POI: Michael Pak

[NoviceSleuth]

IMO I still feel that SG just had 2 items with her when she ran out of JBs House - her jacket and cell.

GC also told LE that was all she had with her.

 

[mcme]

Windsor, because they were called cooperative and also all but cleared as suspects I'd bet everything that they answered all the questions you came up with and a few hundred more including subtle variations designed to trip up a person being less than honest. The guys who were asking the questions know what they're doing when it comes to sifting through a bs story and they also know when they're being told the truth. They wouldn't have their jobs if they were bumbling idiots who easily had the wool pulled over their eyes.

 

[WINDSOR]

Windsor, because they were called cooperative and also all but cleared as suspects I'd bet everything that they answered all the questions you came up with and a few hundred more including subtle variations designed to trip up a person being less than honest. The guys who were asking the questions know what they're doing when it comes to sifting through a bs story and they also know when they're being told the truth. They wouldn't have their jobs if they were bumbling idiots who easily had the wool pulled over their eyes.

If you are willing to bet everything on the competence, ethics, and motivation of the SCPD and all its members, I admire your confidence. Unfortunately after watching their leader in 2010, Dormer, I do not have that confidence.

If what you say is true, that SCPD performed a thorough and complete investigation, from your point of view is the case closed?

MOO

 

[mcme]

If you are willing to bet everything on the competence, ethics, and motivation of the SCPD and all its members, I admire your confidence. Unfortunately after watching their leader in 2010, Dormer, I do not have that confidence.

If what you say is true, that SCPD performed a thorough and complete investigation, from your point of view is the case closed?

MOO

I don't think they'd close it without coming to some conclusion. I'd guess it's stalled waiting for something new to help point in the right direction.
As to the competence etc. of the entire SCPD, the amount of members almost guarantees that there's an incompetent and unethical member or two, but I don't believe there's a chance that that small group makes up the entire group of LEO's who're investigating the SG/LISK/GB4+ others case. There are certainly enough dedicated professionals involved so that every angle from all the above questions and then some to a comprehensive look at all the phone records of the people mentioned has been looked at under a microscope. If there was so much as one wrong number phone call between any of the people who should have had zero contact with one another according to their previous statements, LE would be all over it. Same goes for any contradiction at all between all the given statements. If there was any piece of info that didn't mesh with the other pieces, it would be jumped on. The idea of a widespread conspiracy to avoid embarrassment to anyone is silly. There will always be ambitious people who would take that sort of thing to advance their own career and to hell with what the old boys network wants.

 

[WINDSOR]

mcme,

I respect your opinion and viewpoint. As I have stated before I feel MP is the pivot that this case revolves on. It is extremely hard for me to accept the fact that MP has been thoroughly interviewed and was totally fortcoming and none of the information he gave LE was of any use.

I know SCPD will not release transcripts of those interviews, so we cannot be sure what the questions and answers were.

I am going to take a couple weeks sabbatical away from this site and re-think it all.

MOO

 

[Tugela]

GC only mentioned her jacket over her shoulder in many interviews and news reports. If GC was the first neighbor to see her then that's all she had with her. I don't believe she was concerned with what she left behind at JBs house or in MP car. The jacket was probably by the door and she just grabbed it because it was convenient. In her fear and panic to get away to save her life, she didn't stop to gather up her stuff. She just ran out. Her stuff and possessions were not even on her mind. Her mind was on just getting out and away to find safety. IMO

She had 23 minutes to gather her stuff. She had plenty of time. It is not as though she was under attack and immediatly fled. There was a huge time interval involved when picking up her stuff was possible.

 

[Tugela]

You can test for drugs in hair samples. I find it very strange that they only tested for cocaine. If it is not possible to do a drug test that long after death then why did they do one?

Drug residues will only accumulate in hair once the hair has time to grow. It gets incorporated into hair as it grows (it takes quite a long time for all traces of drug to be cleared from your body - until it does it can get incorporated into hair, sort of like tree rings, lol). It wouldn't be there immediately after use.

Also, if she was a casual user there would be residue from previous use, so analysing the hair wouldnt tell them anything usefull in this particular case.

 

[Tugela]

I agree with the fact that she was carrying some of her things. I think she very well could of had her purse and ran out with the cell phone. It's just I'm not sure if I believe she would have grabbed all her stuff. Those knee high boots are bulky and a pain to carry. They don't normally fit in to a bag well. I just as a woman who likes to carry large purses and bags with my things in it...I just don't think I would bother with that if I was scared. And I know first hand those boots suck. As far as my cell phone...it would have never left my hand. Purses are all most all ways ready to grab and go. Same with jacket.

Remember, the theory is that she was in the process of ODing. Under those circumstances she would not have been acting or thinking in the same way as a rational person. So, she you can't extrapolate what you might have done under those circumstances.

In this sort of situation she could have been both rational and irrational in how she thought and acted at the same time. Her concious mind may have been irrational while the subconcious remained rational, so she fled in fear but collected her things before doing so. To an outside observer that would be a manifestation of crazy.

 

[Vivalor]

Remember, the theory is that she was in the process of ODing. Under those circumstances she would not have been acting or thinking in the same way as a rational person. So, she you can't extrapolate what you might have done under those circumstances.

In this sort of situation she could have been both rational and irrational in how she thought and acted at the same time. Her concious mind may have been irrational while the subconcious remained rational, so she fled in fear but collected her things before doing so. To an outside observer that would be a manifestation of crazy.

But if she was oding this would lead me to believe that she would not be able to grab those boots, a big bag, a jacket, a purse, well also carrying a cell phone in her hand.
I am telling you it's not as easy as it looks. I've done a lot of traveling, carrying multiple bags, and at one point had a pair of boots that would not fit in a bag. It's a pain and almost takes some skills to pull off. If she was oDing then this would have been even harder for her to pull to off. Let alone then run. Dunk under a boat. Be able to get up and run with all that stuff in her hands. I just don't see it. I can't bring myself to believe this.
Now as far as your theory goes....I actually believed the same as you for the longest time. But just like I can't get over the running with all that stuff in her hands let alone well messed up enough to be oding. I can't get over the fact that she was telling 911 someone was trying to kill her. And ended up dead. Then in a search for her found four bodies of other women. Maybe if the only bodies that were found where those of Jane doe, the baby, the dismembered Jessica, and Asian man then yes I could go with what you are saying. Then it would maybe make more sense to me. But the fact they were all call girls off of craigslist. All in their 20's. All last seen alive well going out for a call. It's to much for me and I can't get past that enough to go with your theory. I do respect your thoughts and opinions. I just can't bring myself to logically believe in it.

 

[WINDSOR]

I haven't left yet for my holiday, almost though.

I read this on another thread, and I thought it was most relevant since there are those who disagree with my theory.

Vernon Gebert, retired Commander for the NYPD said during a 48 hour interview that SG profile and victimology is the same as the other 4 girls found on OP.

He said its highly unusual that LE would say she drowned. He also said the fact her jeans, phone, and purse were found in one place and her body found in another is consistant with the body being dumped and getting rid of evidence.

Interesting analysis, but consistent with what many of us have been saying.

 

[mcme]

I haven't left yet for my holiday, almost though.

I read this on another thread, and I thought it was most relevant since there are those who disagree with my theory.




Interesting analysis, but consistent with what many of us have been saying.

I agree. It is also so vague that the particulars that are not known by us or the person who made the comments could easily be why SCPD went ahead and said SG's death was most likely accidental and not related to the GB4 or other bodies found.

 

[Peter Brendt]

I haven't left yet for my holiday, almost though.

I read this on another thread, and I thought it was most relevant since there are those who disagree with my theory.

Interesting analysis, but consistent with what many of us have been saying.

This was in reference to Deedee's post:
"Originally Posted by deedee21 View Post
Vernon Gebert, retired Commander for the NYPD said during a 48 hour interview that SG profile and victimology is the same as the other 4 girls found on OP.

He said its highly unusual that LE would say she drowned. He also said the fact her jeans, phone, and purse were found in one place and her body found in another is consistant with the body being dumped and getting rid of evidence."

Okay, before you rely too much on Vernon Gebert, lets also say, that his time at the NYPD was also the time:

- NYC had one of the lowest rates of solved murder cases not only in the US but worldwide.

- That they messed up good with Rifkin in his time

- That Gerbert has a reputation as a procedure man (and in that, he is really good), but surely not as profiler.

Having said that, I saw his interview in 48 Hours. First of all, "victimology" isn't limited to age, gender, body weight and profession, but also the detials how a victim behaved, what she did that night and the time before. To say, SG is the same victimology is therefore only partially correct.
So, despite his long time with the NYPD, he has never been correct in even one serial killer case. Which statistically means, if he says, SG was killed by LISK, chances are, LISK had never heard of her before she made the media.

 

[fred&edna]

This was in reference to Deedee's post:
"Originally Posted by deedee21 View Post
Vernon Gebert, retired Commander for the NYPD said during a 48 hour interview that SG profile and victimology is the same as the other 4 girls found on OP.

He said its highly unusual that LE would say she drowned. He also said the fact her jeans, phone, and purse were found in one place and her body found in another is consistant with the body being dumped and getting rid of evidence."

Okay, before you rely too much on Vernon Gebert, lets also say, that his time at the NYPD was also the time:

- NYC had one of the lowest rates of solved murder cases not only in the US but worldwide.

- That they messed up good with Rifkin in his time

- That Gerbert has a reputation as a procedure man (and in that, he is really good), but surely not as profiler.

Having said that, I saw his interview in 48 Hours. First of all, "victimology" isn't limited to age, gender, body weight and profession, but also the detials how a victim behaved, what she did that night and the time before. To say, SG is the same victimology is therefore only partially correct.
So, despite his long time with the NYPD, he has never been correct in even one serial killer case. Which statistically means, if he says, SG was killed by LISK, chances are, LISK had never heard of her before she made the media.

BBM Could you provide a link for this? You may be correct but supporting data/evidence would be most helpful.

 

[deedee21]

BBM Could you provide a link for this? You may be correct but supporting data/evidence would be most helpful.

The link is the very first 48 hours aired. YOUTUBE long island serial killer 48 hours mystery. Also, I would like to say what happen to SG is part of a much bigger picture. If these girls are not the victims of TYPICAL SERIAL KILLER, than what Mr. Gebert states makes alot of sense. IMO of course.

 

[fred&edna]

The link is the very first 48 hours aired. YOUTUBE long island serial killer 48 hours mystery. Also, I would like to say what happen to SG is part of a much bigger picture. If these girls are not the victims of TYPICAL SERIAL KILLER, than what Mr. Gebert states makes alot of sense. IMO of course.

Thanks, but I was asking PBrendt for the link to his statement.

Of note, I remember Geberth on the 48 hour episode and I like his thinking

 

[deedee21]

Thanks, but I was asking PBrendt for the link to his statement.

Of note, I remember Geberth on the 48 hour episode and I like his thinking

He was on both 48 hours. His statement about SG was on the first one aired. Several clips from tbe first show was added to the second show aired. It was almost like watching a repeat.

 

[Peter Brendt]

BBM Could you provide a link for this? You may be correct but supporting data/evidence would be most helpful.

This article has 2000. But you may want also to google "Crime Statistics NYC 1999" and the years before to compare to earlier times (pre-2000)
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/analysis_and_planning/historical_nyc_crime_data.shtml

For his work in form of books, you could look up Amazon. His books are still used for police officer training in the subject of procedures.

For how NYPD messed up the Rifkin-case, you could look up TruTV.

<modsnip>

 

[twocuriouscats]

Tugela, I am not sure what problem is solved. For months people have been saying that it was hypothermia that caused SG to remove clothing. I never accepted that theory. Now you are saying SG had surplus clothing that she
was carrying and she just dropped them in the marsh, to ease her journey.

Can you tell me what happened the items that were not found in the marsh or anyplace else?

Secondly if SG had removed her jeans prior to entering the marsh, what garment(s) was she wearing on her lower body?

Neither GC nor MP made any public comment on this issue. Most men are quite cognizant of young women's apparel or lack of it.

MOO

FWIW, MHO is that she never ran through that marsh. Her family said she can't swim. So if she got so far that her jeans and other belongings bogged down in the mud...and her a non-swimmer - she would have turned right around to try to save herself - delusional or not. She would NOT have proceeded almost 1/4 mile further. Unless someone can give a good explanation for that - I'm not buying it.

 

[Redbird]

When I have worn tight jeans the only way I could remove them was to sit down and then peel them off. I can't imagine her doing that in all that muck

 

[nugzter]

When I have worn tight jeans the only way I could remove them was to sit down and then peel them off. I can't imagine her doing that in all that muck

To my recollection, it has never been stated anywhere that she was wearing jeans when she left JB's and went on to GC's.