POI: Michael Pak

[twocuriouscats]

How about this as a theory: SG goes to meet her client, and she/they do drugs. She starts to go into an OD state. The client sees this and does NOT want an OD going on in his house, so he wants her gone ASAP. Things get tense and this triggers the drama. She leaves and the rest is history.

Why would this be an issue? Simple. Supplying someone with a controlled substance is a felony in New York (I believe). New York has a felony murder rule. So, if you supply someone with a narcotic, they OD and subsequently die as a result, you could be charged with felony murder. This is one of the main reasons why people who OD are often dumped and abandoned by their friends.

That could explain why JB was so anxious for her to leave. He might have believed and feared that things were heading in a direction far worse than having a prostitute in his house.

Yeah, like murder maybe?

First of all MOO is that SG did not OD - she wasn't even close to od'ing. Something scared the crap out of her. Was she delusional? I think not. Instead she is dead.
she calls 911...why? Because she thinks someone is trying to kill her. Can we be sure that she was wrong?????????????
The theory that that no one would give drugs to someone else because it could be traced back to them...why not? It's called a party. Even if they provided her with drugs - how could it be traced back to them? That could be one reason they (JB and MP) chased her out of the house and down the road... because she was od'ing? Is that what you really believe?
SG and MP were supposed to be making money that night - that's why they were there. JB says he never paid her...now why would that be acceptable to MP?

 

[Theforeigner]

This article has 2000. But you may want also to google "Crime Statistics NYC 1999" and the years before to compare to earlier times (pre-2000)
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/analysis_and_planning/historical_nyc_crime_data.shtml

For his work in form of books, you could look up Amazon. His books are still used for police officer training in the subject of procedures.

For how NYPD messed up the Rifkin-case, you could look up TruTV.

So ... happy now? Or do I have to carry Google to you?

Why is that you feel the need to patronize other posters over and over again?

 

[CriminalMinds]

The link is the very first 48 hours aired. YOUTUBE long island serial killer 48 hours mystery. Also, I would like to say what happen to SG is part of a much bigger picture. If these girls are not the victims of TYPICAL SERIAL KILLER, than what Mr. Gebert states makes alot of sense. IMO of course.

random Geberth piece
http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/signature.htm

 

[Mountain_Kat]

If you are willing to bet everything on the competence, ethics, and motivation of the SCPD and all its members, I admire your confidence. Unfortunately after watching their leader in 2010, Dormer, I do not have that confidence.

If what you say is true, that SCPD performed a thorough and complete investigation, from your point of view is the case closed?

MOO

Let us not forget Dormer's infamous comment that the call from a certain doctor had already been "debunked", but that he would look into it. Pretty neat trick to "debunk" something BEFORE you look into it, imo. Perhaps Dormer found a way to side-step the time/space continuum.

 

[deedee21]

Let us not forget Dormer's infamous comment that the call from a certain doctor had already been "debunked", but that he would look into it. Pretty neat trick to "debunk" something BEFORE you look into it, imo. Perhaps Dormer found a way to side-step the time/space continuum.

He was also able to give SG cause of death before an autopsy was perfomed.

 

[fred&edna]

This article has 2000. But you may want also to google "Crime Statistics NYC 1999" and the years before to compare to earlier times (pre-2000)
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/analysis_and_planning/historical_nyc_crime_data.shtml

For his work in form of books, you could look up Amazon. His books are still used for police officer training in the subject of procedures.

For how NYPD messed up the Rifkin-case, you could look up TruTV.

<modsnip>

No. I will not waste my time doing the research (pre 2000) that you should have provided.

It appears you believe yourself superior and thus have no responsibility to link proof to your claims.

The only thing you are capable of carrying is the sound of your own hollow voice.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

When I have worn tight jeans the only way I could remove them was to sit down and then peel them off. I can't imagine her doing that in all that muck

Imagine getting off wet tight jeans?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Why is that you feel the need to patronize other posters over and over again?

When I say, the sky is blue ... someone asks for a link.

When I say, nobody can move with almost light speed (and I talk physics here, not any literary metapher) ... someone asks for a link.

When I say, things fall down, not up ... someone asks for a link

And since those are always the same someone's and since if it is after I respond and bring links as far as they are still available after all the time this case is already on, it is always the same person jumping on me "you", I tend to take those people not too serious anymore.
For an example, everybody knows, it is impossible that a suspect moves with 93,000 miles plus for example to make use of Einstein's formula of time dilatation to widen his time window. Still, when I mention that, I got jumped at. So, please, tell me, why do you jump me, when I was attacked in the first place. And yes, I find the "give me links, I don't trust you that the sky is blue" and "give me links to Gerberth's books because I don't trust you" a little offensive. Especially when it is about things, one could easily look up before riding the next attack.
And when it comes to your pattern of jumping me in those situations, every time, over and over again as second line attacker, only because I don't share all of your believes about the case ... you try to make it personal. Fine by me, but when I respond to your little back stab attacks, you are the one who reports me. So it's intentional trap setting what you intend. Now, I know, this post won't stay on for long, you will report it. But hey, in the meantime, every poster, also those who don't know the old history in this forum, will probably have the email version. So, shift it! Or get smarter and make your attacks at least interesting instead of annoying.

 

[Just K]

Please, this is the Michael Pak thread....the history of the NYPD deserves another thread. There is a thread, buried in this forum, where links to the innumerable arrests, charges, judgements and convictions re: NY LEOs already exits.

 

[Peter Brendt]

No. I will not waste my time doing the research (pre 2000) that you should have provided.

It appears you believe yourself superior and thus have no responsibility to link proof to your claims.

The only thing you are capable of carrying is the sound of your own hollow voice.

I am not responsible to provide the knowledge for you, you should already have had before talking about serial killers in the first place. If someone wants to appear good at something, someone has to do work and study that something first. Please, do some studying, learn about the players in this field, the killers, the cases and the methods, then we an talk.

Here are three (he has done more) works of Vernon Gerberth. You can even from the titles already see, he is a man of procedures (and in that area of expertise, he did great work):

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Science-University-Package-Investigation/dp/0849333032/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362760757&sr=8-1&keywords=Vernon+Gerberth"]Forensic Science University Package: Practical Homicide Investigation, Fourth Edition: Vernon J. Geberth: 9780849333033: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G61RZ1JKL.@@AMEPARAM@@51G61RZ1JKL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Related-Homicide-Death-Investigation-Investigations/dp/1439826552/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362760757&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Vernon+Gerberth"]Sex-Related Homicide and Death Investigation: Practical and Clinical Perspectives, Second Edition (Practical Aspects of Criminal & Forensic Investigations): Vernon J. Geberth: 9781439826553: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51jbHdFCTWL.@@AMEPARAM@@51jbHdFCTWL[/ame]

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Homicide-Investigation-Checklist-Investigations/dp/1466591889/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1362760757&sr=8-2-spell&keywords=Vernon+Gerberth"]Practical Homicide Investigation Checklist and Field Guide (Practical Aspects of Criminal & Forensic Investigations): Vernon J. Geberth: 9781466591882: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510hNg7a0-L.@@AMEPARAM@@510hNg7a0-L[/ame]

When it comes to serial killers, the most famous ones in Gerberth's time were probably ...

- Joel Rifkin
One of his victims was found, cocaine in her system, but no plastic wraps or anything in her digestive tract. Which still didn't prevent the ME from writing, she was a drug mule and a bag burst causing an overdose. And NYPD from swallowing it.

- Rodney Alcala
Now, that was admittedly one of the harder cases, Gerberth had nothing to do with it directly, so all is left was the general inability of NYPD to connect the dots. Which in this case would also apply to LAPD. Basically, Alcala was never actively hunt.

- David Berkowitz
At this time, Gerberth was still young, too low on the totem pole for big decisions. He was just one of those many who were there, knew, the killer had parked in front of a hydrant, knew his plates and still didn't call over a jurisdiction border (a detective did later and the guy of the other PD was like "nice you call, expected you earlier, you know, the Son of Sam lives here?".

For your convenience, I have all three cases on my website.

On a personal side note: You call me arrogant and so on ... but the reality is, some of your posts make sometimes it hard to display an equal degree of lack of knowledge or logic. So don't yell at those, who don't appear as inept, try to raise the level please. And I know, this will get mod-snipped again because I respond to an attack, which is not allowed here, only the attack per se is free.

 

[Peter Brendt]

Now I forgot a link ...

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/crime_statistics/cscity.pdf

If you scroll down to "Historical Perspective", you can see, that murder now is at year to date 57, but was in 1990 (well in Gerberth's time) 81% higher. And since this is only Jan 1st till Feb 18th, we can imagine the rest of the year. Also 1993 was still 78% higher. And so on and so on.

 

[Vivalor]

Okay why was my post that actually had to do with MP and was not mean to anyone deleted? Yet...Peter gets to go off on rants and belittle others?

 

[Peter Brendt]

Okay why was my post that actually had to do with MP and was not mean to anyone deleted? Yet...Peter gets to go off on rants and belittle others?

No idea, why your post was deleted. And also no idea, why linking books of a person, someone led as "opinion witness" in the field is now called ranting. Unless of cause, it's not ranting but only the anger of some that their theories are not only physically impossible but also called that ...

 

[Vivalor]

No idea, why your post was deleted. And also no idea, why linking books of a person, someone led as "opinion witness" in the field is now called ranting. Unless of cause, it's not ranting but only the anger of some that their theories are not only physically impossible but also called that ...

But the thing is that these theories you say that are physically impossible can in fact be very possible. We all don't have the exact times. GC could be mistaken. I've heard the cops arrived at 5:54, 6:15, 6:20, and at 6:40. All the times don't add up and people are just making times up to what they think fits. So until we have the facts and see it on a police report the exact time, it is impossible to say we know what time LE really arrived, how long it took GC to get to the gate, and when MP really left.
And there is a two ways to get in and out of the OB or so I keep reading. Then I read that there is only one way.
The truth is that there are no facts in this case other then SG was scared for her life and called 911. SG was found dead. She ran from MP and we don't even know for sure is she actually ran from GC or if he just didn't let her in.
I keep reading and reading and reading. I keep googleing everything I can. And each day it is a different story. So it is impossible to say what is possible and what is impossible when it comes to times and what witness say. Not only that but witness such as GC are the worst people to rely on not because he is a liar but because what people sometimes think is not so. He very well could be mistaken.

 

[Peter Brendt]

But the thing is that these theories you say that are physically impossible can in fact be very possible. We all don't have the exact times. GC could be mistaken. I've heard the cops arrived at 5:54, 6:15, 6:20, and at 6:40. All the times don't add up and people are just making times up to what they think fits. So until we have the facts and see it on a police report the exact time, it is impossible to say we know what time LE really arrived, how long it took GC to get to the gate, and when MP really left.
And there is a two ways to get in and out of the OB or so I keep reading. Then I read that there is only one way.
The truth is that there are no facts in this case other then SG was scared for her life and called 911. SG was found dead. She ran from MP and we don't even know for sure is she actually ran from GC or if he just didn't let her in.
I keep reading and reading and reading. I keep googleing everything I can. And each day it is a different story. So it is impossible to say what is possible and what is impossible when it comes to times and what witness say. Not only that but witness such as GC are the worst people to rely on not because he is a liar but because what people sometimes think is not so. He very well could be mistaken.

In fact, it is irrelevant when the police arrived, at least for that question. The only relevant time is, when GC arrived at the gate. Which can't be more than maybe five minutes (and this is already estimated generously for a 30msecond way) later than his talk to MP. And you can only get this out of the way by assuming, GC was wrong in everything. And of course, BB as well, because she saw SG after GC ... so, no way. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

 

[NoviceSleuth]

In fact, it is irrelevant when the police arrived, at least for that question. The only relevant time is, when GC arrived at the gate. Which can't be more than maybe five minutes (and this is already estimated generously for a 30msecond way) later than his talk to MP. And you can only get this out of the way by assuming, GC was wrong in everything. And of course, BB as well, because she saw SG after GC ... so, no way. The rest is just smoke and mirrors.

I don't believe that GC made it to the gate in five minutes or that he or BB were lying about the times they gave. They were their best recollections of the events.

GC was in the bathroom shaving when SG pounded on his door and he surely went to the door directly and immediately, etc... Fast forward to him talking with MP and MP taking off after SG.

You generously say the longest it would take GC to get to the gate would be 5 minutes (a 30 sec. walk usually). But GC was by the road when he was talking with MP. After watching MP leave, he had to walk back to his house, up the deck stairs and, depending where his bathroom/bedroom was located, up another flight of stairs. He is in his seventies and not a young man.

Before SG arrived, GC wasn't shaving all dressed and ready to go out, so he had to get his clothes, dress, put on shoes, etc. By now his wife was probably up. He had to take the time to let her know what was going on. Or if she was a sound sleeper, he had to wake her up and warn her that there was a woman running about the neighborhood knocking on doors. He also had to explain the situation and tell her he was leaving the house going to the gate to wait for LE to come.

I don't believe GC went straight to the gate after talking to MP without first doing all above. Especially, he would not just leave without talking to his wife first.:moo:

 

[Peter Brendt]

I don't believe that GC made it to the gate in five minutes or that he or BB were lying about the times they gave. They were their best recollections of the events.

GC was in the bathroom shaving when SG pounded on his door and he surely went to the door directly and immediately, etc... Fast forward to him talking with MP and MP taking off after SG.

You generously say the longest it would take GC to get to the gate would be 5 minutes (a 30 sec. walk usually). But GC was by the road when he was talking with MP. After watching MP leave, he had to walk back to his house, up the deck stairs and, depending where his bathroom/bedroom was located, up another flight of stairs. He is in his seventies and not a young man.

Before SG arrived, GC wasn't shaving all dressed and ready to go out, so he had to get his clothes, dress, put on shoes, etc. By now his wife was probably up. He had to take the time to let her know what was going on. Or if she was a sound sleeper, he had to wake her up and warn her that there was a woman running about the neighborhood knocking on doors. He also had to explain the situation and tell her he was leaving the house going to the gate to wait for LE to come.

I don't believe GC went straight to the gate after talking to MP without first doing all above. Especially, he would not just leave without talking to his wife first.:moo:

He may has visited also his bank, discussed his 401, pilgrimaged to Satiago de Composto and whatnot. Because he hadn't just called the police and told them, he waits at the gate to let them in.<modsnip>

 

[NoviceSleuth]

He may has visited also his bank, discussed his 401, pilgrimaged to Satiago de Composto and whatnot. Because he hadn't just called the police and told them, he waits at the gate to let them in. So, feel free to believe, even it's against all logic and normal behavior.

Seriously, you believe GC went straight to the gate after MP left?

I think it would be more normal for a person to behave and do as I mentioned above. After all he was so close to the gate. At least, wouldn't it be logical to be concerned for his wife's safety and warn her? At that time no one really knew what was going on in the neighborhood.

 

[Peter Brendt]

He may has visited also his bank, discussed his 401, pilgrimaged to Satiago de Composto and whatnot. Because he hadn't just called the police and told them, he waits at the gate to let them in. So, feel free to believe, even it's against all logic and normal behavior.

Seriously, you believe GC went straight to the gate after MP left?

I think it would be more normal for a person to behave and do as I mentioned above. After all he was so close to the gate. At least, wouldn't it be logical to be concerned for his wife's safety and warn her? At that time no one really knew what was going on in the neighborhood.

I beleive, GC did what every normal person did. He grabbed his clothes and went over to the gate. By all means, he had estimated the situation as serious enough to call 911 in the first place. So, saying his wife what is going on, grabbing more clothes (he had obviously some on when he went out to talk with MP), generously estimated 5 minutes, but most likely less. I don't know how yoiu handle things, but if I estiamte a situation serious enough to call the police, I wait for them to arrive and hope, they do it pronto.

 

[nugzter]

Seriously, you believe GC went straight to the gate after MP left?

I think it would be more normal for a person to behave and do as I mentioned above. After all he was so close to the gate. At least, wouldn't it be logical to be concerned for his wife's safety and warn her? At that time no one really knew what was going on in the neighborhood.

What I know about gated communities is limited to personal experience, but at the community my parents live in, the gates are controlled by a garage door opener set to a frequency and a number pad with a code. All emergency responders have that code to get in the gate. To get out of the gate, there is a sensor that detects your car and automatically opens the gate to get out.
So who&#8217;s to say he even had to go to the gate at all.
Do any of the OB locals know the set up of the gate to shed some light on this subject?