after reaching their destination.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“In this case, sadly, the aircraft did not have enough fuel to meet the regulations for contingency,” said Freddy Bonilla, secretary of airline security at Colombia’s aviation authority.



Bolivian authorities said they were suspending LaMia’s operating license and replacing the management of its aviation authority to ensure a transparent investigation.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Air traffic controller Yaneth Molina, who received the distress call, said in a letter written to colleagues that she had received death threats following the crash.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I did all that was humanly possible and technically necessary to preserve the lives of the passengers, but unfortunately my efforts weren’t enough,” Molina wrote in her letter, which was later released to the press.

Only 0.5% of accidents on record were blamed on low fuel, according to the US-based Flight Safety Foundation.

workers on Thursday erected temporary structures in the stadium to shelter the coffins of 51 victims – players, staff and journalists –

Fox Sports Brasil, which lost six of its journalists

transport the aircraft’s black boxes back to the UK, where the information will be downloaded.

[FONT=&quot]worst air disaster of 2016


[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The initial decision to deploy a commuter jet designed for short hops on a flight of 1,850 miles looks questionable. The journey is the same distance as Belfast to Istanbul – a route that would not be sanctioned as a regular scheduled route using such a plane.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The longest regular trip made by the aircraft type is believed to be 1,625 miles between Perth in Australia and Christmas Island, a journey of about four hours. The RJ85 had been flying for almost five hours when it crashed.

About four hours into the flight, the aircraft could have diverted to Bogota, the declared alternate airport.

are required to declare a fuel emergency by broadcasting “Mayday, Mayday, Mayday, Fuel”.

Alternative explanations include faulty fuel gauges, a fuel leak, or an issue with the complex fuelling system for the four-engined aircraft.

Any captain who declares a fuel emergency faces an investigation from the aviation authorities, with possible consequences for the airline. Captain Quiroga was part-owner of LaMia.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/01/colombia-plane-crash-bolivia-suspends-airline-lamia-chapecoense


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...umbia-chapecoense-football-team-a7450606.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...sh-bolivia-suspends-airline-lamia-chapecoense[/FONT]

 

[CARIIS]

Same Greg......it sounds like they were trying to make up time.

The more that emerges it just seems like so much of this is related to "famous" - like stars demanding we leave now.

What is so baffling is the capt on the same plane - one would think HE would want enough fuel- for his life.

From the numbers we have heard this was not even close for the planned flight plan.

It was not that long a flight which might make it reasonable to conclude that cabin crew were aware of weather ahead - making their decisions more bewildering.

Wonder if there was a strong headwind? Does not IMO excuse choices ; but might explain a portion of this tragedy

When was there game supposed to be played??. How many days after they landed?

moo

 

[Jax49]

The more that emerges it just seems like so much of this is related to "famous" - like stars demanding we leave now.

What is so baffling is the capt on the same plane - one would think HE would want enough fuel- for his life.

From the numbers we have heard this was not even close for the planned flight plan.

It was not that long a flight which might make it reasonable to conclude that cabin crew were aware of weather ahead - making their decisions more bewildering.

Wonder if there was a strong headwind? Does not IMO excuse choices ; but might explain a portion of this tragedy

When was there game supposed to be played??. How many days after they landed?

moo

The crash was Monday night and the match was supposed to be Wednesday (I assume at night).

I'm thinking more along the lines of excitement getting the better of good judgement (on the part of the pilot/crew).

The airline specialized in transporting soccer teams, and the upcoming match was a big deal in the world of South American soccer. MOO

 

[MelmothTheLost]

"The plane which crashed in Colombia, wiping out a Brazilian football team, was late taking off because crew had to search for one of the players' lost video games, it was revealed today.

The delayed departure meant a planned refuelling stop in Cobija, on the border between Brazil and Bolivia, was abandoned because the airport did not operate after midnight.

For want of a nail, a shoe was lost .....

70+ people died because a grown man couldn't go a few hours without playing a video game.

 

[CARIIS]

For want of a nail, a shoe was lost .....

70+ people died because a grown man couldn't go a few hours without playing a video game.

Which airport did not operate midnight the fuel stop or arrival terminal ??