Girlinterrupted
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Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2
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Girlinterrupted
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I have no idea how that last post (just quoting) happened...not intentional...maybe the WS equivalent of a pocket dial :/ Apologies.
I've been reading alot.
As soon as I put the pieces together I'll do a better job but here's something.
For me, this started with Ruis. He had a very big operation going on. Like RICO size.
And for every Ruis a PO catches, or a fed operation grabs, there's a bigger Ruis. I'm not very articulate atm...
here are a couple links to stir things around a bit. KING-SIZED BUST – ‘LATIN’ GANG NAILED IN L.I. DRUG OP
The reason I point to this link is because it's Suffolk County, all the names we've come to know and love. But it has ties to NJ.
But the part that illustrates what I'm starting to see, the real mindfk - I can give you at least one name on that list of arestees picked up by SCPD in a drug trafficking gang bust, that is linked directly back to Ellenville, where the Gilbert family lived.
But not just anywhere in Ellenville.
Efrain Irizarry, listed as one of the Latin Kings that was arrested in that article, actually lived at 137 Centre Street in Ellenville.
That's the house the Gilberts all lived in before the girls moved out.
That is the tip of an iceberg that I've been gnawing on for days.
Sarra had a baby w Manny years ago. She lost custody. Before that happened, this happened. Drug sweep nets 17 suspects; two appeared in video with assault rifle
If you scroll down to the list of ppl who were arrested, you'll see Emanuel Martinez. That's Manny, the boyfriend who fathered a child with Sarra. If you scroll down further, you'll see Sarra was picked up in that bust - with her first name misspelled. Sarra was let off but Manny was arrested. And he made a deal.
These busts are OCDETF (Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Forces) which are not new. But they really start to kick into high gear in the late 90s through the 2000s. The official description for an OCDETF operation is that it "identifies, disrupts, and dismantles the highest-level drug traffickers, money launderers, gangs, and transnational criminal organizations that threaten the United States by using a prosecutor-led, intelligence-driven, multi-agency approach that leverages the strengths of federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies against criminal networks".
And oh boy. When they say multi-agency that uses federal, state and local law enforcement, they really mean it. FBI, DEA, Homeland Security, ICE, Postal Inspection lol. Everyone from the local sheriff to the AG come out guns blazing, ready to make those big busts to make those big career moves, picking up CIs anywhere they can find them and NO ONE is communicating outside of their own people. The amount of times I've said "This has to be some weird AI trap I've fallen into" because its the same names, the same busts, the same plea deals ppl are getting. It's like a human centipede of crime. Sorry. That was a bit much.
Ruis. After he made his first deal and then sued the HCPO (DeFazio) for 300k for services and goods, he is represented by a relative of a resident of Oak Beach. The case is DeFazio v Newman.
I posted somewhere asking about Amanda Burns. I wanted to know why John Ray was asking Pak in his deposition about the 2005 murder of a 21 year old girl in Troy, NY who had never been named in any regard. They caught the guy, Alberto "AJ" Rivera and he went to jail. I read into the case, and nope. Just like everything else - connected to drugs, gangs and no real protocol for CIs.
Rivera had made a deal to get out of prison - he agreed to become an informant on the Latin Kings - specifically two (one who tracks right back to Ellenville, named Lugo). But, being a lifelong criminal, he had committed arson (amongst many other things) and believed Amanda was going to flip on him to LE about that arson. So after he made a deal to flip on the Latin Kings and got out, he murdered her. In a mind bending twist he then called his LE connection to say he thought the Latin Kings had found out he was an informant and he needed protection. So Troy LE picks him up and brings him to a safe house in Schenectady. Next day they find Amanda dead and come back to arrest him. He makes another deal. His sentencing is over ruled and he pleads way down. My brain explodes.
Why Ray singled that mess out I'm still not sure. There's not alot on Amanda Burns but it's a county away from where Shannan grew up and involves informants.
These big drug sweeps and RICO indictments and bust ups of sex, cocaine, fentynal, crack, heroin, trafficking go from Maine to New Hampshire, Connecticut, Pennsylvania New York (not just nyc or Suffolk County - but all over the state) and all the way to NC.
When you have that many states, that many counties, that many feds and task forces operating in what can turn into a very gray area with gangs, sex workers, and drug trafficking...things can get tangled up.
As my parents used to say, this is all going to end in tears.
I don't think this has been about some sadistic madman hunting sex workers. I think alot of people made money off of that and SCPD went right along with all the salacious rumors bc it bought them time to figure out how big of a SNAFU they were looking at. And it's big.
It's like a hydra that's become massive but no one realized bc for every proud "bust" or "sweep" one of the tentacles makes, there are accolades and promotions for that tentacle, but none of the other tentacles are involved or aware plus there's a whole new crop of willing CIs looking to cut a deal.
I'm not in any way minimizing the fact that human beings have been murdered. But I think it has alot more to do with LE fighting (competing?) for power and money against organized crime. And many of the victims are pawns in that game.
When you have all that chaos, all those egos and people willing to do whatever it takes to climb the ladder on either side, maybe a real psycopath has been able to chameleon themselves into the mix.
But when I spend hours reading casefiles and seeing criminals being gifted w money or time served sentences, and I remember that a baby was among those victims, and then I look at Wikipedia and see Mari Gilbert's occupation listed as "activist" and "TV personality", nothing is OK. Enough is enough.
I've been reading alot.
As soon as I put the pieces together I'll do a better job but here's something.
For me, this started with Ruis. He had a very big operation going on. Like RICO size.
And for every Ruis a PO catches, or a fed operation grabs, there's a bigger Ruis. I'm not very articulate atm...
here are a couple links to stir things around a bit. KING-SIZED BUST – ‘LATIN’ GANG NAILED IN L.I. DRUG OP
The reason I point to this link is because it's Suffolk County, all the names we've come to know and love. But it has ties to NJ.
But the part that illustrates what I'm starting to see, the real mindfk - I can give you at least one name on that list of arestees picked up by SCPD in a drug trafficking gang bust, that is linked directly back to Ellenville, where the Gilbert family lived.
But not just anywhere in Ellenville.
Efrain Irizarry, listed as one of the Latin Kings that was arrested in that article, actually lived at 137 Centre Street in Ellenville.
That's the house the Gilberts all lived in before the girls moved out.
That is the tip of an iceberg that I've been gnawing on for days.
Sarra had a baby w Manny years ago. She lost custody. Before that happened, this happened. Drug sweep nets 17 suspects; two appeared in video with assault rifle
If you scroll down to the list of ppl who were arrested, you'll see Emanuel Martinez. That's Manny, the boyfriend who fathered a child with Sarra. If you scroll down further, you'll see Sarra was picked up in that bust - with her first name misspelled. Sarra was let off but Manny was arrested. And he made a deal.
These busts are OCDETF (Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Forces) which are not new. But they really start to kick into high gear in the late 90s through the 2000s. The official description for an OCDETF operation is that it "identifies, disrupts, and dismantles the highest-level drug traffickers, money launderers, gangs, and transnational criminal organizations that threaten the United States by using a prosecutor-led, intelligence-driven, multi-agency approach that leverages the strengths of federal, state, and local law enforcement agencies against criminal networks".
And oh boy. When they say multi-agency that uses federal, state and local law enforcement, they really mean it. FBI, DEA, Homeland Security, ICE, Postal Inspection lol. Everyone from the local sheriff to the AG come out guns blazing, ready to make those big busts to make those big career moves, picking up CIs anywhere they can find them and NO ONE is communicating outside of their own people. The amount of times I've said "This has to be some weird AI trap I've fallen into" because its the same names, the same busts, the same plea deals ppl are getting. It's like a human centipede of crime. Sorry. That was a bit much.
Ruis. After he made his first deal and then sued the HCPO (DeFazio) for 300k for services and goods, he is represented by a relative of a resident of Oak Beach. The case is DeFazio v Newman.
I posted somewhere asking about Amanda Burns. I wanted to know why John Ray was asking Pak in his deposition about the 2005 murder of a 21 year old girl in Troy, NY who had never been named in any regard. They caught the guy, Alberto "AJ" Rivera and he went to jail. I read into the case, and nope. Just like everything else - connected to drugs, gangs and no real protocol for CIs.
Rivera had made a deal to get out of prison - he agreed to become an informant on the Latin Kings - specifically two (one who tracks right back to Ellenville, named Lugo). But, being a lifelong criminal, he had committed arson (amongst many other things) and believed Amanda was going to flip on him to LE about that arson. So after he made a deal to flip on the Latin Kings and got out, he murdered her. In a mind bending twist he then called his LE connection to say he thought the Latin Kings had found out he was an informant and he needed protection. So Troy LE picks him up and brings him to a safe house in Schenectady. Next day they find Amanda dead and come back to arrest him. He makes another deal. His sentencing is over ruled and he pleads way down. My brain explodes.
Why Ray singled that mess out I'm still not sure. There's not alot on Amanda Burns but it's a county away from where Shannan grew up and involves informants.
These big drug sweeps and RICO indictments and bust ups of sex, cocaine, fentynal, crack, heroin, trafficking go from Maine to New Hampshire, Connecticut, Pennsylvania New York (not just nyc or Suffolk County - but all over the state) and all the way to NC.
When you have that many states, that many counties, that many feds and task forces operating in what can turn into a very gray area with gangs, sex workers, and drug trafficking...things can get tangled up.
As my parents used to say, this is all going to end in tears.
I don't think this has been about some sadistic madman hunting sex workers. I think alot of people made money off of that and SCPD went right along with all the salacious rumors bc it bought them time to figure out how big of a SNAFU they were looking at. And it's big.
It's like a hydra that's become massive but no one realized bc for every proud "bust" or "sweep" one of the tentacles makes, there are accolades and promotions for that tentacle, but none of the other tentacles are involved or aware plus there's a whole new crop of willing CIs looking to cut a deal.
I'm not in any way minimizing the fact that human beings have been murdered. But I think it has alot more to do with LE fighting (competing?) for power and money against organized crime. And many of the victims are pawns in that game.
When you have all that chaos, all those egos and people willing to do whatever it takes to climb the ladder on either side, maybe a real psycopath has been able to chameleon themselves into the mix.
But when I spend hours reading casefiles and seeing criminals being gifted w money or time served sentences, and I remember that a baby was among those victims, and then I look at Wikipedia and see Mari Gilbert's occupation listed as "activist" and "TV personality", nothing is OK. Enough is enough.
Girlinterrupted
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You're right, Windsor
But in order to do that, to zoom in on what happened that night/early morning, I struggle with the lack of objective fact available.
There are no tapes, so we actually have no idea who came in or out of that gate.
All the Ray statements and depositions contradict each other so glaringly that one might wonder if it's not by design; like a coordinated effort to keep the truth buried by discrediting eachother.
If everyone is an unreliable narrator, then where do you start?
Right now we have a huge chalkboard covered top to bottom in 10 years' worth of statements, POIs, theories, circumstantial evidence etc (I'm dating myself here, are chalkboards still a thing lol?)
At least for me it becomes hard not to start to zoom out to find data that is not subjective and can be backed up by hard evidence.
In taking that approach, there's a danger of losing focus on the reason we're all here.
My degree is in journalism (do not hold this against me.)
At the most basic level, you learn the
5 Ws: who, what, where, why, when.
So, say we make this a project.
We erase the entire chalkboard.
Everything from the beginning.
Start with a nice clean board and try to construct what we can ausing only objective truth.
Please correct or edit anything I lay out. Really.
So First the 5 Ws:
Who: Shannan Gilbert
What: Shannan Gilbert travels to Oak Beach 4/30 - 5/1 with a driver for a work related meeting. They arrive at approx 2am. By approx 5am Shannan is on a call with LE requesting emergency assistance. Neighbors give various reports of seeing her as she fled. Her mother files a missing person report shortly thereafter. Shannan's skeletal remains are found December 23, 2012 in a marsh approx half a mile from where she was last seen.
Where: Manhattan and Oak Beach
Why:
When: 4/30/10 - 5/1/10
Start with only what can be considered absolute truth.
Where do we start?
Friday, April 30th?
Diaz claims that he and Shannan went to a movie in Jersey City and then she left to go to work.
That's according to Kolker's account of Diaz' account in Lost Girls.
Did she get a call? Was this a pre-existing plan w Pak?
Is Diaz reliable? Is Kolker?
(Im actually asking - not being snarky - tone sometimes gets lost in writing.)
8pm - 2am we have only what Pak tells us and phone records (if they exist)
Unproven Assertions Made by Pak in Deposition to John Ray, representing the estate of Shannan Gilbert in a civil case against CPH.:
Shannan arrives via PATH train into Manhattan around 8pm and meets Pak in his vehicle.
Shannan and Pak wait in the car together for business. Shannan uses one phone to post and update ads and pics and a second one (a flip phone) designated for clients to call.
This goes on for hours with no calls and Shannan becomes frustrated.
Objective Truths:
The night of Friday, April 30th in Manhattan was busy. It was a clear night, the high had been 79f and the low was 64f. Gorgeous weather to kick off the weekend.
The weather was not the only reason this was a very busy weekend in Manhattan.
This weekend was the Tribecca Film Festival Awards and After Party at the Union Square W Hotel.
The Tribecca Film Festival is NYC's answer to Cannes. Robert Deneiro organizes it.
85 feature-length and 47 short film selections are nominated and shown from April 21st through May 2, 2010.
That last weekend is when the awards are announced. And the after party is a very big deal.
Name any celebrity at that time and they were in Manhattan and partying the entire weekend.
Back to Unproven Assertions Made by Pak:
Finally, after hours of sitting and waiting, Joseph Brewer calls Shannan on her phone to ask her to "come party".
This was the first call of the night.
Except Pak also mentions at another point in the depo that Shannan had a VERY brief outcall w an unamed person before the trip out to OB.
Pak says she was finished within 20 min and walked back to the car iirc.
There is no further info offered,
Ray never pushes, he never brings up the discrepancy.
Objective Truths and Resulting Questions:
It is highly doubtful that Shannan had a 20 minute meeting involving sex work with a client.
According to Pak he waited in the same spot for her and she met him back at that spot after she finished this meeting. The only way that is feasible is if it were a car date or some back alley date - Shannan did not advertise those services nor would it be possible at that time of night in the city. Too busy.
So who, where, when, why and what was this very brief meeting?
My Brain:
I believe Pak is the kind of unreliable narrator that uses a mixture of truth and lies in order to keep things murky.
I think that first meeting was a truth.
He couldve easily left it out.
I think he included it in order to cover for phone records btwn Shannan and Pak while they were supposedly in the car together for all those hours.
And possibly to cover for phone records that would indicate there was another person(s?) involved that night before the trip out to OB.
We never get a clear timeline on how that came to be.
Still, I'm just throwing spaghetti against the wall here. Or sketching on the chalkboard. I have nothing but Pak's words and Ray's depo to go by on any of this.
Phone records would help ALOT from that night. I'm not sure if any verifiable records have been released.
Back To Unproven Assertions:
Shannan went to a place to meet someone for some reason before OB.
This was a brief meeting and Shannan did not require Pak to drive her there.
She returned to Pak's car afterward.
It is unclear whether communication with Brewer occurred prior to or after this meeting.
Objective Truth:
Friday night traffic driving out East is going to be heavy, even at midnight. It's 50 miles from midtown Manhattan to OB. It would be a 2 hour drive.
According to Pak:
Pak drives with Shannan in his vehicle to the address provided by Brewer.
They arrive by 2am.
Please correct anything I've written so far. The chalkboard is pretty clear.
If we use the 5 Ws and distinguish between Objective Truth and Unproven Asserions, what comes next?
But in order to do that, to zoom in on what happened that night/early morning, I struggle with the lack of objective fact available.
There are no tapes, so we actually have no idea who came in or out of that gate.
All the Ray statements and depositions contradict each other so glaringly that one might wonder if it's not by design; like a coordinated effort to keep the truth buried by discrediting eachother.
If everyone is an unreliable narrator, then where do you start?
Right now we have a huge chalkboard covered top to bottom in 10 years' worth of statements, POIs, theories, circumstantial evidence etc (I'm dating myself here, are chalkboards still a thing lol?)
At least for me it becomes hard not to start to zoom out to find data that is not subjective and can be backed up by hard evidence.
In taking that approach, there's a danger of losing focus on the reason we're all here.
My degree is in journalism (do not hold this against me.)
At the most basic level, you learn the
5 Ws: who, what, where, why, when.
So, say we make this a project.
We erase the entire chalkboard.
Everything from the beginning.
Start with a nice clean board and try to construct what we can ausing only objective truth.
Please correct or edit anything I lay out. Really.
So First the 5 Ws:
Who: Shannan Gilbert
What: Shannan Gilbert travels to Oak Beach 4/30 - 5/1 with a driver for a work related meeting. They arrive at approx 2am. By approx 5am Shannan is on a call with LE requesting emergency assistance. Neighbors give various reports of seeing her as she fled. Her mother files a missing person report shortly thereafter. Shannan's skeletal remains are found December 23, 2012 in a marsh approx half a mile from where she was last seen.
Where: Manhattan and Oak Beach
Why:
When: 4/30/10 - 5/1/10
Start with only what can be considered absolute truth.
Where do we start?
Friday, April 30th?
Diaz claims that he and Shannan went to a movie in Jersey City and then she left to go to work.
That's according to Kolker's account of Diaz' account in Lost Girls.
Did she get a call? Was this a pre-existing plan w Pak?
Is Diaz reliable? Is Kolker?
(Im actually asking - not being snarky - tone sometimes gets lost in writing.)
8pm - 2am we have only what Pak tells us and phone records (if they exist)
Unproven Assertions Made by Pak in Deposition to John Ray, representing the estate of Shannan Gilbert in a civil case against CPH.:
Shannan arrives via PATH train into Manhattan around 8pm and meets Pak in his vehicle.
Shannan and Pak wait in the car together for business. Shannan uses one phone to post and update ads and pics and a second one (a flip phone) designated for clients to call.
This goes on for hours with no calls and Shannan becomes frustrated.
Objective Truths:
The night of Friday, April 30th in Manhattan was busy. It was a clear night, the high had been 79f and the low was 64f. Gorgeous weather to kick off the weekend.
The weather was not the only reason this was a very busy weekend in Manhattan.
This weekend was the Tribecca Film Festival Awards and After Party at the Union Square W Hotel.
The Tribecca Film Festival is NYC's answer to Cannes. Robert Deneiro organizes it.
85 feature-length and 47 short film selections are nominated and shown from April 21st through May 2, 2010.
That last weekend is when the awards are announced. And the after party is a very big deal.
Name any celebrity at that time and they were in Manhattan and partying the entire weekend.
Back to Unproven Assertions Made by Pak:
Finally, after hours of sitting and waiting, Joseph Brewer calls Shannan on her phone to ask her to "come party".
This was the first call of the night.
Except Pak also mentions at another point in the depo that Shannan had a VERY brief outcall w an unamed person before the trip out to OB.
Pak says she was finished within 20 min and walked back to the car iirc.
There is no further info offered,
Ray never pushes, he never brings up the discrepancy.
Objective Truths and Resulting Questions:
It is highly doubtful that Shannan had a 20 minute meeting involving sex work with a client.
According to Pak he waited in the same spot for her and she met him back at that spot after she finished this meeting. The only way that is feasible is if it were a car date or some back alley date - Shannan did not advertise those services nor would it be possible at that time of night in the city. Too busy.
So who, where, when, why and what was this very brief meeting?
My Brain:
I believe Pak is the kind of unreliable narrator that uses a mixture of truth and lies in order to keep things murky.
I think that first meeting was a truth.
He couldve easily left it out.
I think he included it in order to cover for phone records btwn Shannan and Pak while they were supposedly in the car together for all those hours.
And possibly to cover for phone records that would indicate there was another person(s?) involved that night before the trip out to OB.
We never get a clear timeline on how that came to be.
Still, I'm just throwing spaghetti against the wall here. Or sketching on the chalkboard. I have nothing but Pak's words and Ray's depo to go by on any of this.
Phone records would help ALOT from that night. I'm not sure if any verifiable records have been released.
Back To Unproven Assertions:
Shannan went to a place to meet someone for some reason before OB.
This was a brief meeting and Shannan did not require Pak to drive her there.
She returned to Pak's car afterward.
It is unclear whether communication with Brewer occurred prior to or after this meeting.
Objective Truth:
Friday night traffic driving out East is going to be heavy, even at midnight. It's 50 miles from midtown Manhattan to OB. It would be a 2 hour drive.
According to Pak:
Pak drives with Shannan in his vehicle to the address provided by Brewer.
They arrive by 2am.
Please correct anything I've written so far. The chalkboard is pretty clear.
If we use the 5 Ws and distinguish between Objective Truth and Unproven Asserions, what comes next?
Excellent work Girl,
Regarding Pak,
1)I believe he is the most important POI,
2) I do not believe most things he says. He is always protecting himself.
3) It is my understanding that Pak made the date for Shannan with Brewer, which to me implies a prior relationship between Brewer and Pak.
4) Shannan understood time is money in her industry, the idea of spending two hours driving to Oak Beach does not make sense.
5) Since Shannan runs away from Pak and Brewer's, it implies she saw them both as threats. If she was only afraid of Brewer, she would see Pak as a safety net. However she sees both men as threats, why? Did she see them as fellow accomplices threatening her. Her actions say that.
Regarding Pak,
1)I believe he is the most important POI,
2) I do not believe most things he says. He is always protecting himself.
3) It is my understanding that Pak made the date for Shannan with Brewer, which to me implies a prior relationship between Brewer and Pak.
4) Shannan understood time is money in her industry, the idea of spending two hours driving to Oak Beach does not make sense.
5) Since Shannan runs away from Pak and Brewer's, it implies she saw them both as threats. If she was only afraid of Brewer, she would see Pak as a safety net. However she sees both men as threats, why? Did she see them as fellow accomplices threatening her. Her actions say that.
@Girlinterrupted, amazing work. I've read it and been mulling over what you said, along with @WINDSOR, and other members here.
What if this does all have to do with drugs, more than anything. And Latin Kings. More of a drug-running situation, with "perks," rather than prostitution with drug "perks."
These are the things I've been thinking about, the last few weeks:
*What if Shannan was a CI, with no protection from being in the middle of dangerous work. Even Diaz is involved/has connections with Ruis
*What if Pak picked up Shannan from NJ, along with drugs (maybe coke) (connection to Ruis)
*What if Pak lied and said they met up in NYC to avoid trafficking charges (prior history)
*What if Shannan delivered drugs in NYC (short "date," probably not sexual?)
*What if Brewer was looking for coke and maybe something else, hence trip to LI
*What if Shannan did not bring as much drugs as Brewer wanted, and would only consent to a particular sexual act which made him wonder if she was a man (but, obviously not, perhaps she only had intercourse with Diaz)
*CVS thing makes no sense, and supposed call/request for lube could be related to sex act where it would have been necessary, for sure
*Guys find out she is CI/something goes wrong
*She's in serious fear for her life, runs...
*Hackett's stuff is at least a partial pile of baloney, but he has been prescribing/handing out opiates perhaps, maybe even knows Ruis(?)
*All the guys are in trouble for having made deals with Shannan and drug delivery, decision is made to off Shannan
*I think Pak would be the one to do this, if he got an order from Ruis. She's found not too far from a roadway in the marsh(?) Killed in car, and dumped, personal items kept, maybe by Pak, at first. Diaz doesn't know Shannan was offed, but suspects, afraid for his own life.
Some Oak Beach residents know stuff is going on, but don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, get offed, themselves. Others perhaps don't really know, but also don't want to get dragged in, or get in trouble.
I hope the Feds are all over this.
These are the only things that make sense to me, right now. Thoughts? Please correct me if needed, my memory has been bad, lately.
What if this does all have to do with drugs, more than anything. And Latin Kings. More of a drug-running situation, with "perks," rather than prostitution with drug "perks."
These are the things I've been thinking about, the last few weeks:
*What if Shannan was a CI, with no protection from being in the middle of dangerous work. Even Diaz is involved/has connections with Ruis
*What if Pak picked up Shannan from NJ, along with drugs (maybe coke) (connection to Ruis)
*What if Pak lied and said they met up in NYC to avoid trafficking charges (prior history)
*What if Shannan delivered drugs in NYC (short "date," probably not sexual?)
*What if Brewer was looking for coke and maybe something else, hence trip to LI
*What if Shannan did not bring as much drugs as Brewer wanted, and would only consent to a particular sexual act which made him wonder if she was a man (but, obviously not, perhaps she only had intercourse with Diaz)
*CVS thing makes no sense, and supposed call/request for lube could be related to sex act where it would have been necessary, for sure
*Guys find out she is CI/something goes wrong
*She's in serious fear for her life, runs...
*Hackett's stuff is at least a partial pile of baloney, but he has been prescribing/handing out opiates perhaps, maybe even knows Ruis(?)
*All the guys are in trouble for having made deals with Shannan and drug delivery, decision is made to off Shannan
*I think Pak would be the one to do this, if he got an order from Ruis. She's found not too far from a roadway in the marsh(?) Killed in car, and dumped, personal items kept, maybe by Pak, at first. Diaz doesn't know Shannan was offed, but suspects, afraid for his own life.
Some Oak Beach residents know stuff is going on, but don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole, get offed, themselves. Others perhaps don't really know, but also don't want to get dragged in, or get in trouble.
I hope the Feds are all over this.
These are the only things that make sense to me, right now. Thoughts? Please correct me if needed, my memory has been bad, lately.
Last edited:
PreciousDust
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"*Hackett's stuff is at least a partial pile of baloney, but he has been prescribing/handing out opiates perhaps, maybe even knows Ruis(?)"
From my view, Hackett doesn't know Ruis or anyone like Ruis. Hackett is a well-off Long Island eccentric who is retired and living with his wife; he's not interested in prostitutes or organized crime. He lied about calling Mari, but he didn't even meet Shannan; it's just a shame that Kolker bought into the Hackett stuff (and now it's preserved forever in a really bad film).
Brewer is not much different or, I should say, the difference is who he knows. When people say that GB4 and Shannan aren't connected, I'd agree that the person who strangled four women and dumped them at Gilgo did not kill SG (assuming, among other things, that the police are telling the truth when they say strangulation). But the rebuttal, which says "how can a Craiglist escort yell to 911 "they're trying to kill me" and wind up dead just down the road from where two murdered Craigslist escorts are buried, and where two more will be buried over the coming year, and it not be somehow connected??", well, that's a pretty compelling argument as well. It's too big of a coincidence, I think many people can sort of sense that. Brewer, also a well-off Long Island eccentric, probably wouldn't know someone like Ruis either, but he may know people who do, and those people may know all about SG's death, and also about who killed the GB4.
From my view, Hackett doesn't know Ruis or anyone like Ruis. Hackett is a well-off Long Island eccentric who is retired and living with his wife; he's not interested in prostitutes or organized crime. He lied about calling Mari, but he didn't even meet Shannan; it's just a shame that Kolker bought into the Hackett stuff (and now it's preserved forever in a really bad film).
Brewer is not much different or, I should say, the difference is who he knows. When people say that GB4 and Shannan aren't connected, I'd agree that the person who strangled four women and dumped them at Gilgo did not kill SG (assuming, among other things, that the police are telling the truth when they say strangulation). But the rebuttal, which says "how can a Craiglist escort yell to 911 "they're trying to kill me" and wind up dead just down the road from where two murdered Craigslist escorts are buried, and where two more will be buried over the coming year, and it not be somehow connected??", well, that's a pretty compelling argument as well. It's too big of a coincidence, I think many people can sort of sense that. Brewer, also a well-off Long Island eccentric, probably wouldn't know someone like Ruis either, but he may know people who do, and those people may know all about SG's death, and also about who killed the GB4.
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PillowofWinds
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Why isn't Hackett saying much? If he never met her, why are others saying he said he treated/sedated her? Why are they pegging everything on him? I have never thought that he was solely, completely complicit. Based on what's been said, I have thought that he played a role in drugging her. But of course, I do not know. He must have dirt on a lot of folks at Oak Beach since he is so nosey and had lived there a long time and seems to have a lot of close relationships there. Did he agree to take the heat for awhile to cover for his buddies for some sort of payoff? So many puzzle pieces at Oak Beach.
In my mind, IMO, I subscribe to the thought that...you never know who knows who, and especially if someone dips their toes in the water of illegal stuff, connections are made. I think that you're right, I don't believe Hackett would know Ruis, personally. But, maybe he knew someone who knew someone up the line.
My reasoning for this, is that Hackett may be well-to-do...but, where did that money come from? He didn't seem to be a doctor with a regular, booming practice, with a trail of reviews, connections to hospitals, etc. As for interest in prostitutes, as far as I remember his father wrote a book detailing some stories. (As far as we know Hackett's father wrote it, not Hackett himself.) I think the whole worry for Hackett would be scrutinizing his years of service as a doctor, what records he kept, lawsuits from the past, getting fired from associations he worked with...IMO he was such a good liar that he worked his way up into big jobs that he had no real credentials for, those places fired him knowing they would have egg on their faces (and possible lawsuits) if someone from the public was to file malpractice and they would have to explain how they managed to hire someone unqualified. Everyone just accepted who he said he was--a doctor (D.O.), even if earlier lawsuit said he was an M.D. He probably kept a small emergency kit in his house to "treat" neighbors, but if he was a pro, I would think there would be paperwork/receipts for treatment, for Hackett to protect himself. Stick needles in people willy-nilly, without a patient file, allergies, insurance, etc. just doesn't smell right to me. But, it does smell right if you're doing it without wanting a paper trail, and just acquiring some of the narcotics from somewhere illegal. Just IMO. Hackett = drugs, sketchy history, and people he had a bad relationship with in Oak Beach. I think ASIDE from SG, his past would be enough for him to deny, deny, deny, and try to get as far out of the way from Oak Beach as possible.
As for Brewer, again, who knows who he knows or has known. If he's procured drugs, or had a history of it in the past. If he was worried about any people he knew who would see him as a rat. Enough to deny, deny, deny.
Pak...if he was drug running, in addition to providing transit for prostitutes, he'd be in big trouble with his higher ups. Enough to deny, deny, deny.
So, for me, (at the moment, at least), I'm guessing SG's death unfortunately has links to a bigger drug running/prostitution issue. She unfortunately was just too close to the flame, and stuck in a bad spot with no way out at the time, that is what I feel at the moment.
Also, I don't think the GB4 are related to SG's death, unless other info comes forward, I think they are still 2 separate, and tragic, things.
ListeningAndWatching
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I have a copy of that book you mentioned, the one written by CPH’s father. There were a couple of interesting things worth noting about it. I read it years ago so I shall have to refresh to find the passages that stood out.
I haven't started on that book, anything you have to share would be interesting to read! I know it's been touched upon in other threads, but since the ball is rolling a little again, right now, what they hey, why not.
I did start reading the "Confessions of the Oak Beach Drifter,"...I skipped to the end to read about the parts with Brewer. I know there's no way to verify accuracy, but I did find it interesting the mention of the cocaine habit, prostitutes, strippers, and views toward women. Very much a different side to the guy who was laughing it up on the MacKay podcasts.
In the meantime, someone was trolling over at the LISK reddit forum. I read there, but don't post. A person, OakSailor, was trolling/taunting/trying to make it look like they were LISK. They have since deleted their profile...and another Reddit user (unknown) said it was Brewer trolling. No idea if any of this has basis in fact, just alerting to what I saw.
And I saved OakSailor's comments. Before they were deleted. In case they were needed, or useful to authorities, later.
I did start reading the "Confessions of the Oak Beach Drifter,"...I skipped to the end to read about the parts with Brewer. I know there's no way to verify accuracy, but I did find it interesting the mention of the cocaine habit, prostitutes, strippers, and views toward women. Very much a different side to the guy who was laughing it up on the MacKay podcasts.
In the meantime, someone was trolling over at the LISK reddit forum. I read there, but don't post. A person, OakSailor, was trolling/taunting/trying to make it look like they were LISK. They have since deleted their profile...and another Reddit user (unknown) said it was Brewer trolling. No idea if any of this has basis in fact, just alerting to what I saw.
And I saved OakSailor's comments. Before they were deleted. In case they were needed, or useful to authorities, later.
IMO, the chances of Shannan being a CI are slim and none. Why?
1) Shannan was not connected to any big organization, she worked primarily as an independent.
2) She made good money at her trade, She would be relatively costly for LE to turn her into a CI.
3) If she would have been a CI, she would call her handler before calling 911.
4) If she was a CI, some Police force, would be investigating to see what happened to her.
1) Shannan was not connected to any big organization, she worked primarily as an independent.
2) She made good money at her trade, She would be relatively costly for LE to turn her into a CI.
3) If she would have been a CI, she would call her handler before calling 911.
4) If she was a CI, some Police force, would be investigating to see what happened to her.
ListeningAndWatching
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I’m going to have to skim quickly through the entire book sometime this week to get to that passage that I found somewhat relevant, it may be easy to miss as it wasn’t very long but it did definitely resonate strongly. Bear with me I have a lot of responsibilities so I don’t have a lot of free time. Gonna go grab it now. Ok got it, it’s 255 pages so the skimming will have to happen over the course of a few days.
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ListeningAndWatching
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Upon a quicker skimming I am reminded that there is not a great deal of structure to the book so this will take longer and I may have to completely re-read it to be thorough. Much like Warren’s ‘Confessions of the Oak Beach Drifter,’ there is a lot of mind-numbing irrelevant detail, and “much ado about nothing.” He does mention his son many times, and trips to Atlantic City, among other places, and a penchant for sex in the woods…
Girlinterrupted
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I've been trying to strip down my understanding to only what is objective fact. So for instance, we actually do know that Shannan was involved with a rather large operation because she was scheduled to testify as a co-defendant with Joseph Ruis.
The federal charges against him in that case related to prostitution were minimal compared to the drug distribution and money laundering charges (charges which he would again face once released from prison after serving 2 of the 5 years he was sentenced to after pleading down and setting up shop on the West coast).
Ruis was federally charged both times and his operations were extensive - he was not running a simple escort service. These are facts that are objective - the case files and sentencing are public information.
CIs are not actually that costly.
Embedding a law enforcement agent into an investigation is costly. This is why CIs are often utilized. They are not afforded the same protections as an agent would be. The use of Confidential Informants is highly problematic imo because it puts those people at risk. No one wants to be a CI. Usually they agree because they've been arrested themselves and are given a choice : cooperate or face charges.
For instance, a sex worker who was arrested twice in New Jersey in prostitution busts that were connected to an escort service that was part of a larger drug trafficking and money laundering syndicate that was under surveillance by the NJ Prosecutor's Office for a full year before arrests were made - that sex worker might agree to be an informant if it meant she'd be given immunity.
For me, Shannan being an independent worker is an example of something that has been introduced into this case as fact by Michael Pak, Alex Diaz and Kolker. We don't have, we've never had, any objective truth to substantiate this.
To be fair there is no proof either way - independent or still involved with a service - she wasn't filing tax returns - so we are left with the assurances of Pak. I can't accept Michael Pak as a source of truth.
So for me, there's a blank space there.
I don't have any facts to say whether she was independent or not.
In Pak's deposition he says Shannan was independent and on that night they were working independently.
But in the same deposition he claims after he left Oak Beach without Shannan, he went to a Dunkin Donuts to meet another driver and then used a Green Dot card to send money to the agency he worked for.
In another post I think I mentioned that if Shannan was in fact working as a CI, this could be a reason that 911 call is being withheld.
While CI's are not afforded the protection that undercover agents are, they do, as you said, have a relationship with a law officer (whether local, state or federal), a "handler", and that would be the person they supply information to.
If something took place that alerted Shannan she was being set up, she may not have had the chance to call that individual. Or perhaps she did and they were not available. Or perhaps that individual was part of the reason she realized she was in danger. That would explain the length of the call. Trying to communicate to a 911 dispatcher that she was working with (insert PO or PD or agency name here).
This is all speculation - I'm going against my own attempt to stick with only objective fact here
What I will never be willing to accept, however, is that Joseph Brewer called Shannan Gilbert for a simple outcall and that she accepted. It's too far, the money was not worth it (time, gas, plus Pak's cut), Shannan was in Manhattan and Brewer could've chosen from a multitude of sex workers that were within a 20 minute drive from him. Instead, he picked Shannan. And if, as you said, Shannan was making a good amount of money working independently, there's no logical way to account for her agreeing to a 4 hours worth of travel (there and back) to see a man she supposedly never met just for a few hundred bucks. She was in Manhattan on a Friday night. Doesn't add up.
If she wasn't working as a CI, she was in Oak Beach for more than sex. Something or someone that would make 4 hours of driving worthwhile.
ListeningAndWatching
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Yes.That part. It is public knowledge that MP was a human trafficker on an international scale. Anything he says is to C.H.A. Who tells a victim’s sister: “I have an alibi.” The mere choice of that word speaks volumes.
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I've been trying to strip down my understanding to only what is objective fact. So for instance, we actually do know that Shannan was involved with a rather large operation because she was scheduled to testify as a co-defendant with Joseph Ruis.
Words matter, if Shannan was a co-defendant, she was being charged with Ruis. She was not a witness for the prosecution. As a co-defendant under the 5th amendment she could not be compelled to testify. As a co-defendant Shannan was no threat to Ruis. Since Ruis was found guilty without Shannan being involved, her testimony was not crucial to the Ruis conviction. No reason for LE to turn her into a CI.
Ruis was federally charged both times and his operations were extensive - he was not running a simple escort service. These are facts that are objective - the case files and sentencing are public information.
Of course drugs and the sex-trade go hand in hand, buying and selling pleasure. Plus escorts and their drivers make an ideal delivery service.
Looking to discover a Ruis connection might be a blind alley.
Words matter, if Shannan was a co-defendant, she was being charged with Ruis. She was not a witness for the prosecution. As a co-defendant under the 5th amendment she could not be compelled to testify. As a co-defendant Shannan was no threat to Ruis. Since Ruis was found guilty without Shannan being involved, her testimony was not crucial to the Ruis conviction. No reason for LE to turn her into a CI.
Ruis was federally charged both times and his operations were extensive - he was not running a simple escort service. These are facts that are objective - the case files and sentencing are public information.
Of course drugs and the sex-trade go hand in hand, buying and selling pleasure. Plus escorts and their drivers make an ideal delivery service.
Looking to discover a Ruis connection might be a blind alley.
PreciousDust
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If Shannan had made a deal with prosecutors for Ruis info, and as part of the deal was going to be acquitted while Ruis got serious jail time, and Ruis found out about it, then Oak Beach would be a perfect place to snuff her. And time would be of the essence for Ruis, as he knew he'd be jailed very soon.
Pak and Brewer might both know about it, too, and so good reason to run away from both.
I think it's reasonable to rate Shannan's legal/criminal entanglements as a potential element of the case.
Pak and Brewer might both know about it, too, and so good reason to run away from both.
I think it's reasonable to rate Shannan's legal/criminal entanglements as a potential element of the case.
AgentDaleCooper
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Deleted by user. Need to do more research before my write up.
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Girlinterrupted
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