Possible NEW Suspects In JonBenet Ramsey Case?

[AKWILKS]

"....but see once you put Wanda in the house feeding her the pineapple [only takes a few seconds] putting the Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase in the train room [would likely have been done when the Ramseys were out at the party], gathering dolls for her to take [likley done when Ramseys are at party], then you've got her all over the house getting those things together and spending that time in there while all of the Ramsey family is there as well. Not even remotely plausible at this point...."

AK = No I am speculating, based on known facts, that if they were the intruders, most of these activities would have been done during the period of the several hours when the Ramsey family was out at the party. I would also speculate that it is more likely the ransom note would have been written at this time as well.

I asked Boulder PD if Brian David Mitchell has already been cleared as a suspect in the JonBenet Ramsey case. They stated it is an open investigation and they cannot give out any information at all. I explained who I was, and that Doug Oswell and I were the source of the information that led the FBI to seek the DNA of Ted Kaczynski in the Tylenol Murders case, and that just because Mitchell was convicted it does not mean his DNA would be quickly put into CODIS, as there was a 300,000 person backlog, and it could be years before his DNA was entered.

I asked them if they were interested in the information about Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee developed by Doug Oswell, Zander Kite and AK Wilks, and they said "Yes", so I sent it to them. From that I draw a reasonable inference that BDM and WB have NOT been cleared as of yet. So they have it, what they do now is up to them. They were very polite to me, the response was amazingly quick, they seemed very interested and it was sent to a person who is in a key position.

So it is in their hands now.

Thanks to all who contributed thoughts, ideas and intelligent criticism.

 

[Whaleshark]

in order to learn the ramsey home, schedule, activities, intimate details, etc.... they would have had to be watching them for sometime then... with Brian Mitchell's insistence on Wanda writing in her journal every day, it seems there would be a good bit of detail about their plan to get JBR and the Ramsey family, just as in her other journal details. But as you said, there are no journal entries of Colorado, or anything about that attempt, or crime, or hint of any....

yes, i know she mentioned failed attempts...i do think they would have chosen someone to fit with their wife requirements though...

 

[vlpate]

Tezi - I agree, there are facts, and there is speculation. Though I like to think that I offer INFORMED speculation, based on known facts.

AK - you touted your qualifications and started out telling us how you were working on the Ted Kaczynski case - specifically how you strongly feel there is a connection between him, the tylenol killer, and the Zodiac killer. Curious, I googled you and I found the A&E chat board - and your theories. I can only surmise that you are a professional Baezer - you throw a lot of conjecture and coincidences against the forum walls and hope something sticks. The following, from your theory blog, convinced me, unequivocally, it would be a huge waste of my time to spend one more minute trying to show you the facts and the absurdity of Mitchel as the killer of JonBenet.

From the A&E boards - AKWilks

"Kaczynski later targeted certain groups of people - business executives, professors in technological subjects, computer workers. But within these broad groups, he would usually select a specific person whose name, street or city had a tie to a Nature, Wood or Trees theme, or he would make the references in fake return addresses. It would take several pages to list in detail all of the examples of the Kaczynski Nature, Trees and Wood mania, so I will just mention the highlights"
<snip>
"Now let us look at the sites that had Cyanide laced Tylenol in the Chicago area in 1982. The Kaczynski family home was in Lombard Illinois, the exact epicenter of the tampering sites. In this respect, keep in mind that a "grove" is a group of trees, a "field" can be of grass, plants or trees, "heights" are the high points of hills and mountains, "burg" is German for mountain, "Vail" is another town in Colorado associated with mountains, "Wells" bring forth water and "green" is a term for plants and the color associated with the environmental movement. In the Tylenol Murders, out of the thousands of retail outlets to pick from, the killer chose the Osco store in the WOODFIELD Mall in SchaumBURG, the Jewel store at the GROVE Mall in ELK GROVE Village, a store on WinFIELD Road in WinFIELD, a Jewel store in Arlington HEIGHTS on VAIL Street, a WalGREEN on WELLS Street in Chicago and the last discovered store on ButterFIELD Road in WHEATon. In the 1986 Cyanide Tylenol death of Diane Elsroth in the Bronxville (Yonkers), New York area, tampered bottles were placed in stores on CEDAR Street and PONDFIELD Road."
At least one other location was either not discovered or not disclosed publicly, that being where victim Mary McFarland purchased her Tylenol, but we known that she lived in ELMhurst."[/I]


Ak....In the US, most streets are named after numbers, landscapes, trees, a combination of landscapes (landscapes would involve mountains and streams), trees such as "Oakhill" is used often in residential areas.

After this stunning evidence, you move on to the Zodiac Killer....


THE ZODIAC KILLER CONNECTION

I have shown that Theodore Kaczynski was known by his criminal signature of using victims, streets, cities and other clues pertaining to themes of Nature, in particular Water, Mountains, Trees and (most of all) Wood. I have also shown that it seems the Tylenol Killer of 1982 (and probably 1986 as well) had a similar criminal signature, as he also targeted victims, streets, and stores with identical Nature themes of Water, Mountains, Trees and Wood. Knowing that Kaczynski is a suspect for being the Zodiac Killer, let us look at that case for a similar criminal signature.

Probable and definite Zodiac crimes took place at RIVERside, Blue Rock SPRINGS, LAKE Herman Road, LAKE Berryessa, South LAKE Tahoe.

Zodiac told cab driver Paul Stine to go to Washington and MAPLE street, it is MAPLE street Z refers to in his letter claiming credit for the murder and crime actually took place closest to CHERRY street.

SFPD Officer Richard Radetich, 6/19/70, possible Z victim, was murdered on Waller street, but a white American car is seen speeding away on nearby OAK street. (My personal favorite!)

Stuart Maher, 3/17/68, a possible Z victim, was shot in the back of the head in San Fransisco on PINE street.

Pat Tan, 4/19/70, possible Z victim, found hanging from a TREE on Mt. Tam.

Isobel Watson, 4/7/72, a possible Z victim, was stabbed in the Tamalpais Valley area on PINE HILL Road.

Yvonne Weber (13 years old) and Maureen Sterling (12 years old), 2/4/72, possible Z victims in Sonoma County, last seen alive at the REDWOOD Ice Rink.

Barbara Jane Perkins, 12/8/67, possible Z victim, a nurse who lived on Grant street in Berkeley, 1.4 miles from TJK residence on Regent street, found at Point Reyes National SEASHORE, head was "tucked against base of fallen TREE."

You don't suppose....could TK have been involved in....

 

[vlpate]

Why would an intruder wipe down the batteries? The flashlight, yes, to get rid of his prints. But why the batteries - he knows his prints aren't on the batteries. He can guess that Ramsey prints are on the batteries, or maybe the housekeeper's prints. I'm assuming of course that the flashlight belonged to the Rs and was already in the house.

By the way, my post was tongue in cheek. I was trying to point out it would be a frenzy of activity, futile and pointless activity for a pedophile intruder.

I firmly believe the killer lived at 755 15th ST, Boulder, Colorado, on December 25/26, 1996.

 

[vlpate]

I asked them if they were interested in the information about Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee developed by Doug Oswell, Zander Kite and AK Wilks, and they said "Yes", so I sent it to them. From that I draw a reasonable inference that BDM and WB have NOT been cleared as of yet. So they have it, what they do now is up to them. They were very polite to me, the response was amazingly quick, they seemed very interested and it was sent to a person who is in a key position.

So it is in their hands now.

Thanks to all who contributed thoughts, ideas and intelligent criticism.

The BPD would never, in a million years, be open again to the accusation they were not looking for "the real killer". Never.

 

[Agatha_C]

AK - you touted your qualifications and started out telling us how you were working on the Ted Kaczynski case - specifically how you strongly feel there is a connection between him, the tylenol killer, and the Zodiac killer. Curious, I googled you and I found the A&E chat board - and your theories. I can only surmise that you are a professional Baezer - you throw a lot of conjecture and coincidences against the forum walls and hope something sticks. The following, from your theory blog, convinced me, unequivocally, it would be a huge waste of my time to spend one more minute trying to show you the facts and the absurdity of Mitchel as the killer of JonBenet.

From the A&E boards - AKWilks

"Kaczynski later targeted certain groups of people - business executives, professors in technological subjects, computer workers. But within these broad groups, he would usually select a specific person whose name, street or city had a tie to a Nature, Wood or Trees theme, or he would make the references in fake return addresses. It would take several pages to list in detail all of the examples of the Kaczynski Nature, Trees and Wood mania, so I will just mention the highlights"
<snip>
"Now let us look at the sites that had Cyanide laced Tylenol in the Chicago area in 1982. The Kaczynski family home was in Lombard Illinois, the exact epicenter of the tampering sites. In this respect, keep in mind that a "grove" is a group of trees, a "field" can be of grass, plants or trees, "heights" are the high points of hills and mountains, "burg" is German for mountain, "Vail" is another town in Colorado associated with mountains, "Wells" bring forth water and "green" is a term for plants and the color associated with the environmental movement. In the Tylenol Murders, out of the thousands of retail outlets to pick from, the killer chose the Osco store in the WOODFIELD Mall in SchaumBURG, the Jewel store at the GROVE Mall in ELK GROVE Village, a store on WinFIELD Road in WinFIELD, a Jewel store in Arlington HEIGHTS on VAIL Street, a WalGREEN on WELLS Street in Chicago and the last discovered store on ButterFIELD Road in WHEATon. In the 1986 Cyanide Tylenol death of Diane Elsroth in the Bronxville (Yonkers), New York area, tampered bottles were placed in stores on CEDAR Street and PONDFIELD Road."
At least one other location was either not discovered or not disclosed publicly, that being where victim Mary McFarland purchased her Tylenol, but we known that she lived in ELMhurst."[/I]


Ak....In the US, most streets are named after numbers, landscapes, trees, a combination of landscapes (landscapes would involve mountains and streams), trees such as "Oakhill" is used often in residential areas.

After this stunning evidence, you move on to the Zodiac Killer....


THE ZODIAC KILLER CONNECTION

I have shown that Theodore Kaczynski was known by his criminal signature of using victims, streets, cities and other clues pertaining to themes of Nature, in particular Water, Mountains, Trees and (most of all) Wood. I have also shown that it seems the Tylenol Killer of 1982 (and probably 1986 as well) had a similar criminal signature, as he also targeted victims, streets, and stores with identical Nature themes of Water, Mountains, Trees and Wood. Knowing that Kaczynski is a suspect for being the Zodiac Killer, let us look at that case for a similar criminal signature.

Probable and definite Zodiac crimes took place at RIVERside, Blue Rock SPRINGS, LAKE Herman Road, LAKE Berryessa, South LAKE Tahoe.

Zodiac told cab driver Paul Stine to go to Washington and MAPLE street, it is MAPLE street Z refers to in his letter claiming credit for the murder and crime actually took place closest to CHERRY street.

SFPD Officer Richard Radetich, 6/19/70, possible Z victim, was murdered on Waller street, but a white American car is seen speeding away on nearby OAK street. (My personal favorite!)

Stuart Maher, 3/17/68, a possible Z victim, was shot in the back of the head in San Fransisco on PINE street.

Pat Tan, 4/19/70, possible Z victim, found hanging from a TREE on Mt. Tam.

Isobel Watson, 4/7/72, a possible Z victim, was stabbed in the Tamalpais Valley area on PINE HILL Road.

Yvonne Weber (13 years old) and Maureen Sterling (12 years old), 2/4/72, possible Z victims in Sonoma County, last seen alive at the REDWOOD Ice Rink.

Barbara Jane Perkins, 12/8/67, possible Z victim, a nurse who lived on Grant street in Berkeley, 1.4 miles from TJK residence on Regent street, found at Point Reyes National SEASHORE, head was "tucked against base of fallen TREE."

You don't suppose....could TK have been involved in....

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

I also did some searching..LOL... Sorry, but Nightmare on Elm Street, that was greatness..

 

[Agatha_C]

Agatha - You state all these are proven. Proven and not in dispute?

Uhmmmm, the palm print on the wine cellar door was sourced to MRL, JRs daughter.

AK - Can you give me a source or cite for this being proven?

The boots (HiTech) both BR and FWJ admitted to the grand jury that they each owned a pair.

AK - Source or cite?

The hair on the blanket was sourced to Patsy's arm, thats right it was an arm hair and not pubic.

AK - Source or cite please?

Also, I can't answer questions like "if the intruder came in through the unlocked door or used Patsy's missing outdoor key, why did he try to exit through the basement window?" Answer - I don't know. I am suggesting that there were multiple possible points of entry and exit for an intruder. Perhaps entry and exit was by the basement window. Perhaps entry was through the unlocked door or front via Patsy's key, and the scream, or things going wrong, or other factors we can't know, led to the basement as an exit point. Perhaps the sexual molestation was not planned.

One thing I discovered about criminals, most of them are not very bright. I did a burglary case once, the man was arrested outside the house. He had broken in but didn't take anything, even though there was money, jewelry and electronics available. I asked him, since you had already done the felony by breaking in, why did you not take anything? He didn't know. He just didn't feel like taking anything. Then why the heck did you break in? He didn't know, he just felt like it! No logic!

I could tell you more horrible stories about an intelligent and respected man in the community, yes sort of like a John Ramsey but not as rich, molested his daughter and ejaculated in a place where the evidence would be used against him. This man knew all about DNA. Did he secretly want to get caught? Did he get lost in the moment? He had no answer.

I could tell you a hundred stories were the actions of the criminal made no sense at all, no logic, no rationality.





AK,

Im back as promised, to do your research for you. Ive listed the sources below and all can be found at the prior link I gave you....

I dont care how stupid or insane a criminal is, if he can access an open door he's going too. I didnt ask you to explain how a criminal would think, I asked you to use your own common sense. If an intruder came in through an unlocked door, he would have left the same way...

You have these two nut jobs hanging out, digging around and playing house at the Ramsey's and yet they left nothing of themselves behind and took nothing of the Ramsey's with them, including their whole purpose for being there, Jonbenet....

If this case were Cinderella, then you'd be the Duke trying the glass slipper on the evil step sister.. No matter how hard you try, it doesnt fit.

After all of your listed years working with crimes and the above is the most horrible story you could share. As a Foster mother, I could trump that. I dont need a lesson on how sickos work. Most of you sick crimes are committed by very intelligent if not genius minds....

I respect your right to an opinion and the sharing of said opine. I wish you luck AK your going to need it here if misinformation is what you're going on...


August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview
(Burke and Hi-Tec Boots)

14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,
15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased
16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on
17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to
18 remember --
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. Maybe this will help your
21 recollection. They were shoes that were
22 purchased while he was shopping with you in
23 Atlanta.
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a fact?

0123
1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
2 a fact.
3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help
4 refresh your recollection as to whether he
5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on
6 them?
7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so
8 many shoes for him.
9 Q. And again, I will provide, I'll
10 say, I'll say this as a fact to you, that,
11 and maybe this will help refresh your
12 recollection, he thought that -- the shoes
13 were special because they had a compass on
14 them, his only exposure for the most part to
15 compasses had been in the plane and he kind
16 of liked the idea of being able to point
17 them different directions. Do you remember
18 him doing that with the shoes?
19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I
20 remember he had a compass thing like a
21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.
22 Q. You don't remember him having
23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on
24 them?
25 MR. WOOD: She will tell you that
0124
1 one more time. Go ahead and tell him, and
2 this will be the third time.
3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Does it
5 jog your memory to know that the shoes with
6 compasses were made by Hi-Tec?
7 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
8 as a fact?
9 MR. LEVIN: Yes. I am stating
10 that as a fact.
11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know
12 that.
13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this
14 as a fact. There are two people who have
15 provided us with information, including your
16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the
17 murder of your daughter.
18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that
19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec
20 shoes?
21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.
22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase
23 Hi-Tec?
24 MR. LEVIN: Yes.
25 MR. WOOD: When?

0125
1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give
2 you the source. I can tell you that I have
3 that information.
4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told
5 you.
6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to
7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney,
8 you are aware.
9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,
10 there is a difference between you saying that
11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke
12 telling you because Burke has been
13 interviewed by you all December of 1996,
14 January of 1997, June of 1998.
15 Are you saying that it is within
16 those interviews?
17 MR. LEVIN: No.
18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you,
19 he told somebody else you are stating as a
20 fact because I don't think you all have
21 talked to him other than those occasions,
22 have you?
23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't
24 want to get into grand jury information.
25 Okay?

0126
1 MR. WOOD: Okay.
2 MR. KANE: Fair enough?
3 MR. LEVIN: I am sorry, I should
4 have been more direct. I thought you would
5 understand --
6 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Fleet Junior also
7 says that he had Hi-Tec shoes.


2002-08-23: Ramsey evidence is explained - Hand, boot prints determined to be innocent occurrences

Ramsey evidence is explained Hand, boot prints determined to be innocent occurrences
By Charlie Brennan, Rocky Mountain News
August 23, 2002

BOULDER - Investigators have answered two vexing questions in the JonBenet Ramsey case that have long helped support the theory that an intruder killed her, according to sources close to the case. The answers, which have been known to investigators for some time but never publicly revealed, could be seen to weaken the intruder theory.

The two clues are:

-- A mysterious Hi-Tec boot print in the mold on the floor of the Ramseys' wine cellar near JonBenet's body has been linked by investigators to Burke, her brother, who was 9 at the time. It is believed to have been left there under circumstances unrelated to JonBenet's murder.

Burke, now 15, has repeatedly been cleared by authorities of any suspicion in the 1996 Christmas night slaying, and that has not changed.

-- A palm print on the door leading to that same wine cellar, long unidentified, is that of Melinda Ramsey, JonBenet's adult half-sister. She was in Georgia at the time of the murder.

"They were certainly some things that had to be answered, one way or the other, and we feel satisfied that they are both answered," said a source close to the case, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

L. Lin Wood, the attorney representing the Ramseys, who now live in Atlanta, doesn't debate the palm print findings. But he contends the police have not answered the Hi-Tec print mystery.


Transcript of “Crier Live”, August 26, 2002:
Catherine Crier
Bill Nimmo
Craig Silverman
Catherine Crier: Alright, you’ve got a handprint that’s apparently been around for a long time, apparently, it’s been identified to senior Ramsey, father Ramsey’s older daughter, why wasn’t this done a long time ago?

Craig Silverman: Apparently, they just didn’t make the connection. A palm print examiner looked at it and didn’t see the points of comparison, but when they looked at it again, it was obvious, apparently to all concerned, that it was John Ramsey’s oldest daughter’s handprint, and this is a point now conceded by Team Ramsey.

Catherine Crier: Ok, so that’s a done dinner there. A point they are not conceding though is that this shoe print belongs to Burke. Tell me about that.

Craig Silverman: That’s probably the most interesting aspect because for a while, it was a sensational piece of evidence. A shoeprint, what they considered to be an intruder, in fact, in their book, Death of Innocence, the Ramseys cited this as a major factor why this had to be an intruder. Now apparently, Boulder law enforcement is convinced this shoe belongs to Burke Ramsey. Still, team Ramsey denies that that’s the case. You wonder why Boulder law enforcement is so certain that it belongs to Burke Ramsey, and why the Ramseys are still denying it. It also begs the question, what happened to this hi-tec boot that belonged to Burke Ramsey? Under what circumstances did it disappear? It doesn’t appear that anybody has possession, and why are the Ramseys so emphatic in denying that this was Burke’s boot? It would seem that most parents, especially most mothers, would know what kind of shoes their child had.

Catherine Crier: Yeah, they’re denying vehemently, but as I read material the “sources” kept saying don’t worry, it was Burke’s boot, as if they’ve either seen pictures, ala the ugly shoes, or someone knew those boots were in his closet, because it certainly seems definitive on the part of the police. Why?

Craig Silverman: We don’t know the answer to that, but if there is a coverup, if somebody got rid of that hi-tec boot, then that could be very interesting. As you well know Judge, so many times criminals who get away with their crime mess up in the cover up stage of the event, and if they can show that somebody got rid of that hi-tec boot under suspicious circumstances, that’s a very incriminating piece of evidence.

Catherine Crier: Alright, Dr. Wecht, you’ve written a book on this, this has been something you’ve devoted an awful lot of time to, what do these two pieces of evidence tell you?

Dr. Wecht: Well, what I find fascinating about the footprint, and Craig will correct me if I’m wrong, I just know what I’ve read, is that the footprint was found in the wine cellar, where JonBenet’s body was found some seven hours after she was reported missing. That room, we’re told, had not been looked into because gee, nobody ever went there, and John Ramsey didn’t think of going there until about one o’clock in the afternoon. Well, if that be the case, not only a question the print now belonging to Burke, rather than an intruder, how did the print get in that room, if that’s the room then that nobody ever went into, then what was Burke doing in the room at anytime? That’s I think is very, very interesting. The handprint of Melinda on the wall, I think is also near the wine cellar, I don’t know what that means, everybody agrees that she was not there on the night that JonBenet met her tragic fate. But, that footprint is fascinating.

Catherine Crier: Let me ask you about this, because looking at the size of the Ramseys, looking at the pictures of this little boy, my first reaction was, he probably didn’t have a really big foot as a ten year old, and yet everybody was talking about this being the shoe print of an intruder. I would guess it’s a pretty small shoe size. But, does it strike anybody as odd that we’re talking about some intruder, murderer guy, and yet, this little bitty kid’s foot.

August 22, 2002
Carol McKinley, Fox News

"Unidentified arm hair belongs to Patsy"

Carol McKinnley on Fox news confirming investigators telling her the shoe print, palm print and unidentified hair are all solved.

shoe print is Burke's
palm print is melinda's
hair found on blanket is Patsy's. testing by mitochondrial dna prooves this.

 

[Jackalyn]

I have no idea who did it but something seems a bit odd to me - why did they never look at rivalries in the beauty pageant world? I have always wondered if it was a set up to get Jonbenet out of the competitions. Maybe far fetched, but surely a theory.

On the other hand she was in public a lot so probably easy for someone to target or focus on.

On the other hand:

"That room, we&#8217;re told, had not been looked into because gee, nobody ever went there, and John Ramsey didn&#8217;t think of going there until about one o&#8217;clock in the afternoon. Well, if that be the case, not only a question the print now belonging to Burke, rather than an intruder, how did the print get in that room, if that&#8217;s the room then that nobody ever went into, then what was Burke doing in the room at anytime?"

If you had a child missing would you not search everywhere even if you did have a ransom note? Wouldn't you just go through the house searching for clues somehow???? How would you just not think about going into a room in your own house to look?

Was Burke there when they found the body and what shoes was he wearing then? That would not mean that he was involved but if the Father shouted because he found the body would the whole family not come running?

 

[SunnieRN]

Miss Agatha, I am so happy that you have more patience than I do!! I wanted to address the issues, but couldn't muster the stamina. If Lin Wood agreeing to the fact that the handprint is Melindas isn't good for any person reading here, they need to start at square one.

Thanks for your awesome work, as always!! Your posts never disappoint!!!:great:

 

[vlpate]

even if I personally don't see a connection between the two cases (so far) I find your theory interesting,it's something new and I am glad you're doing something about it.it's not like the Boulder officials are doing anything anyway....who knows,maybe someday an outsider will do something to change the status of this case.

I agree with you, except for the part where theories are based on misinformation. Base the theory on facts and I'm all over it. Look how much attention Aphrodite Jones garnered and now there's even more muddled bull out there.

 

[tennison]

I really don't think Elizabeth and JonBenet were similar victims at all. Elizabeth seemed to be a very submissive girl, and that's why Brian wanted her as his "wife" because he knew she would do what he said and wouldn't try to escape. From what I have read about her, JonBenet was more outspoken. She kicked Patsy once, and even messed up the leaves the gardener had raked. I really don't think Brian would decide to kidnap JonBenet like he kidnapped Elizabeth because JonBenet would probably put up a big fight with that whole "wife" thing. Elizabeth may have been older than JonBenet, but their upbringings and demeanors were extremely different, and I don't think someone like Brian who was looking for a "wife" would be "attracted" to both of them.

Possibly the reason why JB was killed and ES wasnt.

 

[Agatha_C]

Heres something to ponder Folks....

If LW knew in 2000, when Patsy was interviewed by LE, that BR owned a pair of said shoes and was confirmed by his pal FWJ during the grand jury. Why then was he still denying it in 2002?

What is the importance of these shoes and why the need to distance from them? I mean, I have never before felt that the shoes were all that big of a deal. So many people milling around and the confusion that forever changed the crime scene.

If LE, never really thought the shoes to be all that big of a deal, even if it was BRs, why did LW and Rs feel the need to make it bigger than it had to be? LE even said that they believed the print to be BRs and had nothing to do with the murder of JBR.

Maybe they wanted it viewed as an intruder print, helping to confuse things even more. Or maybe its existence is far more ominous.

Heres another idea, just being thrown out... Could the 911 call have been made on the phone in the basement? Was it BR that was heard in the background as he came upon the scene? Did he walk in and see her wrapped in the blanket? Did he wear the shoes out of the house that morning? Did that print place BR at the scene? Are the Rs protecting BR or themselves from what BR knows? Hmmmmmmm

Vl,

I understand what your saying about letting her go as she has already left us. But something inside of me refuses to let the Rs forget, to let people forget. I derive a certain amount of satisfaction in that family knowing we are still out here and in our minds they are criminals. I say family and I mean all the players, those that were there that night and those that helped them by covering up, removing evidence, lying and all around keeping quite. They and they alone know what was really happening in that home and what it led too...

I get what you're saying and I wish to God, I could feel the same way...

 

[vlpate]

Vl,

I understand what your saying about letting her go as she has already left us. But something inside of me refuses to let the Rs forget, to let people forget. I derive a certain amount of satisfaction in that family knowing we are still out here and in our minds they are criminals. I say family and I mean all the players, those that were there that night and those that helped them by covering up, removing evidence, lying and all around keeping quite. They and they alone know what was really happening in that home and what it led too...

I get what you're saying and I wish to God, I could feel the same way...

Agatha - Sometimes I just assume everyone reads my mind and it articulates what my fingers neglect to explain correctly.

When I said "let her go", what I was thinking, and what I thought when the Mark Karr debacle started up, was how much all this must hurt her - how her parents abandoned her and have let this humiliation go on for so many years just to save their own a$$es. I can't believe, I don't want to believe that her resting in peace is dependent upon the truth of what happened that night. I've always prayed she has gone on.

I would love to see closure to this case. I would love someone be accountable - but MY opinion is that until either John or Burke confess, or tell what really happened, there will never be closure.

I feel SO strongly...and my opinion stems from many years of looking at every single player involved and not involved - all the evidence and depositions...that there will never be an arrest unless it is John or Burke Ramsey.

Do you know that Lin Wood sued the hell out of anyone who even hinted that Burke Ramsey was involved, and virtually all those lawsuits were settled out of court -- however, in 1997, if you googled JonBenet Ramsey, your search would render THOUSANDS of *advertiser censored* sites with references to JonBenet and NOT ONE lawsuit was ever brought upon any of those sites - they were, by all appearances, completely ignored. It was never about JonBenet, not ever, it was always about John, Patsy, and Burke Ramsey. The tip line in their book was to a number that didn't even work, and they never publicly corrected it.

They've never spoken out for abused, missing, or murdered children - there has never been a (legitimate), foundation started by them in her name. Even the name of their book, "The Death Of Innocense" meant THEIR innocense, not JonBenet's.

Make no mistake, I have prayed for justice for JonBenet since this story broke December 1996, but at some point I resolved myself to the belief that there will never be justice as long as the two people left continue their self-serving silence.

 

[vlpate]

If anyone is actually interested in the real facts and evidence in the Zodiac and Tylenol cases, the possible Kaczynski connection and why the FBI is now seeking a court order to get his DNA based on the information I gave them from my 3 year investigation - you can see my research essay on the Tylenol Murders here: http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=63 and on Zodiac here: http://unazod.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=96

I do not know who killed JonBenet. It may have been someone in the Ramsey family, as evidence points to that conclusion. But there is also evidence pointing to the possibility of an intruder. I think, as a child kidnapper, pedophile and home invader, Brian David Mitchell should be excluded or included as a suspect.

I have nothing else to add on the Ramsey case, and when I do, it will not be at this forum. Many of you seem to have your minds made up, and I do not like the atmosphere of mocking attacks created by one poster here. I have found over the years you don't waste time arguing with people who know nothing but think they know everything. Its like trying to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

The Boulder PD has all of the information gathered by myself, Douglas Oswell and Zander Kite, the ball is in their court now.

Don't let me stop you from posting your strong beliefs. I was not mocking you, 99% of my post was your own words. I just tried to show that coincidences are not facts....period.

I apologize if my opinion makes you want to leave....I will refrain from addressing you - please, carry on.

 

[Chrishope]

Well I am assuming there was no intruder and that the R's wiped the batteries in order not to show their fingerprints, or Burke's fingerprints. I think they wanted the flashlight to be found as the "blunt instrument", but they didn't want to be implicated. It was staged - the flashlight was staged.

I know where you're coming from. I was just hoping that AKWILKS would answer one question. Even if it was the M/B duo, one still needs to explain things.

 

[AKWILKS]

I mentioned in passing my that my information led the FBI to seek the DNA of Ted Kaczynski in the Tylenol case. vlpate quoted some of my work on that case, out of context and without the explanation that Kaczynski had a pattern of selecting targets with nature-tree-wood names in his Unabomber crimes.

<mod snip>

I will answer any legitimate question to the best of ability.

 

[Chrishope]

<modsnip> Can you give us the scenario for Burke Ramsey killing JonBenet?

How did that go?

A 9 year old boy gets his sister in the basement for a sex game? Then suffocates her? And fractures her skull?

When there is no prior evidence of sexual abuse or violence from Burke to JonBenet? But the day after Christmas he decides to rape and kill her?

The parents find out and decide to cover it up? This is what you believe right? So Patsy and/or John wrote the ransom note? Why then did they buy advertising space in the newspaper, and publish parts of the note to see if anybody recognized the writing?

Why did they agree - when they legally could have refused - to give handwriting samples, and blood, hair and saliva samples from Patsy, John and Burke?

Why did they agree to let Burke be interviewed without an attorney? Boy they were really confident he wouldn't leak anything about the big event!

Why did they let him go to school, when police and FBI said that a boy participating in such an event would likely tell friends, and that parents would not let him go to school for a term or two if they were dependent on his silence?

I won't attempt to anwer the BDI questions, as I've never believed BDI.

If the parents included the "$118,000" as a way to cast suspicion on an "insider", a current or former Access Graphics employee who knew of John's bonus, why then did they make the ransom note tell John to use his "southern" common sense, when he is from Michigan?

Good question. I agree, the use of "southern common sense" seems to negate the idea that it was someone close to JR. (See this is the point of asking these types of questions, it forces one to confront things that don't fit one's theory)

I can only hazard a guess that maybe the phrase was used within the family? Pointing to the housekeeper? Or maybe a joke amongst a close circle of friends? I have no evidence for this.

An excellent point.

Why is there an unknown palm print, not from the Ramsey's or any of their friends on the wine cellar door? Two unknown boot prints? An unknown pubic hair on the blanket? An unknown partial fingerprint on the ransom note? Scuff marks under the basement window?

The palm print may have been from someone invited into the house, either as a guest or to do some work. Do we know it wasn't from any of their friends?

I think others can address the pubic hair better than I can. I don't know enough details about it.

If it's a partial fingerprint, can we really say it's from someone unknown? The implication (I think) is that it's from a stranger. But unknown only means we don't know who it belongs to - because it can't be matched.

I'm not sure what is meant by scuff marks. Do you think there is credible evidence of someone coming in/out the window? Scuff marks on the wall could be old, and could be from when John came in the window when he locked himself out, several months prior to the murder.

Did you know police reported one of the doors to the house was unlocked that morning?

Did you know Patsy kept a key outside, and that key was missing?

Making it all the more unlikely that the window was the entry/exit point, and begging the question why was JBR taken down to the basement?

What did the Ramsey's do with the duct tape? The police took 800 items of evidence, but found no duct tape matching what was used on JonBenet. Where is it?

Two possible explanations. One, the tape - a very small piece, too small to effectively silence JBR- was pulled off some other object in the house (a picture, an American Girl doll ? ) Two, Police allowed Patsy's sister to take huge amounts of "stuff" out of the house. Who knows what she took? The missing roll of duct tape? Among other things? Things that should have been found, but are absent can't be proven to have been removed by Pam, but it's a pretty sensible explanation, don't you agree?

How do you explain three spots of male DNA, NOT from a Ramsey, or any friends, or any of JonBenet's friends or playmates, on two items of clothing? One of them is a 9 marker DNA spot, idicating a rough pull on the longjohns. Why did the DA state that such new DNA results clear the Ramsey's? Oh, I forgot, the DA office is also part of the conspiracy and cover up, the Ramsey's being rich and all.

I won't get into conspiracy theories, I'll just say plainly that the DA was incompetent. No DNA found would clear the Rs. All it would mean is that someone else may have been present that night. That doesn't automatically clear the Rs.

Then again, it doesn't really even mean someone else was there. A "rough pull" could have been up as well as down. Maybe she asked someone for help going to the bathroom? My understanding is that this is so-called "touch" DNA, and could have been transferred. But I certainly don't know much about DNA.

The fact is there are hundreds of questions you can ask for any Ramseys did it scenario, with no good answers, and hundreds of questions you can ask for any intruder scenario, with no good answers.

I don't know about hundreds, but a dozen or so on each side. I think such questions are valuable, even if they can't be definitively answered.

<modsnip> Mitchell did have a bag with his kidnap tools in it, thats what Elizabeth Smart said, and you mocked that as silly. Have you read anything about Mitchell? About Jaycee Dugard? Child kidnapping in general?

I was a military policeman in the Army, I was a juvenile probation officer, I have been a criminal defense attorney. I have a BA in Political Science with minors in criminal justice and sociology, and a law degree. I have been involved in over 1,000 criminal cases, including over a dozen murder cases. How many crime scenes have you been to? How many murder cases have you been involved in? How many criminals have you arrested? How many cases have you tried?

As a true crime researcher and writer, my information led the FBI to seek a court order to get the DNA of a suspect (Ted Kaczynski) in a major unsolved murder case (the Tylenol Murders). See http://dailyherald.com/article/20110519/news/705199967/ . That information was developed in my investigation which lasted about three years, in which no theory was rejected, no suspect was rejected and no theory or suspect was viewed as pre-ordained. We are awaiting the results of a DNA comparison. Please tell us about the cases in which your research led the FBI to consider a new suspect and seek DNA.

I know this isn't addressed to me, but have to say your experience, or someone else's lack thereof, is irrelevant. Your theory either holds water, or not, regardless of your past laurels.

For what it's worth, I think you've noted some interesting parallels, and I certainly think a DNA comparison is in order.

Did Burke, John or Patsy Ramsey kill JonBenet? Perhaps. For years I thought it likely that they did. But the new DNA evidence has caused me to take another look. Brian David Mitchell threw his child against a bed headboard. Brian David Mitchell wanted a child sex slave alive, yet he put a knife against Elizabeth Smart's throat, and had she moved an inch, she would have died in her bed. Does that make sense? No, not really, but that is what happened.

That's not what happened. Mitchel threatened Elizabeth, stating he'd kill her if she moved an inch (or words to that effect) but you've stated it would actually have happened, and you don't know that. It was a threat meant to help control the girl. Whether or not it would have been carried out is another matter.

Mitchell also told Elizabeth he was taking her hostage for ransom. He lied. Why? I don't know. Maybe he thought it would make her more compliant, or that the sister would tell the parents and it might delay calling plice. He also has serious mental illness.

I think that makes sense - an attempt to clam her. No use telling her she was being taken to be a sex slave.

But you think it so impossible an intruder killed JonBenet, if Elizabeth Smart had been found dead in her bed, no sign of an intruder, would you be telling us how her parents or sister must have killed her? After all, it doesn't make sense for a kidnapper to kill his victim before taking her!

I'm sorry, I'm not up on the Smart case. Was there a RN?

You have to take everything available into account. Were there strange inexplicable or counterproductive things that the Smarts did ?

The bottom line is that you don't solve cases by declaring someone guilty, igoring DNA and other evidence that points to someone other than your suspect and attacking anyone who offers a different veiwpoint. That will not solve the case. But I think at this point you seem more worried about being proven wrong than solving the case. After all, we should just move on right? You know for a fact that JonBenet has moved on, and she does NOT want anyone to try to identify her killer, thats what you said, right?

<modsnip>

I know most of this is not addressed to me. I agree, we can't ignore things just because they don't fit our pet theory.

 

[AKWILKS]

i won't attempt to anwer the bdi questions, as i've never believed bdi.



Good question. I agree, the use of "southern common sense" seems to negate the idea that it was someone close to jr. (see this is the point of asking these types of questions, it forces one to confront things that don't fit one's theory)

i can only hazard a guess that maybe the phrase was used within the family? Pointing to the housekeeper? Or maybe a joke amongst a close circle of friends? I have no evidence for this.

An excellent point.

One person in "perfect murder" mentioned she thought she had heard patsy use the phrase before as a joke about john. But nobody else states this. John was from michigan, so to me it indicates the writer did not know much about john. Patsy asked police why the note said this since john was from michigan. John's company was from georgia, so someone reading an article migth have thought he was from the south. Also, patsy capitalized the word "southern" when she used it, barzee did not.




The palm print may have been from someone invited into the house, either as a guest or to do some work. Do we know it wasn't from any of their friends?

There is a report from a newspaper that the palm print on the dood was sourced to melinda ramsey. I have not seen confirmation of that however.

I think others can address the pubic hair better than i can. I don't know enough details about it.

There seems to be debate as to whether that was sourced or not.

If it's a partial fingerprint, can we really say it's from someone unknown? The implication (i think) is that it's from a stranger. But unknown only means we don't know who it belongs to - because it can't be matched.

I agree, its unknown. It could be from an intruder, but also could be a lab tech, sales clerk, etc.

I'm not sure what is meant by scuff marks. Do you think there is credible evidence of someone coming in/out the window? Scuff marks on the wall could be old, and could be from when john came in the window when he locked himself out, several months prior to the murder.

True. There were also pry marks reported on two doors, but those doors were latched from within.



Making it all the more unlikely that the window was the entry/exit point, and begging the question why was jbr taken down to the basement?

I don't know.



Two possible explanations. One, the tape - a very small piece, too small to effectively silence jbr- was pulled off some other object in the house (a picture, an american girl doll ? ) two, police allowed patsy's sister to take huge amounts of "stuff" out of the house. Who knows what she took? The missing roll of duct tape? Among other things? Things that should have been found, but are absent can't be proven to have been removed by pam, but it's a pretty sensible explanation, don't you agree?

Possible. But i understand the house was searched and no matching duct tape or cord was found. They later tore out walls and looked in crawl spaces, still found nothing.



I won't get into conspiracy theories, i'll just say plainly that the da was incompetent. No dna found would clear the rs. All it would mean is that someone else may have been present that night. That doesn't automatically clear the rs.

True.

Then again, it doesn't really even mean someone else was there. A "rough pull" could have been up as well as down. Maybe she asked someone for help going to the bathroom? My understanding is that this is so-called "touch" dna, and could have been transferred. But i certainly don't know much about dna.

What we are told is that the dna did not match to any ramsey, any of their tested friends or any of jonbenets tested friends and playmates. I think the dna is highly likely to be from an intruder, absent a major lab error or an unlikely accidental transfer of someone not tested.



I don't know about hundreds, but a dozen or so on each side. I think such questions are valuable, even if they can't be definitively answered.

I agree.



I know this isn't addressed to me, but have to say your experience, or someone else's lack thereof, is irrelevant. Your theory either holds water, or not, regardless of your past laurels.

I mostly agree, just wanted to give some background. I know some excellent true crime researchers and writers who have no police or legal background. And some police and lawyers who don't know what they are doing!

For what it's worth, i think you've noted some interesting parallels, and i certainly think a dna comparison is in order.

Thank you. That is all i am asking for - compare the dna.



that's not what happened. Mitchel threatened elizabeth, stating he'd kill her if she moved an inch (or words to that effect) but you've stated it would actually have happened, and you don't know that. It was a threat meant to help control the girl. Whether or not it would have been carried out is another matter.

I meant, regardless of mitchell's intent, with a knife against the throat of elizabeth, had she jumped up, she might have died, even though mitchell did not want her to die.



I think that makes sense - an attempt to clam her. No use telling her she was being taken to be a sex slave.

To calm her, yes.



I'm sorry, i'm not up on the smart case. Was there a rn?

No note, but when elizabeth asked why she was being taken he told her "hostage for ransom".

You have to take everything available into account. Were there strange inexplicable or counterproductive things that the smarts did ?

No. But had she been found dead of a cut throat in her bed, the parents and sister would have been suspects.




I know most of this is not addressed to me. I agree, we can't ignore things just because they don't fit our pet theory.

agree 100%!!!

 

[vlpate]

I was a military policeman in the Army, I was a juvenile probation officer, I have been a criminal defense attorney. I have a BA in Political Science with minors in criminal justice and sociology, and a law degree. I have been involved in over 1,000 criminal cases, including over a dozen murder cases. How many crime scenes have you been to? How many murder cases have you been involved in? How many criminals have you arrested? How many cases have you tried?

As a true crime researcher and writer, my information led the FBI to seek a court order to get the DNA of a suspect (Ted Kaczynski) in a major unsolved murder case (the Tylenol Murders). See http://dailyherald.com/article/20110519/news/705199967/ . That information was developed in my investigation which lasted about three years, in which no theory was rejected, no suspect was rejected and no theory or suspect was viewed as pre-ordained. We are awaiting the results of a DNA comparison. Please tell us about the cases in which your research led the FBI to consider a new suspect and seek DNA.

No, I've never played any of those things on a forum or in real life. Well, investigator sometimes - background checks, license checks, stuff like that. I actually have a job that keeps me much too busy to aspire to such lofty goals as tying TK with the Tylenol Killer, the Zodiac Killer, and ...what was the other one... oh, the Nightstalker. Jesus, talk about someone having a lot of time on their hands - TK was one busy criminal!

I do have one question though, you stated that TK has never had his DNA drawn by FBI? He actually has had it drawn - in fact, the link you put up states they have a sample of his DNA. What did I miss?

Fact or fiction?

 

[DeeDee249]

I haven't been any of those things either. But I do talk to dead people. Sometimes they talk back....