Possible Scenarios

[feddup]

I watched an old movie the other night called Twisted. The kid had a much younger sister and he was always threatening her but.....this kid
SEEMED twisted. Everyone around him could see he was "strange". Did any of the R's friends ever mention that BR seemed creepy and strange for a 9 yr old kid? And even someexperts have said that a 9 yr old could not deal a blow that hard to do that kind of damage.
As far as BR being jealous of all the attention with the pageants, etc. Well, I took quite a few different kind of dance lessons and was in things like we would travel and go entertain at certain places but I dont remember my older brother showing any jealousy. He had his own interests and dont think he really wanted to hang out with my Mother. I am not trying to get on your nerves or disagree with you just trying to get to the bottom of this. NONE of it makes sense. I can't see JR abusing JBR, if he DID, I can't see PR putting up with it. I just cant see how this happened. And...all Mothers fly off the handle with young kids. It doesnt mean they are abusive killers.
I haver ruled out BR being jealous....that is from my life experience. I have never heard my brother say once over the yrs he was so jealous of the time Mum put in on me, she did spend money on boy stuff for him.
I havent ruled out PR writing the ransom note. That is what baffles me:waitasec:

 

[Whaleshark]

....that is from my life experience.

..And there's your problem right there.

"We only see what we know" - Goethe

"Where the world ceases to be the scene of our personal hopes and wishes, where we face it as free beings admiring, asking and observing, there we enter the realm of Art and Science” - Albert Einstein

...When you are limited by your own life experiences and cannot know anything but that which you personally know or think to be true, you won't see the possibility of it being any other way.

 

[Whaleshark]

Let me put it another way - by your logic and life experience, no one else's brother could be jealous of them, because your brother was not jealous of you.

What does your personal life experience have to do with Burke's and JonBenet's? Nothing.

If you did not ever get molested by your brother, by your logic and life experience, no one else could have ever gotten molested by her brother. I'm pretty sure this is not the case.

I was not molested by my father. But I'm pretty sure someone else has been molested by his/her father though. But how could that be, I mean, after all, that wasn't my life experience?

...See the faulty reasoning?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

JonBenet's activity was pageants. What was Burke's activity? Flying planes with John? He probably hung out in the cockpit when the family went on vacation but I doubt him and John were going on flying trips just to spend time together and so Burke could learn more about flying.

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy began managing JB's pageant "career" just after she completed her cancer treatments, just around when JB was 3 and BR was 6-7. By all accounts, including her own, she threw herself into it with everything she had. BR, at that age, would probably have missed his mother's attention, not to infer that HE would have wanted to take voice or dance lessons, or be propelled into modeling or a performing "career". It is pretty safe to say that THAT wasn't what he missed, but rather his mother taking more of an active part in HIS life as well as his sister's. For that, he may have resented them both.
I am sure he did have interests of his own typical for a boy his age, but 6 is vastly different from 9 or 10 in terms of how ready the child is to separate emotionally from the mother. And for BR, he was 6 when it started.

Remember also, there were TWO boys in that family- their half-brother JAR was in college minutes away and came home (to his father's house) often.
He was said to have an "unusual" interest in JB and spoke about her often. It was considered odd by his college friends. My child was a senior in college that year 1996/97, though not there, but a good friend was a student there in Boulder. He did not know JAR personally, but knew OF him, even before the murder (that says something with a student body that large). When JB's murder hit the local news, guess who he felt was involved? In fact, it was the first thing he said.
I just don't think we can rule him out, especially with some involvement by BR as well. Sibling sexual abuse is not unusual, though doesn't usually involve killing the victim. However, in this case, her death could have been an unintended result of either the head bash or some erotic activity with the garrote.
This would explain a lot of the parents' behavior as well as why they'd cover this up. Patsy had HER son to protect as well as JR's.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Do you have some more specific information about JAR's unusual interest in JonBenet?
Here's a quote I found on another forum that was found on another forum lol:

"Classmates of JAR have stated for the record that he talked about JonBenet all the time... How beautiful she was and how much he loved her. He was fixated on her...Probably just a proud older brother talking but some of classmates thought is was strange to say the least."

 

[DeeDee249]

Do you have some more specific information about JAR's unusual interest in JonBenet?
Here's a quote I found on another forum that was found on another forum lol:

Nothing more specific than that which you have found. With LW still around do you think any former classmates would say more than that? LW prevents any and all accusations against the family. And the apparently still powerless DA, with supposedly tons of unseen and unsorted evidence still available to LE, cannot bring any of it to bear against anyone.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Since JB experienced extreme trauma to her skull/head, was there any bleeding from the location or was it internal?

I'm guessing that if she did bleed from her head wound, there would have been some blood splatter evidence where the head blow took place, right?

 

[joeskidbeck]

Since JB experienced extreme trauma to her skull/head, was there any bleeding from the location or was it internal?

I'm guessing that if she did bleed from her head wound, there would have been some blood splatter evidence where the head blow took place, right?

Actually, the head wound wasn't even seen till the coroner found it at autospy. There wasn't any external bleeding.

 

[It's Not the Nanny]

Thank you!! I've always wondered about that.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thank you!! I've always wondered about that.

JB's skull fracture was a closed-scalp injury. The blood was all subdural. To look at her, there was no head injury at all from the outside. There was not even swelling of the head which would have certainly occurred if she had lived longer. No blood or tissue splatters. Not that the "forensics" (and I use the term loosely) that took place in that investigation would have uncovered any. The house was released by LE so fast, and "sold" to a group of R friends and "investors" who immediately pulled up all the carpets, removed all the wallpaper and painted all the walls.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

It's_Not_The_Nanny: Is that a picture of Laci Peterson by your name?

 

[feddup]

Let me put it another way - by your logic and life experience, no one else's brother could be jealous of them, because your brother was not jealous of you.

What does your personal life experience have to do with Burke's and JonBenet's? Nothing.

If you did not ever get molested by your brother, by your logic and life experience, no one else could have ever gotten molested by her brother. I'm pretty sure this is not the case.

I was not molested by my father. But I'm pretty sure someone else has been molested by his/her father though. But how could that be, I mean, after all, that wasn't my life experience?

...See the faulty reasoning?

If BR was jealous of his sister, surely we wouldve heard about it after all these yrs by someone.
Its all speculation as to he was jealous of her. They did alot of things non pageant related... Disney Cruse, etc?

 

[joeskidbeck]

It's_Not_The_Nanny: Is that a picture of Laci Peterson by your name?

Eileen, I'm not INTN, but that is a photo of Casey Anthony (in high school).

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If BR was jealous of his sister, surely we wouldve heard about it after all these yrs by someone.
Its all speculation as to he was jealous of her. They did alot of things non pageant related... Disney Cruse, etc?

I agree that it's all speculation that he was jealous of her. We do know about one instance that showed some jealously: The Ramseys' former housekeeper, Linda Wilcox, reported that Burke had asked his mom, "Am I fat?" "No, why?" "Because everyone's ooohing and ahhhing over her (JonBenet)!"

It is possible that Burke was envious of the attention JonBenet got from everybody, not just from his mother. Burke has been described as being a quiet child so it is possible that he never really voiced his opinions a lot.

And I can't believe I got Laci and Casey confused.

 

[Toltec]

I don't think Burke was at all jealous of his sister...he would at times be annoyed by her. When he describes his sister, he says she was nice. He also said that JonBenet would get into his things, his drawers, looking for gum.

If I were a BDI, I believe a fight took place over the Nintendo64...as in JonBenet wanting to play and unplugging the controller when Burke would not give her a turn. When you are playing a video game, if the controller gets unplugged, then you lose, having to start over. That could have enraged Burke, causing him to strike JonBenet over the head.

 

[Beatrice]

Patsy had gone great effort & expense to get a life sized doll matching JonBenet's appearance...
Reportedly, JonBenet pushed it aside & didn't like the doll.

Had Patsy reacted to this?

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy had gone great effort & expense to get a life sized doll matching JonBenet's appearance...
Reportedly, JonBenet pushed it aside & didn't like the doll.

Had Patsy reacted to this?

We have seen one photo of Patsy with JB Christmas morning. They are both smiling, but Patsy's eyes seem red, as of she had been crying. She is holding JB's arm, some feel, too tightly, though JB seems happy in the photo.
I am sure Patsy was annoyed about JB treating the expensive "My Twinn" doll with nonchalance. I think she expected it to be a big hit, something JB would be thrilled with. JB's alleged comment "I don't think it looks like me" says a lot, too. The "Pageant Princess JB" was Patsy's creation, just as the doll was. The doll was dressed up in a frilly pageant-style dress with a tiara and frothy blonde curls. JB didn't seem to identify with this "persona". She saw herself as just a regular little girl, though I am sure she was aware of being pretty and seemed to like being thought of as pretty. What little girl wouldn't?
As to whether Patsy would have resented JB's seeming rejection of both the doll and her mother's projection of that doll onto JB herself, I am sure she did, but I highly doubt it was something that she'd kill her daughter for.
Whatever Patsy knew about JB's molestation, whatever happened that night, whatever the dynamic between Patsy and JB, Patsy loved her daughter and doted on her. If Patsy was a demanding and overbearing mother, that wouldn't be something that would lead me to believe she killed JB. Lots of mothers are like that.
BUT- something horrible happened that night to JB. Something Patsy either was responsible for or something Patsy KNEW who was responsible for. The events of that night involved the parents for sure- in one way or another. And other family members may also have been involved.
And once again I feel I have to mention that we simply cannot discount the part any medications Patsy was on played in that night. Even over-the-counter sleep aids can cause erratic and sometimes aggressive behavior. Klonopin was found in the home. Patsy was a cancer survivor. She'd had chemo. Chemo changes a person physiologically. Things can have an effect on a cancer patient that are unexpected.

 

[UKGuy]

We have seen one photo of Patsy with JB Christmas morning. They are both smiling, but Patsy's eyes seem red, as of she had been crying. She is holding JB's arm, some feel, too tightly, though JB seems happy in the photo.
I am sure Patsy was annoyed about JB treating the expensive "My Twinn" doll with nonchalance. I think she expected it to be a big hit, something JB would be thrilled with. JB's alleged comment "I don't think it looks like me" says a lot, too. The "Pageant Princess JB" was Patsy's creation, just as the doll was. The doll was dressed up in a frilly pageant-style dress with a tiara and frothy blonde curls. JB didn't seem to identify with this "persona". She saw herself as just a regular little girl, though I am sure she was aware of being pretty and seemed to like being thought of as pretty. What little girl wouldn't?
As to whether Patsy would have resented JB's seeming rejection of both the doll and her mother's projection of that doll onto JB herself, I am sure she did, but I highly doubt it was something that she'd kill her daughter for.
Whatever Patsy knew about JB's molestation, whatever happened that night, whatever the dynamic between Patsy and JB, Patsy loved her daughter and doted on her. If Patsy was a demanding and overbearing mother, that wouldn't be something that would lead me to believe she killed JB. Lots of mothers are like that.
BUT- something horrible happened that night to JB. Something Patsy either was responsible for or something Patsy KNEW who was responsible for. The events of that night involved the parents for sure- in one way or another. And other family members may also have been involved.
And once again I feel I have to mention that we simply cannot discount the part any medications Patsy was on played in that night. Even over-the-counter sleep aids can cause erratic and sometimes aggressive behavior. Klonopin was found in the home. Patsy was a cancer survivor. She'd had chemo. Chemo changes a person physiologically. Things can have an effect on a cancer patient that are unexpected.

DeeDee249

As to whether Patsy would have resented JB's seeming rejection of both the doll and her mother's projection of that doll onto JB herself, I am sure she did, but I highly doubt it was something that she'd kill her daughter for.

This feature of Patsy's psychology, projection, was illuminated for me by some mum who wants her daughter to be a star or in modern lingo a celebrity. So she has her eight-year old daughter botoxed and waxed at regular intervals!

Dolls seem to feature quite a bit do they not? We have the "My Twinn" doll, the one delivered to Access Graphics after JonBenet's death and of course the Barbie doll in the wine cellar, not a coincidence I reckon?

Did you mention on another thread that the barbie doll was lying in its box?

They are both smiling, but Patsy's eyes seem red, as of she had been crying. She is holding JB's arm, some feel, too tightly, though JB seems happy in the photo.

With your reference to drugs the red eyes might be a consequence of late nights and using sedatives?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249

This feature of Patsy's psychology, projection, was illuminated for me by some mum who wants her daughter to be a star or in modern lingo a celebrity. So she has her eight-year old daughter botoxed and waxed at regular intervals!

Dolls seem to feature quite a bit do they not? We have the "My Twinn" doll, the one delivered to Access Graphics after JonBenet's death and of course the Barbie doll in the wine cellar, not a coincidence I reckon?

Did you mention on another thread that the barbie doll was lying in its box?


With your reference to drugs the red eyes might be a consequence of late nights and using sedatives?


.

Possibly, but I think it looks like Patsy had been crying. I don't think sedative use causes red eyes. The Barbie was laying in its box, I believe. Too bad the photos aren't clearer or uncropped.
Most little girls love dolls. Some grown women, too. I love dolls myself and at one point had quite an extensive collection of vintage Barbies and Ginny dolls. (all gotten and sold via eBay).
When my daughter was young, I enjoyed buying her dolls as much as she loved playing with them. That in itself is not unusual or odd. But I never thought of my little girl AS a doll, mine or anyone else's. With Patsy, it isn't the basement Barbie that is odd- it looks to be that year's (1996) Holiday issue doll- a fairly common gift at Christmas for many little girls. Of course, though the DOLL is not unusual, its being found in the basement near the dead body of its owner IS unusual.
JB liked Barbie, owning a large My Size (almost 3 feet tall) as well as the seeming Holiday Barbie in the basement photo and presumably several of the more common play-size Barbies (about 12 " tall). And she loved her Barbie nightie too.
The doll delivered to Access Graphics after JB's death was an American Girl doll. That is a doll that comes in many varieties depicting girls in all eras of American history. I am not sure what one was delivered. JB was said to own a "Samantha" American Girl doll. All the American Girl dolls are 18" tall with vinyl limbs and heads with rooted hair of varying colors and styles, and all have stuffed cloth bodies. They are made by the Pleasant Company. The dolls came with a white cord around their necks which held the vinyl head onto the cloth body. The cord was NOT the same kid of cord found on JB (which was flat nylon). The doll's manufacturer suggested that parents put a piece of duct tape over the knot in the cord at the back of the dolls' neck so that the knot and cord didn't interfere with brushing the dolls' hair or fastening the dolls' clothing.
The MyTwinn dolls are now made by Mattel, I think. Not sure if that was the case in 1996.