POLL ADDED Connect The Dots-Working theories thread #2

[cypress]

I tend to think Houze is sitting on something major, and he's letting LE, TY, DY, and KH tell their side.

The inconsistencies are already showing and in a major way, and I'm not talking about Terri's. For instance, Desiree vehemently asserted Terri couldn't account for her whereabouts on June 4. We know from Terri's e-mails on June 5 that Terri was accounting for her whereabouts, and not only that, but LE appears to have partially verified Terri's version of events.

Another example is J leaving Kaine and Terri's to live with his father. Witnesses went before the Grand Jury testifying about Terri being upset in the months before Kyron's disappearance, saying that Terri told them Kaine was forcing J to move out. Kaine says nah, that's not how it happened, he fought with his mom a lot. J's father says J moved out because J butted heads with Kaine, supporting Terri's version of events.

Then there was Kyron crying when he had to go home to mean 'ole Terri, the inference clear to everyone watching at home, but then we found out that Kyron actually cried when he had to visit Desiree, and Desiree and Kaine admitted Kyron's been having difficulty transitioning.

IMHO, some of what has been used to convict Terri of this crime, at least in the court of public opinion, has proved untrue.

I wonder what other pieces of the puzzle used to convict Terri are untrue or are exaggerated.

 

[Calliope]

Bringing this to the theory thread (hope you don't mind, Kat )

And, remember Kyron's friend who said he saw Kyron after TH left, and was, IMHO, kinda blown off? Isn't he the one that said he saw "the white truck"? At the time, I thought that phrasing was very strange.

He didn't say he saw "Mrs. Horman's truck," "Kyron's mom's truck", "kyron's truck", etc. Nope. He said he saw "THE white truck." Did he see or unconsciously notice something that was different or weird but couldn't quite articulate it (AKA put his finger on it in a kid kind of way, not expressing self well tonight, arrrgh).

The longer this goes on, the more pieces are mounting up that to me indicate a pedophile.

And, truthfully, I don't see TH, DD, or her cadre of friends really capable of planning and staging an almost "to the minute" Mission Impossible/James Bond plot. As I'd theorized before, I could see one scenario where TH accidentally hits Kyron with the truck when he runs back out as she's gunning it, he's killed, she's been drinking, and panics. Slim chance, but that's one scenario. Then calls DD to help. But is a cop's daughter dumb enough to then start helping with toting and burying a kid's body? I doubt it.

Respectfully snipped / bbm

I agree.

I've wondered for some time now if Terri put Kyron at risk by her actions or acquaintances... and perhaps she doesn't know what she knows.

Given her obvious lack of judgement (or at the very least, the inability to determine what is socially appropriate behavior) or her strange response to high levels of stress as we've seen recently, I do have to consider that she did something very stupid and risky and may have unintentionally brought a Very Bad Person into her and the children's lives. It may not be that this person ever met Kyron before, I don't know.

IMO, she is a perfect target for a pedophile. SAHM with small kids, alone (and apparently lonely) in a rural setting, teacher, gullible and naive as hell when it comes to protecting their privacy and security, seems to have a bad habit of telling intimate details about herself (and her kids?) to total strangers, very needy and in need of contact and affirmation.

And contrary to what most people seem to think of her here, to me she comes off as a very submissive person who pretty much does what she's told and seeks to please everybody. To what degree, I don't know, but I have my suspicions. She certainly doesn't strike me as ice-water-in-the-veins, 'mastermind', take-control type at all.

We know by now that Terri is very prolific on the internet. Who knows who she may have had contact with, someone with less than honorable intentions? I can't put this theory behind me --- that Terri allowed someone to get close to her who had something in mind besides a simple online friendship, and through Terri, Kyron was targeted.

 

[SoCalSleuth]

I think LE knows what happened and the general vicinity in which it happened. They just don't know where Kyron ended up. I've said it many times before that even grid searches are not foolproof. Chandra Levy is but one example.

 

[RockyMtnLady]

We know by now that Terri is very prolific on the internet. Who knows who she may have had contact with, someone with less than honorable intentions? I can't put this theory behind me --- that Terri allowed someone to get close to her who had something in mind besides a simple online friendship, and through Terri, Kyron was targeted.

That definitely makes sense.

It seems to me that Terri is the sort of person who likes the dramatic, likes spinning tales and may not have enough filters on what she says and what is said to her. So, I could see this happening. And, it makes sense with the theory that "there's no reason to believe anything other than Kyron is alive".
Maybe LE has some reason to believe that there's someone else involved (like a pedophile) who has Kyron.

So then -
- Could Terri have known early in the day that something was up and tried to find Kyron (resulting in driving around for hours and pulling in DeDe) - or -
- Do you think Terri didn't know anything was up until Kyron didn't get off the bus?

 

[Donjeta]

Darn it my sink line was plugged and the plumber showed here at 10:50 so I missed the whole PC!

Anyway, I posted this over on the possibility of Kyron being alive thread, but I really think it should go here. This is my new theory on what might make sense of this whole mess. We can't figure out why her friends would help, etc.



I firmly believe now that TH was involved with Kyron's disappearance. But I'm still not sure she harmed him. So until there is evidence that she has, this idea came to me,
maybe someone else has put it out there already, if so forgive the repetition.

What if TH knew that divorce was imminent? After all, we certainly know that SHE wasn't happy in that marriage. What if her taking Kyron had nothing to do with wanting to hurt KH, but everything about her not wanting to give up Kyron.?
She raised him since he was 2 years old, she was more his mother than his stepmother, and instilled in him all her wants for a son considered as hers. And from what everyone is saying, from husband(s) to friends to family, she was a good mother. One source earlier on was saying how much she loved Kyron and how much Kyron loved her. (I think it was someone from the PTA or another classmate's mother. ) Would she try to make him "disappear" so that they could eventually reunite, relocated far away somewhere once the divorce was over. Canada perhaps? Is that possibly what DY is referring to as "stashed" him somewhere? I could see how and why a friend would help her do something like this waaaaaaay more than I could see how and why a friend would help her murder her 7 year old kid; especially if, true or not, TH was telling those friends tales about KH and their home life being miserable, etc. like she allegedly told the landscaper.

According to sources, Terri Horman had talked to the landscaper about being in a bad marriage and had claimed that Kaine had "hurt" her emotionally.

http://www.kgw.com/home/Hormanprobelatest-97771724.html


Just thinking that although this sounds a like a whacko plan, it actually makes it all make sense. It explains the MFHP. She wanted to keep Kyron, but not Kaine, in a divorce Kaine would have custody. It explains the abduction and hiding of Kyron. It explains her friends wanting to help. It explains DY saying she believes Kyron is "stashed". It explains why she wanted everyone to believe Kyron was abducted by the MMC.

What am I missing?

I love this theory because it could still have a happy ending but IMO she and her accomplices should have realized by now that her plan is not going to work. Kyron and Terri have got enough coverage to make it very difficult for them to find somewhere to for Kyron to resurface and live with Terri, and to make matters worse she's even lost all contact with her daughter over this. She's in a lose-lose situation.

So what do they do now? Return Kyron home and take the risk that he talks and says where he's been and what happened? Let him continue living with the accomplices indefinitely, under an assumed name, homeschooled and protected from having friends until brainwashed, or something? Kill him to get rid of evidence?

 

[CapsDeej]

I find it difficult to believe Terri managed to find another person, perhaps more than one other person, willing to help her abduct, harm, and/or cover up harming Kyron. Harming a child is a different breed of criminal, IMHO.

I find it difficult to believe LE has a wealth of evidence against Terri and yet they are just now revealing there was someone else in the truck with Terri and LE, in all likelihood, needs help identifying this person.

I find it difficult to believe LE has a wealth of evidence against Terri and yet they are releasing another questionnaire requesting information from the general public about Terri's whereabouts two months ago, this time also requesting information about the whereabouts of Dede Spicher.

BBM

Maybe the 2nd person didn't help abduct, harm, etc. Kyron. Maybe the 2nd was an unwitting accomplice (until putting it together at a later date).

Theory:

What if Terri didn't hand Kyron off to anyone? What if it went down something like this:

08:15 to 08:45 - attended science fair, shot a couple of pics, covertly (amid the chaos) removed Kyron from the school (perhaps via side door and access road).

08:45 to 09:00 - driving to the 1st FM. Investigators are requesting eyewitness to the truck in the parking lot around 9am. Heads into FM.

09:12 - timestamped receipt from 1st FM. If she didn't find the meds for K at this FM and decided to head to another, why does she have a receipt from this store? What did she buy if not meds? I'd love to see what was on that receipt. Figure she was back to the truck and on her way by 09:20 (just a guess).

Here's where things get more odd...

10:00 - Police are requesting eyewitness to her truck at the 2nd FM at 10am. So what happened between 09:30 and 10:00? More importantly why no receipt from the 2nd FM? She needed meds for K right? Did she never get them? What did she purchase at the 1st FM? Maybe is was nothing important. Maybe it was something to subdue Kyron? She could have medicated him, while waiting for him to fall asleep in the back of the truck, maybe she called someone and asked if they could watch K for a short time because she was cranky and needed to get the science fair project or some other completely believable, harmless excuse. So maybe she handed off K instead of Kyron. Maybe she met them in the parking lot at the 2nd FM? Or maybe she met them somewhere else. But if she never entered the 2nd FM which is possible because there's no receipt from the 2nd FM why did she even go there presumably around 10:00?

10:15 to 11:30 - police are asking who may have seen the truck in an area including a stretch of Skyline Blvd, Germantown Rd and Highway 30. DeDe was working within this area I believe. Maybe she even met someone at her own home, and left baby K there with them while she did whatever it was that she did.

By 11:20 Terri states she's at the gym (albeit not confirmed by LE that I've seen). But maybe between 10:15 and 11:20/11:30 she's taken care of her 'business' sans baby K and has retrieved her from whomever she handed her off to and now she's off to the gym.

I think its plausible that someone could have watched baby K for a short time under the assumption that Terri had an appointment, an emergency or something. Maybe this person didn't put 2 and 2 together immediately at the time of Kyron's disappearance - certainly if Terri were your friend you wouldn't be thinking something so sinister right off the bat. Maybe by the time the 'accomplice' realized the importance of the event he/she was scared of the implications. Maybe he/she didn't want to believe what they were coming to realize. Maybe they did and talked to detectives once they realized. We just don't know.

The one thing I can't fit in in an extra person in the truck. Has the 2nd person in the truck been described? Maybe Terri, while at the science fair told Kyron to run out to the truck to get something or you have a Dr. appt - head out to the truck and I'll be right there...I want to let your teacher know when we'll be back. And whoever was in the truck waiting either made Kyron stay in the truck or just expected him to stay. Terri would then be seen leaving the school alone. I don't know if I buy the 2nd person scenario - it just doesn't feel right. Maybe she sent Kyron out and then she left and met him at the truck. Perhaps she then parked far away in the parking lot at the first FM so no one would see Kyron and baby K in the car or maybe just Kyron.

I've talked my self in circles now... LOL.

 

[SurfieTX]

BBM

Maybe the 2nd person didn't help abduct, harm, etc. Kyron. Maybe the 2nd was an unwitting accomplice (until putting it together at a later date).

Theory:

What if Terri didn't hand Kyron off to anyone? What if it went down something like this:

08:15 to 08:45 - attended science fair, shot a couple of pics, covertly (amid the chaos) removed Kyron from the school (perhaps via side door and access road).

08:45 to 09:00 - driving to the 1st FM. Investigators are requesting eyewitness to the truck in the parking lot around 9am. Heads into FM.

09:12 - timestamped receipt from 1st FM. If she didn't find the meds for K at this FM and decided to head to another, why does she have a receipt from this store? What did she buy if not meds? I'd love to see what was on that receipt. Figure she was back to the truck and on her way by 09:20 (just a guess).

Here's where things get more odd...

10:00 - Police are requesting eyewitness to her truck at the 2nd FM at 10am. So what happened between 09:30 and 10:00? More importantly why no receipt from the 2nd FM? She needed meds for K right? Did she never get them? What did she purchase at the 1st FM? Maybe is was nothing important. Maybe it was something to subdue Kyron? She could have medicated him, while waiting for him to fall asleep in the back of the truck, maybe she called someone and asked if they could watch K for a short time because she was cranky and needed to get the science fair project or some other completely believable, harmless excuse. So maybe she handed off K instead of Kyron. Maybe she met them in the parking lot at the 2nd FM? Or maybe she met them somewhere else. But if she never entered the 2nd FM which is possible because there's no receipt from the 2nd FM why did she even go there presumably around 10:00?

10:15 to 11:30 - police are asking who may have seen the truck in an area including a stretch of Skyline Blvd, Germantown Rd and Highway 30. DeDe was working within this area I believe. Maybe she even met someone at her own home, and left baby K there with them while she did whatever it was that she did.

By 11:20 Terri states she's at the gym (albeit not confirmed by LE that I've seen). But maybe between 10:15 and 11:20/11:30 she's taken care of her 'business' sans baby K and has retrieved her from whomever she handed her off to and now she's off to the gym.

I think its plausible that someone could have watched baby K for a short time under the assumption that Terri had an appointment, an emergency or something. Maybe this person didn't put 2 and 2 together immediately at the time of Kyron's disappearance - certainly if Terri were your friend you wouldn't be thinking something so sinister right off the bat. Maybe by the time the 'accomplice' realized the importance of the event he/she was scared of the implications. Maybe he/she didn't want to believe what they were coming to realize. Maybe they did and talked to detectives once they realized. We just don't know.

The one thing I can't fit in in an extra person in the truck. Has the 2nd person in the truck been described? Maybe Terri, while at the science fair told Kyron to run out to the truck to get something or you have a Dr. appt - head out to the truck and I'll be right there...I want to let your teacher know when we'll be back. And whoever was in the truck waiting either made Kyron stay in the truck or just expected him to stay. Terri would then be seen leaving the school alone. I don't know if I buy the 2nd person scenario - it just doesn't feel right. Maybe she sent Kyron out and then she left and met him at the truck. Perhaps she then parked far away in the parking lot at the first FM so no one would see Kyron and baby K in the car or maybe just Kyron.

I've talked my self in circles now... LOL.

It's apparent to me that at some point she stopped in at Starbucks based on them being at the GJ. So, I'm thinking someone (probably totally innocent) picked up DeDe and dropped her off at Starbucks to meet Terri. Or someone dropped DeDe off at one of the FM's to meet Terri. I'm leaning toward the Starbucks though because they were subpoenaed.

 

[passionflower]

Maybe this is O/T but I keep thinking of Huckaby murdering her neighbor child Sandra Cantu.
Drugging up child and doing sexual molestation.
Could the trigger between this small group of people of been to use Kyron
while drugged and they had to drug him more and more? (KH seizures, leaving rooms,acting odd says TH)
Sexting to a landscaper and an old buddy of your husband is just not normal to me.
TH was known to drink allot also.
Where did she meet her men? Did some of her guys like little boys?
Was Kyron ready to tell on TH and friends?
Just my mind going in circles..............

 

[Billylee]

I love this theory because it could still have a happy ending but IMO she and her accomplices should have realized by now that her plan is not going to work. Kyron and Terri have got enough coverage to make it very difficult for them to find somewhere to for Kyron to resurface and live with Terri, and to make matters worse she's even lost all contact with her daughter over this. She's in a lose-lose situation.

So what do they do now? Return Kyron home and take the risk that he talks and says where he's been and what happened? Let him continue living with the accomplices indefinitely, under an assumed name, homeschooled and protected from having friends until brainwashed, or something? Kill him to get rid of evidence?

Yes, it's just a theory when I try to make EVERYTHING that's happened make sense. The ending of course is NOT what TH would have expected. She expected that LE would be looking for the mysterious male chaperon. Having been lauded as such a good Mom, she figured NO ONE would look at her. So she absolutely has no idea what to do now, other than confide in an attorney, because her plan failed miserably.

Someone suggested that she may have placed Kyron in an organization where they hide abused kids or spouses. I think that would fit this theory too. I think her attorney is simply waiting until she's actually charged with something (if that ever happens) and then will come forward with whatever her side of the story is. The one thing I can't make sense of anywhere, at all is the sexting issue. WTH was that all about? Even if she was having an affair with this guy before Kaine left, what horrid timing. Unless she was having an affair with MC before KH left and those pictures were old. ( I gotta go check that out.) Someone said it's because she's a narcissist, but I think a narcissist would be having one heck of a time being as quiet as she is. JMO

 

[passionflower]

It's apparent to me that at some point she stopped in at Starbucks based on them being at the GJ. So, I'm thinking someone (probably totally innocent) picked up DeDe and dropped her off at Starbucks to meet Terri. Or someone dropped DeDe off at one of the FM's to meet Terri. I'm leaning toward the Starbucks though because they were subpoenaed.

Like in Trenton's case mom had him at 1 stop at Wendy's and next stop soon after no baby............girl that waited on her thought that was odd back when she testified, IIRC

 

[BeanE]

I finally am off the fence, and I finally have a theory.

I now believe that Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance. I also believe she had an accomplice, although I'm not sure it was Dede.

In fact, I'm sure Terri did this, and I'm sure she had an accomplice, and I'm pretty sure I know why she had an accomplice.

I've said over and over that Terri could not take a chance on being seen with Kyron leaving the school. It's too high risk, because all it would have taken was one person to see her with Kyron, and the whole thing would be blown. There is just no way she would let her whole plan be blown by one person who just happened to see her and Kyron together.

Terri wasn't seen leaving the school with Kyron. That's important.

Kyron was never seen leaving the school at all. That's important too.

So if we put all that together with the info from LE yesterday, we can see how she did it (and see why she needed an accomplice). She figured out how to get her and Kyron from the school, separately, to the truck, so they wouldn't be seen together.

Terri parked in the south side parking lot when she got to school with the kids, and she went into the school with them.

Someone else moved the truck to one of the two locations. Either Terri or Kyron walked to that location alone. The truck was driven by the mystery person to the second location, where either Terri or Kyron walked to the truck alone. You see? This is why neither of them was seen leaving with the other. They didn't leave with each other. Terri made sure of it.

I think it's likely that Terri was in a quick disguise - hair tucked in a ball cap, threw on a big bulky jacket, put baby K in a duffel bag and slung it on her back.

I also think the picture taking of Kyron was deliberate, and that it was deliberate that he was in the distinctive big black CSI tshirt. I think she likely had him change to a completely different shirt before leaving the school - a tighter fitting, lighter color, no-logo shirt. It made him less noticeable when he was walking to the truck.

The DA said they're looking for people who were parked along either of those two locations (as well as people who were parked in the south side parking lot). I think LE has figured out how Terri pulled this off. They're taking a shot at finding someone who 1) saw Terri park the truck in the south side lot, 2) saw someone else drive the truck away from the south side lot, 3) saw Kyron (or a child who could have been Kyron) walk to the truck in one location, and 4) saw Terri (or an adult - Terri in disguise) walk to the truck in the other location, 5) they also need to confirm that whoever drove the truck out of the south side lot is the same person as the one who was waiting at each of the two locations.

Fred Meyers was specifically to get at least one receipt for an alibi.

I'm not convinced Dede is the accomplice. I think it would more likely be a male accomplice, because I think Terri uses sexual seduction as a way to manipulate men into doing what she wants them to do. But... it could have been Dede. That's all I'll say about that.

I think Kyron is alive. I think at least one more person has to be involved, and he was handed off to that person after the Fred Meyer trip. I think that's why LE is looking for people who saw Terri and/or the truck on those roads (Germantown, Old Germantown, etc.). I think that area is where LE has reason to believe the hand-off took place.

If we find out a man is involved, I'll be more apt to believe that Kyron was killed. I just can't envision, if the accomplice is Dede, a woman, that they would kill Kyron together. Maybe it's just my own hope keeping me thinking that. Or maybe I just have this "if you love me, you'll help me do this" thing in my head as the only way she'd kill Kyron with someone else. I dunno.

Where is Kyron?

 

[SurfieTX]

I know I sound like a broken record, but I keep going back to the Starbucks. What time did she stop there? Why was it never mentioned before the GJ? Something had to happen there - hand off, meeting with accomplice, something.

 

[BeanE]

I know I sound like a broken record, but I keep going back to the Starbucks. What time did she stop there? Why was it never mentioned before the GJ? Something had to happen there - hand off, meeting with accomplice, something.

Pick up a quick coffee to get a time-stamped receipt.

 

[SurfieTX]

Pick up a quick coffee to get a time-stamped receipt.

But why have the Starbucks people at the GJ? They didn't subpoena the FM people, did they - that we know of?

 

[Michael25]

Someone else moved the truck to one of the two locations. Either Terri or Kyron walked to that location alone. The truck was driven by the mystery person to the second location, where either Terri or Kyron walked to the truck alone. You see? This is why neither of them was seen leaving with the other. They didn't leave with each other. Terri made sure of it.

But why move the car when she could have just had an accomplice park his or her car at that second location after the outfit change from the CSI shirt? That way the hand-off is made then, w/o having any other persons tied to the white truck aside from TH herself. TH simply walks back to her car like she just finished up at the exhibit and put Kyron in the care of the school while a disguised Kyron (as you described) walks out to meet the accomplice at his or her car (a vehicle unknown to anyone).

 

[xin]

I finally am off the fence, and I finally have a theory.

I now believe that Terri was involved in Kyron's disappearance. I also believe she had an accomplice, although I'm not sure it was Dede.

...edit...

I also think the picture taking of Kyron was deliberate, and that it was deliberate that he was in the distinctive big black CSI tshirt. I think she likely had him change to a completely different shirt before leaving the school - a tighter fitting, lighter color, no-logo shirt. It made him less noticeable when he was walking to the truck.

...edit...
Where is Kyron?

Good work. I think the shirt and picture are v important too.

They seem to be gone now (or maybe updated), but as I recall the very first official missing person descriptions (can't recall if released by the FBI or local authorities) of Kyron cover the basics of physical appearance and the list of various items of clothing. BUT these first descriptions did not include the CSI t-shirt, skipped right over the t-shirt. I wonder if the specific t-shirt was *not recalled* by TH at the start until the photos of him made it obvious. It seems to me that TH would be the obvious person to provide the description of clothing Ky wore that day, but in the very first description, the t-shirt was not included. Just another odd thing that's been nagging at me.
LE must have dozens of these loose strings.

I wish I had your faith in Kyron still being alive.
And I still think the deliberate nature of the Freddy's trips is to NOT SHOW stuff, like what she (or her stand-in) was NOT buying (crime supplies). I would like to know her timeline and activities and calls for June 3. That will be riveting stuff methinks.

imo

 

[BeanE]

But why have the Starbucks people at the GJ? They didn't subpoena the FM people, did they - that we know of?

I bet she asked for a receipt, and I bet not many people do that when they buy a coffee at Starbucks.

I don't know of them calling the FM people yet. You don't have to ask for a receipt at a supermarket. You get one even if all you buy is a candy bar.

 

[BeanE]

But why move the car when she could have just had an accomplice park his or her car at that second location after the outfit change from the CSI shirt? That way the hand-off is made then, w/o having any other persons tied to the white truck aside from TH herself. TH simply walks back to her car like she just finished up at the exhibit and put Kyron in the care of the school while a disguised Kyron (as you described) walks out to meet the accomplice at his or her car (a vehicle unknown to anyone).

It helps to have confusion about who was driving the truck. Makes people unsure it's even her truck. A different person driving makes the truck out of context in people's minds. We are less likely to remember what is out of context. We think "Oh no, that couldn't have been Terri's truck. It wasn't Terri or Kaine driving it." We think we are mistaken, so we toss the info.

I believe this is why LE emphasized the truck, rather than any people. They just want to get people to remember that truck, all by itself. Then they'll bring them in and question them, and lead them to remembering any people around it or in it or near it, even if the person or people didn't look like what they would expect in context - Terri or Kaine or Kyron.

Also, it complicates things and makes them more time consuming if she has to have someone take her back to the truck. And her truck sitting there after 10 would be too noticeable. She had to get the truck out of there.

 

[SurfieTX]

It helps to have confusion about who was driving the truck. Makes people unsure it's even her truck. A different person driving makes the truck out of context in people's minds. We are less likely to remember what is out of context. We think "Oh no, that couldn't have been Terri's truck. It wasn't Terri or Kaine driving it." We think we are mistaken, so we toss the info.

I believe this is why LE emphasized the truck, rather than any people. They just want to get people to remember that truck, all by itself. Then they'll bring them in and question them, and lead them to remembering any people around it or in it or near it, even if the person or people didn't look like what they would expect in context - Terri or Kaine or Kyron.

Also, it complicates things and makes them more time consuming if she has to have someone take her back to the truck. And her truck sitting there after 10 would be too noticeable. She had to get the truck out of there.

Thanks just wasn't enough. Excellent!

 

[adh74]

But why have the Starbucks people at the GJ? They didn't subpoena the FM people, did they - that we know of?

Perhaps they saw Kyron in the back seat, peeking out from wherever they were trying to hide him?