POI: Michael Pak

[Tugela]

Then I think that JB had to have had something to do with this but then how does MP add in.
Then it hit me...what if SG was threaten by two males in JB house and said they were going to kill her...but then how would they do this with her driver with?
What if they said they were going to kill him and her? Maybe MP really doesn't have anything to do with this. Maybe they were going to kill SG and then kill MP so they didn't have any one to wittiness that SG went missing. But, SG was to quick to call the police and they backed off then. And MP really did leave at 6 AM...not thinking that JB or someone in his house had went looking for SG and found her.

That would not have happened, not at his house, because the client has no way of knowing what sort of record is being kept of the transaction. They have no way of knowing if MP is the only other person who knows where she is. Many escorts employ drivers on a per ride basis, and that is all the driver does. There will often be someone completely different taking the actual calls setting up the appointment (usually another woman, they even have a name - phone girls). There may be a pimp overseeing everything. In other words there may be multiple people involved behind the scenes and the client has no idea how many or who they are.

If the client was going to kill an escort he would have arranged to meet her at a location that couldnt be tied back to him. In other words, not at home.

If he was going to kill a prostitute in his home, he would pick up a streetwalker, because then there would be no link to him even if he took her home.

The reason the killer of the GB4 has not been caught is because he ensures that there is no link between him and the victim.

So, the fact that she was an escort and that she went to an identifiable residence pretty much means that there was no intent to kill.

 

[Tugela]

How about this as a theory: SG goes to meet her client, and she/they do drugs. She starts to go into an OD state. The client sees this and does NOT want an OD going on in his house, so he wants her gone ASAP. Things get tense and this triggers the drama. She leaves and the rest is history.

Why would this be an issue? Simple. Supplying someone with a controlled substance is a felony in New York (I believe). New York has a felony murder rule. So, if you supply someone with a narcotic, they OD and subsequently die as a result, you could be charged with felony murder. This is one of the main reasons why people who OD are often dumped and abandoned by their friends.

That could explain why JB was so anxious for her to leave. He might have believed and feared that things were heading in a direction far worse than having a prostitute in his house.

 

[Redbird]

FACTS A drug test for cocaine was performed on the remains and was negative. No other drug test was done. We have no evidence that she was using drugs that night.

 

[fred&edna]

FACTS A drug test for cocaine was performed on the remains and was negative. No other drug test was done. We have no evidence that she was using drugs that night.

Exactly. Conclusion and speculation based on "filler" (aka no evidence)

 

[mcme]

FACTS A drug test for cocaine was performed on the remains and was negative. No other drug test was done. We have no evidence that she was using drugs that night.

Redbird, the body's system's that process a drug like cocaine and could show if it was being used when it died didn't exist anymore when SG was found. It's not that they were tested and found to be negative.

 

[fred&edna]

Drugs weren't found and there are no statements that anyone "used anything" that evening.

We are back to supposition.

 

[Vivalor]

Still not convinced.
A girl was running in fear of her life and ended up dead. And said many of times that someone was trying to kill her. How often does that happen? What are the odds?
Someone who had drugs on them or had done drugs, been in trouble for prostitution more then once is not going to call the cops unless she felt like she was in real danger.

 

[WINDSOR]

Still not convinced.
A girl was running in fear of her life and ended up dead. And said many of times that someone was trying to kill her. How often does that happen? What are the odds?
Someone who had drugs on them or had done drugs, been in trouble for prostitution more then once is not going to call the cops unless she felt like she was in real danger.

One thing we all should accept that Tugela believes SG died naturally as the result of her own actions. No criminal activity, by anybody, lead to her death. Simple case closed.

You and I and many others do not accept that conclusion, but we are not going to change Tugela’s mind, and I think it is fruitless to try and do so.

In a case like this where there are so many unknowns; sleuthers have to make assumptions based on the behaviors of the people involved.

I believe you are making a reasonable assumption that SG would not have called 911 if she did not feel threatened.

I make the assumption that MP had dealings with JB previously. Otherwise why would he let a ‘john’ drive off with SG that evening to get ‘supplies’? That is not typical escort-john-driver behavior.

Why did JB call MP in to deal with SG and her fear of being murdered unless they had some sort of relationship previously? (Where did JB get MP’s cell number?)

Why as a bodyguard/driver did MP not confront JB and deal with him or whoever was in JB’s house that made SG feel threatened?
Why did SG refuse to go with her driver/bodyguard MP and in fact ran away from him?

So people can blame the victim SG, for all these unusual actions by MP and JB. They can blame it on her supposed mental illness and unverified drug usage. In reality SG did not display any manic symptoms when she called 911, so she probably was not experiencing symptoms of the mental illness. The fact she was working, points to the fact she was not experiencing a depression either.


Dealing with drug usage, drugs could cause paranoia which was how SG could be behaving. To be clear, she was genuinely afraid or paranoid at the time. Probably SG had used one or more of the following drugs that night.

The drugs marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines and/or ecstasy are known to create paranoiac reactions in some individuals, under some circumstances depending on amount ingested and so on. Assuming that SG was familiar with these drugs, she probably was familiar with their effect on her, so again it would be a surprise if her fears were not genuine but based on drug usage (If a drug has a bad side effect on you, you tend not to use it).

That brings the next question, could she have been drugged against her will? If she was, then her death becomes a murder in the eyes of the law.
So as we come around full circle, most people do not take drugs that have negative side effects for them. If SG was having paranoid reactions due to drugs, chances are good they were given against her will. Who ever gave her those drugs (that supposedly caused the paranoid behavior) is criminally responsible for her death.

So it comes down to this
a) SG was really and genuinely in fear for life.
b) SG was having a paranoid reaction to the drugs she ingested. There is no evidence of drug usage or admittance of such a fact by JB or MP.
Would SG who was cognizant of her mental health, knowingly ingest a drug that would cause her a paranoid reaction? You must assume she had experience with a broad spectrum of drugs and was aware of their effect on her.
c) Then if SG was in a drug induced paranoia therefore chances are great that they were given to her criminally.

The results are the same, she was really afraid, or had paranoid fear as a result of ingestion of drugs against her will. Since there is no evidence of drug usage I believe she was really afraid.

MOO

 

[Vivalor]

One thing we all should accept that Tugela believes SG died naturally as the result of her own actions. No criminal activity, by anybody, lead to her death. Simple case closed.

You and I and many others do not accept that conclusion, but we are not going to change Tugela’s mind, and I think it is fruitless to try and do so.

In a case like this where there are so many unknowns; sleuthers have to make assumptions based on the behaviors of the people involved.

I believe you are making a reasonable assumption that SG would not have called 911 if she did not feel threatened.

I make the assumption that MP had dealings with JB previously. Otherwise why would he let a ‘john’ drive off with SG that evening to get ‘supplies’? That is not typical escort-john-driver behavior.

Why did JB call MP in to deal with SG and her fear of being murdered unless they had some sort of relationship previously? (Where did JB get MP’s cell number?)

Why as a bodyguard/driver did MP not confront JB and deal with him or whoever was in JB’s house that made SG feel threatened?
Why did SG refuse to go with her driver/bodyguard MP and in fact ran away from him?

So people can blame the victim SG, for all these unusual actions by MP and JB. They can blame it on her supposed mental illness and unverified drug usage. In reality SG did not display any manic symptoms when she called 911, so she probably was not experiencing symptoms of the mental illness. The fact she was working, points to the fact she was not experiencing a depression either.


Dealing with drug usage, drugs could cause paranoia which was how SG could be behaving. To be clear, she was genuinely afraid or paranoid at the time. Probably SG had used one or more of the following drugs that night.

The drugs marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines and/or ecstasy are known to create paranoiac reactions in some individuals, under some circumstances depending on amount ingested and so on. Assuming that SG was familiar with these drugs, she probably was familiar with their effect on her, so again it would be a surprise if her fears were not genuine but based on drug usage (If a drug has a bad side effect on you, you tend not to use it).

That brings the next question, could she have been drugged against her will? If she was, then her death becomes a murder in the eyes of the law.
So as we come around full circle, most people do not take drugs that have negative side effects for them. If SG was having paranoid reactions due to drugs, chances are good they were given against her will. Who ever gave her those drugs (that supposedly caused the paranoid behavior) is criminally responsible for her death.

So it comes down to this
a) SG was really and genuinely in fear for life.
b) SG was having a paranoid reaction to the drugs she ingested. There is no evidence of drug usage or admittance of such a fact by JB or MP.
Would SG who was cognizant of her mental health, knowingly ingest a drug that would cause her a paranoid reaction? You must assume she had experience with a broad spectrum of drugs and was aware of their effect on her.
c) Then if SG was in a drug induced paranoia therefore chances are great that they were given to her criminally.

The results are the same, she was really afraid, or had paranoid fear as a result of ingestion of drugs against her will. Since there is no evidence of drug usage I believe she was really afraid.

MOO

I agree with you 100%. And she could have possibly been drugged with out her consent or knowledge. Which then leads to the question of why would you drug a call girl who was there to have sex and more then likely been willing to do drugs.

 

[Tugela]

FACTS A drug test for cocaine was performed on the remains and was negative. No other drug test was done. We have no evidence that she was using drugs that night.

You have a link for that fact?

The remains were skeletal. I don't think you can test for drugs under those conditions. There is no tissue or blood to test.

 

[Tugela]

But is it really logical to think that a girl who was running scared for her life would think to grab her stuff? I mean if she was on her phone with 911 then panicked and took off out JB door running I'm pretty sure the last thing she would care about is her stuff. I think her life was her number on fear that night.

However, according to Coletti, she was carrying things, and she must have been carrying her phone (after all, she had been talking on it for 23 minutes). So, she must have at least had the sense of mind to grab some of her stuff, if not all of it.

 

[Tugela]

One thing we all should accept that Tugela believes SG died naturally as the result of her own actions. No criminal activity, by anybody, lead to her death. Simple case closed.

You and I and many others do not accept that conclusion, but we are not going to change Tugela’s mind, and I think it is fruitless to try and do so.

In a case like this where there are so many unknowns; sleuthers have to make assumptions based on the behaviors of the people involved.

I believe you are making a reasonable assumption that SG would not have called 911 if she did not feel threatened.

I make the assumption that MP had dealings with JB previously. Otherwise why would he let a ‘john’ drive off with SG that evening to get ‘supplies’? That is not typical escort-john-driver behavior.

Why did JB call MP in to deal with SG and her fear of being murdered unless they had some sort of relationship previously? (Where did JB get MP’s cell number?)

Why as a bodyguard/driver did MP not confront JB and deal with him or whoever was in JB’s house that made SG feel threatened?
Why did SG refuse to go with her driver/bodyguard MP and in fact ran away from him?

So people can blame the victim SG, for all these unusual actions by MP and JB. They can blame it on her supposed mental illness and unverified drug usage. In reality SG did not display any manic symptoms when she called 911, so she probably was not experiencing symptoms of the mental illness. The fact she was working, points to the fact she was not experiencing a depression either.


Dealing with drug usage, drugs could cause paranoia which was how SG could be behaving. To be clear, she was genuinely afraid or paranoid at the time. Probably SG had used one or more of the following drugs that night.

The drugs marijuana, cocaine, amphetamines and/or ecstasy are known to create paranoiac reactions in some individuals, under some circumstances depending on amount ingested and so on. Assuming that SG was familiar with these drugs, she probably was familiar with their effect on her, so again it would be a surprise if her fears were not genuine but based on drug usage (If a drug has a bad side effect on you, you tend not to use it).

That brings the next question, could she have been drugged against her will? If she was, then her death becomes a murder in the eyes of the law.
So as we come around full circle, most people do not take drugs that have negative side effects for them. If SG was having paranoid reactions due to drugs, chances are good they were given against her will. Who ever gave her those drugs (that supposedly caused the paranoid behavior) is criminally responsible for her death.

So it comes down to this
a) SG was really and genuinely in fear for life.
b) SG was having a paranoid reaction to the drugs she ingested. There is no evidence of drug usage or admittance of such a fact by JB or MP.
Would SG who was cognizant of her mental health, knowingly ingest a drug that would cause her a paranoid reaction? You must assume she had experience with a broad spectrum of drugs and was aware of their effect on her.
c) Then if SG was in a drug induced paranoia therefore chances are great that they were given to her criminally.

The results are the same, she was really afraid, or had paranoid fear as a result of ingestion of drugs against her will. Since there is no evidence of drug usage I believe she was really afraid.

MOO

You are missing a logical step. If SG was being threatened she might call 911, but the reverse is not necessarily true, the act of calling 911 does not mean that she actually was threatened. She might have believed she was under threat, but, as has been pointed out repeatedly, people who are in a paranoid delusional state believe that when no threat actually exists.

To decide if a threat actually existed or not, you have to look at what other evidence there is, for example, signs of physical attack. The problem is there is not any such evidence, every thing we know shows to a lack of physical attack.

MP would not have confronted JB if he could clearly see no threat existed and SG was acting in a paranoid manner. He would have entered the house in response and found JB trying to get SG out of the house. Why would he have confronted JB about that? In a situation like that he would have tried to get SG to leave and come with him, that is the logical course of action.

If SG was in a paranoid delusional state she would have seen MP as being in collusion with JB when he didn't immediately attack JB. That is how people in a paranoid delusional state think: if you are not with them in whatever they believe, you are against them. That would explain why she ran away when MP tried to get her out the house and take her away. She was not thinking in a rational manner.

They would not have mentioned drugs subsequently because it is a felony to supply people with narcotics, and no one is going to confess to that for no good reason. They would simply claim ignorance and there is no way to prove otherwise. So they would keep quite.

It is not a question of "blaming SG". Lots of people who are very experienced with drugs OD, it is common. Most of those people do not intend to OD, but they do as a result of inadvertantly using the wrong combo of drugs/alcohol at the wrong times and/or in combination with their physiology on that particular day. For example, if your blood pH varies slightly (it is called acidemia), it can result in systemically absorbed drug being released from tissue into your blood at much higher than normal levels. Drug users push the limits, and if you push the limits, sometimes you accidently go over. The symptoms she was exhibiting would have resulted from entering an OD state, so it would not have been a normal consequence of drug use.

As far as mental stability is concerned, the fact that she was working does not mean that she was stable. I suggest you go an read some of the review boards, there are LOTS of very flakey girls out there working, and there are many with substance abuse issues and work because it is the only way they can afford that lifestyle.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

However, according to Coletti, she was carrying things, and she must have been carrying her phone (after all, she had been talking on it for 23 minutes). So, she must have at least had the sense of mind to grab some of her stuff, if not all of it.

GC only mentioned her jacket over her shoulder in many interviews and news reports. If GC was the first neighbor to see her then that's all she had with her. I don't believe she was concerned with what she left behind at JBs house or in MP car. The jacket was probably by the door and she just grabbed it because it was convenient. In her fear and panic to get away to save her life, she didn't stop to gather up her stuff. She just ran out. Her stuff and possessions were not even on her mind. Her mind was on just getting out and away to find safety. IMO

 

[NoviceSleuth]

You have a link for that fact?

The remains were skeletal. I don't think you can test for drugs under those conditions. There is no tissue or blood to test.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.news12.com/articleDetail....news_type=news

"Lawyer: Shannan Gilbert's autopsy report inconclusive

(05/01/12) OAK BEACH - Two years ago to the day after Shannan Gilbert went missing in Oak Beach, her mother and sisters met with the Suffolk County Medical Examiner.

A lawyer for Gilbert's mother says the results of the autopsy report they received today are inconclusive. Originally, police had said they believed Gilbert had drowned in the swampy area of Oak Beach. However, the attorney says the report contains no evidence of that.

The report shows that Gilbert had no traces of cocaine in her system, although the Gilberts' lawyer says that was the only drug her remains were tested for.

 

[Redbird]

You can test for drugs in hair samples. I find it very strange that they only tested for cocaine. If it is not possible to do a drug test that long after death then why did they do one?

 

[WINDSOR]

Tugela said in response to my post........

You are missing a logical step. If SG was being threatened she might call 911, but the reverse is not necessarily true, the act of calling 911 does not mean that she actually was threatened. She might have believed she was under threat, but, as has been pointed out repeatedly, people who are in a paranoid delusional state believe that when no threat actually exists.

I accept the fact that she might have been in a paranoid delusional state; but I believe that state would have been the result of a drug overdose. If that drug overdose was given non-consentually or provided to her and even if she willingly accepted, and the drug od results in her death; I believe that means crimonal negligence causing death be the minimum offense.

To decide if a threat actually existed or not, you have to look at what other evidence there is, for example, signs of physical attack. The problem is there is not any such evidence, every thing we know shows to a lack of physical attack.

I think most females will get scared or feel threatened without physical attack, under the following circumstances:

Guns or similar weapon brandished; Surgical tools; Syringes; Verbal threats; Certain types of photographs, Body parts of deceased humans; Restraints and nooses are just some examples.


MP would not have confronted JB if he could clearly see no threat existed and SG was acting in a paranoid manner. He would have entered the house in response and found JB trying to get SG out of the house. Why would he have confronted JB about that? In a situation like that he would have tried to get SG to leave and come with him, that is the logical course of action.

You are right to say MP would not confront JB if MP saw no threat. MP would also not confront JB if MP was part or in collusion to the threat.


If SG was in a paranoid delusional state she would have seen MP as being in collusion with JB when he didn't immediately attack JB. That is how people in a paranoid delusional state think: if you are not with them in whatever they believe, you are against them. That would explain why she ran away when MP tried to get her out the house and take her away. She was not thinking in a rational manner.

I like your suggestion that SG might have felt MP was in collusion. It makes sense.


They would not have mentioned drugs subsequently because it is a felony to supply people with narcotics, and no one is going to confess to that for no good reason. They would simply claim ignorance and there is no way to prove otherwise. So they would keep quite.

Exactly, keeping quiet is what MP wants to do, about everything.



It is not a question of "blaming SG". Lots of people who are very experienced with drugs OD, it is common. Most of those people do not intend to OD, but they do as a result of inadvertently using the wrong combo of drugs/alcohol at the wrong times and/or in combination with their physiology on that particular day. For example, if your blood pH varies slightly (it is called acidemia), it can result in systemically absorbed drug being released from tissue into your blood at much higher than normal levels. Drug users push the limits, and if you push the limits, sometimes you accidently go over. The symptoms she was exhibiting would have resulted from entering an OD state, so it would not have been a normal consequence of drug use.

Rather than debating this point, be reminded even paranoids can have real enemies. The fact she might have been paranoid as a result of a drug od does not preclude somebody was a threat to her. By their occupational demands escorts must have a higher level of threat recognition. Much like a police officer, who is much aware of risk situations than normal civilians, SG as well was much more attuned to risk situations.


As far as mental stability is concerned, the fact that she was working does not mean that she was stable. I suggest you go an read some of the review boards, there are LOTS of very flakey girls out there working, and there are many with substance abuse issues and work because it is the only way they can afford that lifestyle.

I was referring to her being depressed, untreated bi-poYou are missing a logical step. If SG was being threatened she might call 911, but the reverse is not necessarily true, the act of calling 911 does not mean that she actually was threatened. She might have believed she was under threat, but, as has been pointed out repeatedly, people who are in a paranoid delusional state believe that when no threat actually exists.


As far as mental stability is concerned, the fact that she was working does not mean that she was stable. I suggest you go an read some of the review boards, there are LOTS of very flakey girls out there working, and there are many with substance abuse issues and work because it is the only way they can afford that lifestyle.

I was referring to SG being depressed, untreated Bi-Polar disorder. When in their depressive states, they find even everyday tasks difficult. Therefore if she was working she was not likely in a depressed state.


In conclusion, if SG received drugs at JB's, that resulted in her death, a crime has occurred. Currently there is no proof to support that charge. We only know of two people living who know what went on in JB's house. JB and MP, and they are not talking.

MOO

 

[mcme]

It's not so much that they're not talking, they're just not giving the answers that support what you believe happened. They've answered all these questions before, and have been reported as cooperative by LE.

 

[WINDSOR]

It's not so much that they're not talking, they're just not giving the answers that support what you believe happened. They've answered all these questions before, and have been reported as cooperative by LE.

mcme,

Very valid statement; I was not aware SG and MP answered these questions

For JB

-Did you give SG any drugs?
-Was there anybody else with SG and you in your home that night?
-Had you had dealings with MP previously?
-Explain, why you think SG felt she was in danger or somebody was trying to kill her?
-Why did you not assist SG in giving the 911 operator directions to your house.
-If you hired SG as an escort why did you not have sexual relations?
-If your hired SG as an escort why did you not pay her?

mcme, do you think LE asked JB these questions?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For MP.

-Why did you tell GC that he should not have called 911?
-Were you angry that SG ran away from you?
-Did SG pay you?
-Did you feel SG was in a drug overdose?
-Did you sense any threat to SG?
-As her driver/security why did you leave Oak Beach,before knowing SG's whereabouts?
-How did you expect SG to return home if you left Oak Beach?
-Besides CPH who did you speak to when you returned to Oak Beach
on May 3?
-Did you give CPH, MG's phone number and ask CPH to call MG? Why?


mcme,do you think LE asked MP these questions?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW I think a seasoned detective like Hawkshaw would have even better questions to ask.

Consdering Dormer had publicly stated SG wandered away and likely drowned, I do not think MP or JB were asked relevant questions by LE?

But since both, MP and SG were so co-opertative, I am sure they would love to respond to these and similar questions.

Anybody care to ask MP or SG to comment?

MOO

 

[Vivalor]

However, according to Coletti, she was carrying things, and she must have been carrying her phone (after all, she had been talking on it for 23 minutes). So, she must have at least had the sense of mind to grab some of her stuff, if not all of it.

I agree with the fact that she was carrying some of her things. I think she very well could of had her purse and ran out with the cell phone. It's just I'm not sure if I believe she would have grabbed all her stuff. Those knee high boots are bulky and a pain to carry. They don't normally fit in to a bag well. I just as a woman who likes to carry large purses and bags with my things in it...I just don't think I would bother with that if I was scared. And I know first hand those boots suck. As far as my cell phone...it would have never left my hand. Purses are all most all ways ready to grab and go. Same with jacket.

 

[fred&edna]

I agree with the fact that she was carrying some of her things. I think she very well could of had her purse and ran out with the cell phone. It's just I'm not sure if I believe she would have grabbed all her stuff. Those knee high boots are bulky and a pain to carry. They don't normally fit in to a bag well. I just as a woman who likes to carry large purses and bags with my things in it...I just don't think I would bother with that if I was scared. And I know first hand those boots suck. As far as my cell phone...it would have never left my hand. Purses are all most all ways ready to grab and go. Same with jacket.

I agree, and especially IF in some paranoid delusional state (or drug induced craze)... she didn't do a great deal of "gathering belongings". (jmo)