Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

[Sallyla]

Eagleeye, go listen to the LISK podcast with Ray. The whole podcast probably explains the legal technicalities more clearly than I will. The specific quote is at 10:33.

The court says Ray can only speak about the tapes regarding claims about them others have already put officially in the public domain (so not gossip or speculation from places like here). In this case that’s basically limited to Detective Vincent Stephan‘s letter to Newsday in 2012, in which Stephan said he’d listened to the tapes and made a variety of quite extensive claims about their contents.

Ray can confirm or deny Stephan’s claims in that letter re the tapes, but not expand much further. On one item he says it’s misleading because context isn’t given by Stephan but Ray can’t expand on what that context is.

It’s made explicit in the interview that Ray is responding to Stephan’s claims about the tape and nothing else.

It’s also made very clear that Ray is answering purely based on what he has heard on the tapes and nothing else.

The tapes are absolutely the only thing involved in this discussion. Stephan’s claims and Ray’s assessment of them after hearing the tapes for himself.

Ray went through Stephan’s letter line by line, individually pointed out every claim he says are shown to be untrue by the tapes. He deals with each one separately.

He refers to to Stephan’s letter and Stephan’s claim:

In the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was not about to be murdered.

Ray comments on this saying “That’s false”. If that is false then it must be true that Ray thinks the tape shows she was about to be murdered but legal restrictions prevent him from coming right out and saying it.

If you look at Stephan’s letter and the way that quote was constructed, it was the start of a paragraph. A bald and definitive statement. Stephan doesn’t qualify this. Because of that Ray’s answer is just as bald and definitive. Ray is saying the tape shows she was about to be murdered in the house at Oak Beach, Brewer’s house. Ray does not qualify either. He does not say (for example) that he believed Stephan had overstepped the mark ruling out murder on the basis of the tapes, he is not saying that he thinks murder should have been considered as a possibility. He’s saying the statement she wasn’t about to be killed there was false.

Ray is saying ‘In the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was about to be murdered’.

And Ray is crystal clear that statement is based on the tapes. That they show Shannan was about to be murdered.

 

[Puggle]

Any of the old crew here??

Never thought we would see the day the tapes would be released.

Maybe it will only take a few years now to get them released to the wider public.

 

[Puggle]

Well, she did wind up dead. That doesn't necessarily mean the tapes prove she was going to be murdered in that house. I get it theres the "they're trying to kill me" statement and the conclusion we are all aware of. So is Ray saying this based on her statement and the inevitable outcome OR is he saying this because there was additional information on the tapes (ie: a struggle overheard, a man threatening her, etc.) ... this is what the public needs to know.

Here's what I can't wrap my head around, why would Brewer and potential associates kill a woman while her driver sits outside in his vehicle? This is assuming Pak is nothing more than a shady driver who does livery for escorts and not involved in some conspiracy. It doesn't make sense to me that provided Brewer is connected to LISK or LISK himself that he would select an escort with a witness who was waiting outside.... So let's say she was about to be murdered in the house.... What do they tell Pak? She slipped out the back door and took off?

Alternatively, someone could've went into a blind rage. I think what is much more likely is that Shannan either observed something (some kind of 'nasty *advertiser censored*') or a statement was made that spooked her. Maybe this was merely intended to be a session where Brewer or unknown persons built rapport with her, hence not caring about Pak's presence but something went south. Someone did or said something impulsive that night, I refuse to believe that she went into psychosis, drug induced or not and decided she was going to be murdered without any other environmental factors or triggers, it's ludicrous.

Shannan was also a smart woman, with a good vocabulary and interested in poetry, music , the arts , you get it. Her lack of ability to elaborate based on accounts from Coletti and Pak make me feel that if it was a drug induced state, it wasn't a party drug that she took willingly. Her lack of coordination and confusion points to a dissociative. I'd bet the farm that she was given GHB, Ketamine, Rohypnol, something of that nature and it was unbeknownst to her at the time of ingestion.

If Hackett is a legitimate POI now that this is being considered a criminal investigation, it would make sense to subpoena the prescription records dating back to the 2000's. What controlled substances were being picked up with scripts with his name on it and by who?

No drugs in her system.

Pak is a snake who wouldn't have been shy of involving himself in anything - at the cost of another - as long as there was $$$$ in it for him.

 

[Sallyla]

So yes, EagleEye, I think your idea of a struggle etc may be a real possibility.

Re: Pak.

Either he was in on it or they didn’t know he was there until late enough for it to cause problems.

Ray’s statements seriously start to cast doubt on his role too. Again, Ray dealt with Stephan’s claims individually.

Shannan’s demeanour was calm

False

The males’ voices on the tapes are calm

False

At no time was Shannan desperate during the call

False

I think this brings Pak right back into play as a POI. It certainly seems his story about him calmly trying to coax Shannan into the car is undermined. Also if one of the voices on the tape is his, and Ray is right about the tape showing the events surrounding Shannan’s murder, then that certainly puts him far more at the centre of any potential violence than previously thought.

Amber Costello got into a car after repeatedly refusing to give LISK an outcall. Maybe the offer of a ride and protection from someone she’s acquainted with (Pak) swung it? Many of the victims seem to have disappeared in situations where it seems likely they got into a car to do an outcall, not a legit taxi, but someone they’d feel happy to get in with. Surely Pak as a ‘freelancer’ was in a prime position to have enough hookers who trusted him but not connected to him strongly enough for links to be made. Perfect supplier of victims if someone wanted them?​

The other possibility is that Pak’s presence wasn’t known about by Brewer until too late which is what set the usual MO off kilter. Or that his silence was bought with money or threats maybe?

I think he was probably involved, at least as a sourcer. A few weeks before Shannan had fallen out with her other driver Blake. She refused to give him his cut so leapt out of his car to make her own way home. Pak may have felt he could get away with handing Shannan over to killers despite the fact they had known links to each other. He would just have told Alex she’d done the same to him and that was the last he’d seen of her. Would have been a plausible excuse for not her not being with Pak.

Anyway, apols for waffling. On Covid lockdown so prob overthinking things a bit.

 

[Sallyla]

I think the rest of your theory sounds spot on EagleEye.

Embarrassingly, I have actually had drug induced psychosis. On my 18th birthday I took waaaaay too much Speed as an inexperienced drug taker. And the most common delusion (I had it) is that there are people out to get you/murder you.

But Shannan was an experienced drug taker with tolerance. And cocaine psychosis is not something that suddenly takes hold, it develops over time. You don’t go from normal to nuts in a couple of hours. Speed - yes, it can do that. But Shannan was a hooker in NYC, she would be right at the top of the drugs food chain getting decent quality stuff and nothing cut to *advertiser censored* with speed.

I don’t believe the psychosis thing for a second, but someone with medical knowledge (ahem) most certainly could construct a convincing account of someone displaying symptoms of psychosis.

I think I also read somewhere that the negative drugs test may have been a lack of quality in the tissue tested rather than an absence. Or (depressingly) it could mean someone held her somewhere alive for long enough for it to leave her system?

Also, what drugs do they test for? Just street drugs? It’s occurred to me that if a doctor is involved they may have access to thinks like anaesthetics.

There was something about Shannan I think, a smartness, a sparkiness, and resilience that made her fight back like that.

Not to speak negatively of the other girls, but life seemed to have beaten the spark out of them. Especially Amber Costello. I’m not sure they would have had the level of vigilance Shannan had for things going awry, it was just normal to them. Drugs, violence, abuse.

It’s all so sad.

 

[Sallyla]

No drugs in her system.

Pak is a snake who wouldn't have been shy of involving himself in anything - at the cost of another - as long as there was $$$$ in it for him.

Totally agree. I don’t buy that bollocks about being duped into an illegal migration scam bringing a girl from China. He was a human trafficker and organised criminal IMO.

 

[WINDSOR]

Puggle, asked if any old timers still here. Well I never left.

I have always considered Pak a major POI. I do believe he is definitely involved. Remember he made the date between Shannan and Brewer, not Shannan. Shannan was not known to work in Long Island, so far from her residence. No need for her to, lots of customers much closer.

Pak was the last to see Shannan alive.

I believe the SCPD spent very little time questioning Pak, remember he is the primary witness, possibly because they did not want to know what he knows.

Regarding some people who badmouth John Ray. He has done more than anybody to advance the case for justice for Shannan. If anybody else can and wants to a better job than John Ray, let them step forward.
Because of John we know more about this case than the SCPD would want us to know.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

Eagleeye, go listen to the LISK podcast with Ray. The whole podcast probably explains the legal technicalities more clearly than I will. The specific quote is at 10:33.

The court says Ray can only speak about the tapes regarding claims about them others have already put officially in the public domain (so not gossip or speculation from places like here). In this case that’s basically limited to Detective Vincent Stephan‘s letter to Newsday in 2012, in which Stephan said he’d listened to the tapes and made a variety of quite extensive claims about their contents.

Ray can confirm or deny Stephan’s claims in that letter re the tapes, but not expand much further. On one item he says it’s misleading because context isn’t given by Stephan but Ray can’t expand on what that context is.

It’s made explicit in the interview that Ray is responding to Stephan’s claims about the tape and nothing else.

It’s also made very clear that Ray is answering purely based on what he has heard on the tapes and nothing else.

The tapes are absolutely the only thing involved in this discussion. Stephan’s claims and Ray’s assessment of them after hearing the tapes for himself.

Ray went through Stephan’s letter line by line, individually pointed out every claim he says are shown to be untrue by the tapes. He deals with each one separately.

He refers to to Stephan’s letter and Stephan’s claim:

In the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was not about to be murdered.

Ray comments on this saying “That’s false”. If that is false then it must be true that Ray thinks the tape shows she was about to be murdered but legal restrictions prevent him from coming right out and saying it.

If you look at Stephan’s letter and the way that quote was constructed, it was the start of a paragraph. A bald and definitive statement. Stephan doesn’t qualify this. Because of that Ray’s answer is just as bald and definitive. Ray is saying the tape shows she was about to be murdered in the house at Oak Beach, Brewer’s house. Ray does not qualify either. He does not say (for example) that he believed Stephan had overstepped the mark ruling out murder on the basis of the tapes, he is not saying that he thinks murder should have been considered as a possibility. He’s saying the statement she wasn’t about to be killed there was false.

Ray is saying ‘In the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was about to be murdered’.

And Ray is crystal clear that statement is based on the tapes. That they show Shannan was about to be murdered.

Good analysis, I've listened to the Podcast 3 times and listened to the section where he debunks Stephans letter about 10 times. I understand he is only speaking on the letter and not the contents of the tape itself.

The statement that "she wasn't about to be killed there" being false is alarming, but as we all knew when this was released to Ray and only Ray, this is going to be purely speculative on our part. Ray has a vested interest in supporting what we know, which is that Shannan did die AND for his case it was not of natural causes and that some party (presumably Hackett, the defendant in the wrongful death case) is responsible.

So essentially, whomever was going to kill Shannan in that house, caught up with her in the early morning hours and did in fact kill her, which explains the damaged hyoid bone that Michael Baden documented in his autopsy. Seems risky, but not entirely farfetched, you've got Brennan, Coletti and potentially others awake and aware of her running through their community and then someone is able to locate her (her driver couldn't), murder her and hide her body without being seen.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

So yes, EagleEye, I think your idea of a struggle etc may be a real possibility.

Re: Pak.

Either he was in on it or they didn’t know he was there until late enough for it to cause problems.

Ray’s statements seriously start to cast doubt on his role too. Again, Ray dealt with Stephan’s claims individually.

Shannan’s demeanour was calm

False

The males’ voices on the tapes are calm

False

At no time was Shannan desperate during the call

False

I think this brings Pak right back into play as a POI. It certainly seems his story about him calmly trying to coax Shannan into the car is undermined. Also if one of the voices on the tape is his, and Ray is right about the tape showing the events surrounding Shannan’s murder, then that certainly puts him far more at the centre of any potential violence than previously thought.

Amber Costello got into a car after repeatedly refusing to give LISK an outcall. Maybe the offer of a ride and protection from someone she’s acquainted with (Pak) swung it? Many of the victims seem to have disappeared in situations where it seems likely they got into a car to do an outcall, not a legit taxi, but someone they’d feel happy to get in with. Surely Pak as a ‘freelancer’ was in a prime position to have enough hookers who trusted him but not connected to him strongly enough for links to be made. Perfect supplier of victims if someone wanted them?​

The other possibility is that Pak’s presence wasn’t known about by Brewer until too late which is what set the usual MO off kilter. Or that his silence was bought with money or threats maybe?

I think he was probably involved, at least as a sourcer. A few weeks before Shannan had fallen out with her other driver Blake. She refused to give him his cut so leapt out of his car to make her own way home. Pak may have felt he could get away with handing Shannan over to killers despite the fact they had known links to each other. He would just have told Alex she’d done the same to him and that was the last he’d seen of her. Would have been a plausible excuse for not her not being with Pak.

Anyway, apols for waffling. On Covid lockdown so prob overthinking things a bit.

Strong possibility, this wouldn't align with the theory of Pak booking the date, also, remember , they tried to convince Pak to go to CVS to get the lube and cards, he cited unfamiliarity with the area and refused to go on that basis. Which is when Brewer and Shannan went on that car ride , which many have speculated was within the OIBA boundaries to obtain drugs. So he would've known about Pak's presence before even extending the date an additional hour.

 

[Sallyla]

As we all knew when this was released to Ray and only Ray, this is going to be purely speculative on our part. Ray has a vested interest in supporting what we know, which is that Shannan did die AND for his case it was not of natural causes and that some party (presumably Hackett, the defendant in the wrongful death case) is responsible.[\QUOTE]


But it’s not been released just to Ray. It has been released to the estate of Shannan Gilbert (on whose behalf the case was brought) which via Mari’s estate is now co-administered by Sheree and attorney totally independent of Ray called Frances Nicotra. Sheree and Frances are entitled to and will have copies of the tapes also and ultimate control of them.

It’s not ‘his case’. It’s the case of the estate of Shannan Gilbert and he can only act under the instruction of Sheree and Frances as administrators of the estate. I don’t believe Sheree would tolerate Ray releasing misinformation when her primary concern has been to get the truth about what happened to her sister.

TBH, only someone a bit maverick and off the wall would have got it to this point. I think 99% of attorneys would have seen what the were up against and advised them to settle quietly with SCPD with minimum fuss out of court, nominally for their tardy arrival and errors on the night she disappeared. That would involve the family having to accept the accidental drowning theory.

If it was about the money all this stuff about Shannan would be a yellowing, forgotten news clipping at the bottom of a file now.

Seems risky, but not entirely farfetched, you've got Brennan, Coletti and potentially others awake and aware of her running through their community and then someone is able to locate her (her driver couldn't), murder her and hide her body without being seen.[\QUOTE]

We don’t know that Pak never found her, we know he claims he didn’t find her. Other neighbours witnessed her with Hackett and she was banging on any number of doors. She may well have been murdered behind closed doors. The actors involved knew full well that SCPD weren’t going to come in mob handed tearing up Oak Beach the next day just for a missing and supposedly drug addled hooker. They would have been perfectly confident about storing her somewhere temporarily whilst preparing access to her place in the marshes set up for the drowning theory

 

[Sallyla]

I don’t know how I managed to screw those posts up so massively in the last post. Apols.

 

[Sallyla]

Strong possibility, this wouldn't align with the theory of Pak booking the date, also, remember , they tried to convince Pak to go to CVS to get the lube and cards, he cited unfamiliarity with the area and refused to go on that basis. Which is when Brewer and Shannan went on that car ride , which many have speculated was within the OIBA boundaries to obtain drugs. So he would've known about Pak's presence before even extending the date an additional hour.

It’s ambiguous if Brewer knew of those exchanges about going to the store or going out.

But I very much agree the most likely scenario is that Pak booked the date and took her there knowing the intention was she would be killed.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

It’s ambiguous if Brewer knew of those exchanges about going to the store or going out.

But I very much agree the most likely scenario is that Pak booked the date and took her there knowing the intention was she would be killed.

Yea, can't rule anything out but I don't believe Pak is a pre-meditated Grim Reaper delivery service , bringing Shannan and potentially others to their death. Why even stick around and implicate yourself in it at all if you know she is going to die?

It doesn't make any sense and I'm not absolving him of some guilt or responsibility. It's very different than the GB4. I think Pak is apathetic because he is a convicted felon and resorting to this kind of work for a living, he probably doesn't want attention on him for other reasons. He strikes me as someone is definitely shady, selfish and got involved in something way over his head.

He can play along with the narrative being spewed if it keeps him from being out of the spotlight. He is a man of few words when it comes to this case. I see him as someone who is cognizant of the corruption and convoluted nature of this, but doesn't want to make waves.

Brewer must have known about the exchanges regarding the store. Pak was contacted by Shannan with the request, she wouldn't have reached out with this request on her own accord, her and Brewer left AFTER Pak declined to make the trip for them. So it appears, based on the chronology of this that Plan A was to send Pak on ride, for reasons unknown. @hawkshaw had made a good point, that it is entirely bizarre that a sex worker and John wouldn't have condoms or lubricant.

Just my theory but I think Brewer was aware of Pak and called an audible, sending him out of the way so something sinister could happen in the house, I can't think of any other logical explanation... a deck of cards? You're telling me he was paying hundreds of dollars per hour to play Blackjack with a sex worker?

Doubt it.

 

[Mopac Megalo]

Thanks so much for listening to the podcast!

With you continued support, we can keep shining a light on this case. The team is in touch with John Ray regularly so please reach out if you can further the investigation in any way. We're currently working on season two and will keep churning out bonus content in the interim.

If you haven't already, please rate, review and share!

Eagleeye, go listen to the LISK podcast with Ray. The whole podcast probably explains the legal technicalities more clearly than I will. The specific quote is at 10:33.

The court says Ray can only speak about the tapes regarding claims about them others have already put officially in the public domain (so not gossip or speculation from places like here). In this case that’s basically limited to Detective Vincent Stephan‘s letter to Newsday in 2012, in which Stephan said he’d listened to the tapes and made a variety of quite extensive claims about their contents.

Ray can confirm or deny Stephan’s claims in that letter re the tapes, but not expand much further. On one item he says it’s misleading because context isn’t given by Stephan but Ray can’t expand on what that context is.

It’s made explicit in the interview that Ray is responding to Stephan’s claims about the tape and nothing else.

It’s also made very clear that Ray is answering purely based on what he has heard on the tapes and nothing else.

The tapes are absolutely the only thing involved in this discussion. Stephan’s claims and Ray’s assessment of them after hearing the tapes for himself.

Ray went through Stephan’s letter line by line, individually pointed out every claim he says are shown to be untrue by the tapes. He deals with each one separately.

He refers to to Stephan’s letter and Stephan’s claim:

In the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was not about to be murdered.

Ray comments on this saying “That’s false”. If that is false then it must be true that Ray thinks the tape shows she was about to be murdered but legal restrictions prevent him from coming right out and saying it.

If you look at Stephan’s letter and the way that quote was constructed, it was the start of a paragraph. A bald and definitive statement. Stephan doesn’t qualify this. Because of that Ray’s answer is just as bald and definitive. Ray is saying the tape shows she was about to be murdered in the house at Oak Beach, Brewer’s house. Ray does not qualify either. He does not say (for example) that he believed Stephan had overstepped the mark ruling out murder on the basis of the tapes, he is not saying that he thinks murder should have been considered as a possibility. He’s saying the statement she wasn’t about to be killed there was false.

Ray is saying ‘In the house at Oak Beach, Gilbert was about to be murdered’.

And Ray is crystal clear that statement is based on the tapes. That they show Shannan was about to be murdered.

 

[Sallyla]

Thanks so much for listening to the podcast!

With you continued support, we can keep shining a light on this case. The team is in touch with John Ray regularly so please reach out if you can further the investigation in any way. We're currently working on season two and will keep churning out bonus content in the interim.

If you haven't already, please rate, review and share!

I’ve been enjoying that. Great interview with Joh Ray.

Is it very cheeky of me to ask if you have any inkling about my theory on Ray accusation Stephan’s claims the tape showed no sign Shannan was about to be murdered as false? I thought it may suggest Ray thought the tape did show she was about to be murdered. I understand if you can’t respond, just wondered how wide of the mark I was.

 

[hawkshaw]

EXCELLENT. Two posts back EAGLE....said I made an excellent post about them not having condoms and gels. Even Jimmy Burke had various gels and lubricants in the gym bag that was stolen out of his car.

 

[Sallyla]

Yea, can't rule anything out but I don't believe Pak is a pre-meditated Grim Reaper delivery service , bringing Shannan and potentially others to their death. Why even stick around and implicate yourself in it at all if you know she is going to die?

It doesn't make any sense and I'm not absolving him of some guilt or responsibility. It's very different than the GB4. I think Pak is apathetic because he is a convicted felon and resorting to this kind of work for a living, he probably doesn't want attention on him for other reasons. He strikes me as someone is definitely shady, selfish and got involved in something way over his head.

He can play along with the narrative being spewed if it keeps him from being out of the spotlight. He is a man of few words when it comes to this case. I see him as someone who is cognizant of the corruption and convoluted nature of this, but doesn't want to make waves.

Brewer must have known about the exchanges regarding the store. Pak was contacted by Shannan with the request, she wouldn't have reached out with this request on her own accord, her and Brewer left AFTER Pak declined to make the trip for them. So it appears, based on the chronology of this that Plan A was to send Pak on ride, for reasons unknown. @hawkshaw had made a good point, that it is entirely bizarre that a sex worker and John wouldn't have condoms or lubricant.

Just my theory but I think Brewer was aware of Pak and called an audible, sending him out of the way so something sinister could happen in the house, I can't think of any other logical explanation... a deck of cards? You're telling me he was paying hundreds of dollars per hour to play Blackjack with a sex worker?

Doubt it.

EagleEye, Pak already had a conviction related to human trafficking. He give this absolute claim he had been paid a to go and meet a rich Chinese girl in Sri Lanka and has told two different versions of why. Initially he said he was paid to ‘help her with her English’ as she flew to the United States but she revealed to him just as they were boarding the plane that she was entering the US illegally and he couldn’t back out. He claimed in later interviews that he was paid to ‘go and act as cover’ so she wouldn’t attract attention at customs, although he still claimed despite knowing that he had no idea she was entering illegally. All wide eyed innocent.

It’s all a load of *advertiser censored*. He was trafficking her, probably unwillingly into the US to be put to work essentially as a slave in a brothel. I was writing quite a long post why I am certain about that, things like, visas & routes. I was writing a massive long post explaining why, but thought that would clog the thread more than I already am. But if you want to know, happy to say on PM.

He would have known full well that he was bringing her over here to be imprisoned as an enforced sex slave who would likely also be exposed to torture, extreme violence, rape and worse. He was there to protect the gangs asset and would have been prepared to use threats, violence, intimidation ANYTHING to get her on that plane and into the US.

He was prepared to do that to another human. I have absolutely no problem at all with believing he was prepared to go a step further and source girls to be killed immediately with his full knowledge. He would obviously have been paid handsomely for that. He may have stayed to join in for his kicks. But if his job was to bring her there, it would logically be his job to take her away when deceased too.

There is no reason Shannan shouldn’t have made those requests alone. It is usually the woman who knows in advance that lube is needed for obvious reasons. Playing cards and cocaine are a known hooker method of stringing out ‘dates’ for extra cash. Even for non-hookers, playing cards on coke is an actual thing which is apparently strangely pleasurable. Not done that one meself. But on his misspent yoof, my husband used to do coke and play cards all night with his flat mate Hairy Dave. And believe me Hairy Dave is not in anyway near as attractive and pleasant company as Shannan. The hours just melt away, it’s sort of hypnotic. You can feel like you’ve been playing for 20 mins but 5 hours will have gone by. Strings the date out, more money, might make a John buy more coke. It’s kind of a con.

Both, for very different reasons, are exactly what a hooker would request herself if a date was going badly. (Trying not to be crude). She could have requested by text or IM.

Anyway, Shannan and Brewer went out BEFORE Pak was asked to go to CVS. And she asked for KY, Baby Oil and playing cards, not condoms. Brewer and Shannan didn’t leave Oak Beach on their errand but the CVS is in South Bay. Attached relevant page from Lost Girls re items and timings. Pak said he assumed SG & JB went to buy drugs off an OB resident. I assumed Hackett.

KY jelly - women in their 20s rarely actually NEED lube unless it is for one specific sexual act where natural lubricant does not occur. If she didn’t usually offer that act it would not necessarily be an essential for Shannan. Who knows, maybe a refusal to do that without lube kicked everything off.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

EagleEye, Pak already had a conviction related to human trafficking. He give this absolute ******** claim he had been paid a to go and meet a rich Chinese girl in Sri Lanka and has told two different versions of why. Initially he said he was paid to ‘help her with her English’ as she flew to the United States but she revealed to him just as they were boarding the plane that she was entering the US illegally and he couldn’t back out. He claimed in later interviews that he was paid to ‘go and act as cover’ so she wouldn’t attract attention at customs, although he still claimed despite knowing that he had no idea she was entering illegally. All wide eyed innocent.

It’s all a load of ****. He was trafficking her, probably unwillingly into the US to be put to work essentially as a slave in a brothel. I was writing quite a long post why I am certain about that, things like, visas & routes. I was writing a massive long post explaining why, but thought that would clog the thread more than I already am. But if you want to know, happy to say on PM.

He would have known full well that he was bringing her over here to be imprisoned as an enforced sex slave who would likely also be exposed to torture, extreme violence, rape and worse. He was there to protect the gangs asset and would have been prepared to use threats, violence, intimidation ANYTHING to get her on that plane and into the US.

He was prepared to do that to another human. I have absolutely no problem at all with believing he was prepared to go a step further and source girls to be killed immediately with his full knowledge. He would obviously have been paid handsomely for that. He may have stayed to join in for his kicks. But if his job was to bring her there, it would logically be his job to take her away when deceased too.

There is no reason Shannan shouldn’t have made those requests alone. It is usually the woman who knows in advance that lube is needed for obvious reasons. Playing cards and cocaine are a known hooker method of stringing out ‘dates’ for extra cash. Even for non-hookers, playing cards on coke is an actual thing which is apparently strangely pleasurable. Not done that one meself. But on his misspent yoof, my husband used to do coke and play cards all night with his flat mate Hairy Dave. And believe me Hairy Dave is not in anyway near as attractive and pleasant company as Shannan. The hours just melt away, it’s sort of hypnotic. You can feel like you’ve been playing for 20 mins but 5 hours will have gone by. Strings the date out, more money, might make a John buy more coke. It’s kind of a con.

Both, for very different reasons, are exactly what a hooker would request herself if a date was going badly. (Trying not to be crude). She could have requested by text or IM.

Anyway, Shannan and Brewer went out BEFORE Pak was asked to go to CVS. And she asked for KY, Baby Oil and playing cards, not condoms. Brewer and Shannan didn’t leave Oak Beach on their errand but the CVS is in South Bay. Attached relevant page from Lost Girls re items and timings. Pak said he assumed SG & JB went to buy drugs off an OB resident. I assumed Hackett.

KY jelly - women in their 20s rarely actually NEED lube unless it is for one specific sexual act where natural lubricant does not occur. If she didn’t usually offer that act it would not necessarily be an essential for Shannan. Who knows, maybe a refusal to do that without lube kicked everything off.

Appreciate your perspective, please DM me so we can continue the conversation, I'd definitely like to hear more of your thoughts. As I said, I think Pak is shady, definitely a bad guy whose moral compass is way off. I thought the same thing about the Chinese girl, that she was most likely destined to be a massage parlor slave in Queens somewhere.

As far as the KY jelly, I think sex workers would NEED that regardless of their age. The human body is not capable of turning on arousal when one is not aroused. Now, look at Joe Brewer or any of the other slobs soliciting prostitutes, I don't think most women would be aroused by these types. Can't speak on the card much, it seems arbitrary but hey you say it's a real thing.

We've still yet to establish what substances were consumed that night, Coke wouldn't make her uncoordinated and confused, paranoid, yes but it wouldn't cause her to lose her balance and motor function.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

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@Mopac Megalo Is there a reason the recent episode we are discussing was pulled? Care to share with us listeners?

 

[hawkshaw]

was it pulled or is it you can't find it? Which episode are you speaking of?