Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert

[fred&edna]

I do think in the case of MP you've got to put yourself in his position that night. I try to before jumping to conclusions. My personal view is the same as the poster above, there is more than probable cause for MP to abandon Shannan IF she was known to have these kind of episodes. I don't think that in itself makes him a lousy person. Obviously his choice of occupation does, and I think that clouds a lot of peoples judgements.

In regards to the security tapes, my personal belief is similar to the 911 calls. The LE has it, but there is a reason why its not being released. My left field theory on that is the only thing I can think of why that would be the case. That someone in Oak Beach doesn't belong there. Someone the locals may know as one name, but outside OB he's known as someone else who may be in WP. And with the release of the 911 tape, will come a name which will need to be redacted as he may be named by SG and visible on the tapes. The release of the tapes will lead to questions of "who is SCPD protecting?"

Just my thoughts.

I wonder if MP could have been more than "a tad" mad at SG... he was possibly tired of arguing with her, sick of chasing her down the streets, scared that LE was on their way... maybe so angry that he snapped. It's been argued that there wasn't enough time, but I don't know that we can trust info given to us by LE. It's also been argued that if MP harmed SG he wouldn't have returned to Oak Beach in the days that followed... I don't know if I believe that either.

JMO So many years have passed and we rehash the same ol info. There's still nothing concrete to prove anything

 

[WINDSOR]

Lots of great comments here,

Regarding the video from the gate house, it has been stated by LE that the video was deleted by somebody, and there is no record of the traffic in and out of Oak Beach for the period of time that we are concerned with. Some people have speculated CPH had access to the recording device and possibly had awareness or involvement with the deleting of the video records.

The fact that prostitution is illegal in New York State does not appear to be impacting negatively on the thousands of men and women who derive a portion of their livelihood in the sex-trade. Notice SCPD did not file any prostitution charges against MP when they interviewed him and gave him a lie detector test.

Pak returned to Oak Beach with Shannan's boyfriend Alex Diaz the next day, that points to a more that a relationship with Shannan and MP than strictly business.

Diaz tried to file a missing person's report on Shannan, it is believed that MP went with him to the police station to do the filing, so MP was not terrified by the police vis a vis his occupation.

Remember Kolker's book is his reporting of what people have told him, some people may have had reason to deceive Kolker.

LE could have brought charges against a lot of individuals, but if as many believe that SCPD is corrupt and involved in some way in this case, definitely they do not want a trial where law enforcement's alleged complicity would be laid bare.

Finally, I do not know anything for sure, I just look at probabilities of behavior.

Even if drug-addled, the basic human desire for self preservation is strong, Shannan was running from MP, she must of had a reason. She could not have been that 'doped-up' if she was able to call 911, knock on GC's door and run. Nobody has described her as delirious or acting in a psychotic manner. Her behavior could be described as consistent with someone who was very scared, not sure of her location and fearing for her life.

If you believe she died accidently how could she have traveled so far under the influence of those powerful drugs to have reached her final resting place by herself? Talk to somebody who has used those same drugs and see how energetic they felt.

The choice becomes she either was heavily drugged and not acting rationally, therefore she could not have traveled the distance she did, or she was not that drugged that heavily and was acting rationally. Cannot be both.

There are exceptions of course but most people under the heavy influence of drugs tend to either become placid, pass-out or rage and become violent in one place, running and asking for help is rare.



MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

Do you know for sure MP made the appointment with Brewer? If so I wonder if MP had ever brought other girls other than Shannon to Brewer..girls who also never left Oak beach

That last question holds the key to this case. My sense is the answer is yes. Regarding your first question. Nothing is for sure in this case but it has been alleged that is true, that MP was the connection. It is not unusual for men seeking prostitutes to deal with a go between such as MP.

MOO

 

[OnTheCase27]

Lots of great comments here,

Regarding the video from the gate house, it has been stated by LE that the video was deleted by somebody, and there is no record of the traffic in and out of Oak Beach for the period of time that we are concerned with. Some people have speculated CPH had access to the recording device and possibly had awareness or involvement with the deleting of the video records.

The fact that prostitution is illegal in New York State does not appear to be impacting negatively on the thousands of men and women who derive a portion of their livelihood in the sex-trade. Notice SCPD did not file any prostitution charges against MP when they interviewed him and gave him a lie detector test.

Pak returned to Oak Beach with Shannan's boyfriend Alex Diaz the next day, that points to a more that a relationship with Shannan and MP than strictly business.

Diaz tried to file a missing person's report on Shannan, it is believed that MP went with him to the police station to do the filing, so MP was not terrified by the police vis a vis his occupation.

Remember Kolker's book is his reporting of what people have told him, some people may have had reason to deceive Kolker.

LE could have brought charges against a lot of individuals, but if as many believe that SCPD is corrupt and involved in some way in this case, definitely they do not want a trial where law enforcement's alleged complicity would be laid bare.

Finally, I do not know anything for sure, I just look at probabilities of behavior.

Even if drug-addled, the basic human desire for self preservation is strong, Shannan was running from MP, she must of had a reason. She could not have been that 'doped-up' if she was able to call 911, knock on GC's door and run. Nobody has described her as delirious or acting in a psychotic manner. Her behavior could be described as consistent with someone who was very scared, not sure of her location and fearing for her life.

If you believe she died accidently how could she have traveled so far under the influence of those powerful drugs to have reached her final resting place by herself? Talk to somebody who has used those same drugs and see how energetic they felt.

The choice becomes she either was heavily drugged and not acting rationally, therefore she could not have traveled the distance she did, or she was not that drugged that heavily and was acting rationally. Cannot be both.

There are exceptions of course but most people under the heavy influence of drugs tend to either become placid, pass-out or rage and become violent in one place, running and asking for help is rare.



MOO

As a person who battled addiction early on in my adulthood I have heavily used narcotics of varying types like cocaine, ketamine, MDMA, Mushrooms, LSD. You have realize each drug has different effects and there is no one answer to what happens when someone uses them. To suggest someone who's using cocaine would become placid is not true. Someone who heavily used Ketamine might do that. They can get stuck in a K-Hole. However with the heavy use of cocaine I have had serve paranoia episodes where I truly thought my life might be in danger for no other reason than the cocaine use. To the point I left the place I was at 6 am after doing coke for the last 7 hours and drove 45 minutes back to my place simply to get away from the people I was with. None of the people I was with ever exhibited aggressive behavior toward me and they were instead trying to calm me. However, I could not get the paranoia out my head.

 

[Kali&89]

I just finished watching an episode of The Killing season where Josh and Racheal retraced Shannons footsteps through a yard and into the marsh where her body was found.Watching made me realize that the theory of Shannon ripping her jeans off and discarding her personal items due to the affects of hypothermia doesn'tmake sense. They walk only a short distance into the marsh when they stop and point out where Shannons clothing and personal items were found ... she would have only just been entering the marsh at that point where her jeans were found not long enough for her to be suffering from hypothermia severe enough for her to rip her clothes off and deliriously discard her personal effects. They then walk on for almost another quarter mile to the spot where her body was found.. you would think her personal items would have been discarded much closer to where she supposedly collapsed and died from hypothermia. Also if the water was at least knee deep as LE has stated I find it difficult that she could have made it as far into the marsh to where her body was found while barefoot,naked from the waist down. I think whoever killed her threw her personal effects into the beginning of the marsh so that it would appear as though she ran into the marsh and died.Then drove out of the community onto the parkway where they dumped her body just off the parkway to make it look like an accidental death.JMO

 

[WINDSOR]

As a person who battled addiction early on in my adulthood I have heavily used narcotics of varying types like cocaine, ketamine, MDMA, Mushrooms, LSD. You have realize each drug has different effects and there is no one answer to what happens when someone uses them. To suggest someone who's using cocaine would become placid is not true. Someone who heavily used Ketamine might do that. They can get stuck in a K-Hole. However with the heavy use of cocaine I have had serve paranoia episodes where I truly thought my life might be in danger for no other reason than the cocaine use. To the point I left the place I was at 6 am after doing coke for the last 7 hours and drove 45 minutes back to my place simply to get away from the people I was with. None of the people I was with ever exhibited aggressive behavior toward me and they were instead trying to calm me. However, I could not get the paranoia out my head.

Based on your experience with paranoia after seven hours of cocaine use, you drove 45 minutes back to your home. You did not call 911, you did not run away, but you went where you felt it was safe, your home.

As paranoid as you were, you had enough control of yourself and your faculties to drive safely home. No doubt if you sensed somebody was making threats to you or you felt in physical danger you would have acted even more decisively. It goes to the point that even paranoids can have real enemies. Yes Shannan could have been in a drug induced paranoia, but as well she could have had enough wherewithal to know she was in real danger.

MOO

 

[DQN]

Originally Posted by LetThemEatCake
but how can anyone infer that on a skeletonized body? it doesn't make sense to me. I feel like the Gilberts were being told whatever they wanted to hear.

Michael Baden's professional competencies below.

https://drmichaelbaden.com/bio/

In addition Michael Baden was the forensic pathologist that worked on my niece's murder, everything is based on science, he said although forensic science could not prove it due to the decomposition, (14 months), his findings were she was likely strangled due to the stretchy fabric that was found around her neck similar to a hair scrunchy or something similar. In the end after the trial and the murderer was convicted it was found out he wore an ace bandage on his knee all the time and that was what he used to strangle her.

Michael Baden is one of the top if not the "TOP" forensic pathologists in the country. He is not destroying his stellar reputation to please the Suffolk County LE or anyone else.

 

[deedee21]

M. Baden ruined his reputation when he testified for OJ. It was disappointing to watch.

 

[DQN]

M. Baden ruined his reputation when he testified for OJ. It was disappointing to watch.

I don't believe he ruined his reputation. I am the first person that wanted OJ in jail for those murders, if you listen to his interview about his testimony 20 years later to fox news, he reiterates, I am not saying OJ didn't do it or that he did do it, I am working with the dead, it's up to LE to find out WHO did it. Two examples he gave: the prosecution said the time of death was 10:15 based on a barking dog, he said I can't base the time of death on a barking dog, a dog will bark when someone they don't know is on the property and not bark when someone they know is on the property, (rightfully so), he said he has to stick to science. He also mentioned the prosecution stated a 6 ft person did the murders and again he said that he has to stick closely to the science and he can not say that a 6 ft person or a midget did it from behind unless he was there to see it. The interviewer tried to nail him with the question (forget about the science etc.) do you think he did it? he said he wouldn't rule him out. He also thought the prosecution did a bad job of presenting the evidence. (above mentioned 2 examples of the lame prosecution presenting things and expecting Michael Baden to concur). This is an interesting interview and insight behind his testimony at that trial. This is a listen only interview.

http://radio.foxnews.com/2015/10/02...l-baden-on-20-years-since-oj-simpson-verdict/

 

[Kali&89]

Paks story about Shannon running away from him because she didn't want to pay him his cut does not make sense...Shannon was aware that they had driven a long desolate drive to Brewers house.. she needed Pak to get out of there..., there is no way she wouldn't have wanted to give Pak his cut in order to get back to the city... imagine how much a taxi would have cost her to get back most likely way more than Paks cut and how long she would have had to wait to get a taxi...she knew she couldn't walk it's too far... Brewers not going to drive her as according to Pak Brewer threw her out of his house.. no one else is going to drive out of the city to get her without her paying and lastly if she was acting up just get out of paying Pak she wouldn't have gone into a marsh or thrown away her personal items...Paks looking more and more suspicious the closer you look at his story...Shannon was truly afraid of someone that night

 

[deedee21]

Michael Baden does know his stuff. But he ALSO has a knack for putting a unique spin on things. Its all in the language. He was a hired gun.

 

[Frappacino]

I'll take that bet and truly hope somehow the decision is made to release it.

So why hasn't it been decided in favor of the family
you're a smartie. What do you think - you said Suffolk County doesn't have to release 911 calls

then why did John Ray bring a motion and is waiting for the judge to decide.

I look forward to your response.
Happy New Year.

 

[The Nomad]

Michael Baden does know his stuff. But he ALSO has a knack for putting a unique spin on things. Its all in the language. He was a hired gun.

I don't know or follow Baden, but my limited knowledge of him, thats how he comes across.

OJ Trial
Carridine
SG?

Three dubious conclusions out of three for my knowledge.

 

[Neptune]

Kali&89:
Shannan arrived in Oak Beach at 2am and it was 4:50 when she ran out of Brewer's house. That's about 3 hours of time at, what, $300/hour? -- you think she stuck around Brewer's house for 3 hours and only left with $300? She had a lot more money than that.

My point continues to be: We were not there. We don't know what reason she left in a panic. We do not know what reason she ran from her ride home - there are countless possible scenarios. They’ve been churned over and over on this thread for 5 years. The fact is, Pak was cleared.

WINDSOR,
Having been in media relations for years, I am fully aware that people lie to journalists and journalists also lie to the public. That’s pretty common knowledge. Kolker provided a story that makes sense on why a felon driver of a prostitute may say to himself "I have no desire to talk with cops about Shannan -- I have no desire to play cat and mouse with Shannan -- this is ridiculous -- I'm leaving."

By the same token, and speaking of agendas “to deceive”, if you are not aware, there is behind-the-scenes lobbying effort by someone to spread unverified information about Pak. I know this for certain. This person has a reckless disregard for the truth and I don’t appreciate it. I’m not saying you know about this at all – I’m just explaining why I push-back hard on any unsubstantiated claims about Pak or anyone who presumes to know exactly what happened between him and Shannan since Pak was cleared by LE years ago. So if there’s new “inside” information on Pak or knowledge of his and Shannan’s relationship that has not been reported by bona fide sources then WS has a verification process for insiders.

 

[Kali&89]

Firstly,I didn't claim to know any "facts" I only commented and gave my personal "OPINION'" on statements Pak made himself on reasons why Shannon ran away from Joseph Brewer's house the night she died ..his story and explanation of the events of that night are all over MSM and all over websleuths.. I only suggested that it did not make sense for Shannonto run away from Pak because she didn't want to pay him... because if not Pak or somebody else she was going to pay for a ride home one way or another and if she did want to stiff Pak she could have told him to &$?cx off she didn't have to go to a crazy elaborate plan of running through the community banging on people's doors and calling 911 to get rid of him... secondly she's out at Oak beach on an outcall for prostitution she's not going to involve the cops unless something is really really seriously wrong.. escorts don't want to involve cops in their business... and lastly as I said before the SCPD have made an official statement saying that the release of Shannons 911 tape would compromise the investigation into the the LISK /Gilgo beach investigation so unless they are lying something said on the tape or someone who interacted with Shannon that night must be involved in some way with either Shannons death or the other murders of escorts who are buried at Gilgio beach.... And I'll stand by my statement Paks story does not make sense that doesn't mean he's a murderer but he may very well know more than hes saying or admitting about the events on the last night of Shannon's life...his story does not make sense whether he's a murderer or a witness Ps and on a personal note I feel you are trying to censor any OPINION that is not in line with yours..and I have seen many many posters on here state opinions on situations and not just purely facts we have to discuss different opinions and eventually discard them or tie them to facts when possible
QUOTE=Neptune;13038346]Kali&89:
Shannan arrived in Oak Beach at 2am and it was 4:50 when she ran out of Brewer's house. That's about 3 hours of time at, what, $300/hour? -- you think she stuck around Brewer's house for 3 hours and only left with $300? She had a lot more money than that.

My point continues to be: We were not there. We don't know what reason she left in a panic. We do not know what reason she ran from her ride home - there are countless possible scenarios. They’ve been churned over and over on this thread for 5 years. The fact is, Pak was cleared.

WINDSOR,
Having been in media relations for years, I am fully aware that people lie to journalists and journalists also lie to the public. That’s pretty common knowledge. Kolker provided a story that makes sense on why a felon driver of a prostitute may say to himself "I have no desire to talk with cops about Shannan -- I have no desire to play cat and mouse with Shannan -- this is ridiculous -- I'm leaving."

By the same token, and speaking of agendas “to deceive”, if you are not aware, there is behind-the-scenes lobbying effort by someone to spread unverified information about Pak. I know this for certain. This person has a reckless disregard for the truth and I don’t appreciate it. I’m not saying you know about this at all – I’m just explaining why I push-back hard on any unsubstantiated claims about Pak or anyone who presumes to know exactly what happened between him and Shannan since Pak was cleared by LE years ago. So if there’s new “inside” information on Pak or knowledge of his and Shannan’s relationship that has not been reported by bona fide sources then WS has a verification process for insiders.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kali&89]

If Shannon was awake on the ride to JBs house,and we know she was as she remembered on the 911 call she was at or near Jones beach,she would be well aware from the long desolate drive that there were not going to be any buses ,subways or taxis nearby ,,, she needed a ride out of there and she didn't trust Pak to get her out of there safely the only other option was 911 and the police.....and if she simply wanted to stiff Pak and get home another way,why run into a marsh and throw away her cell phone, her pants,her shoes,,her ID,her purse???


While John Ray paints Shannan as “high class” – Kolker gives a more “rounded” illustration of her and that includes stiffing a driver. I stand by my assertion that “word gets around”. You ask “What motive had Shannan not to pay MP if he got her the business?” OK, it’s called greed – especially when rent is due on May 1 – that exact day. Shannan had no idea where she was so she won't know no buses or subway were available. And you think a street-smart girl with hundreds of dollars in her pocket wouldn't just call a cab?

 

[Kali&89]

Joseph Brewer never admitted Shannon was at his home for the purpose of prostitution or if he even paid her any money,he claims she was there only for other purposes and when she supposedly brought up male transvestites and asked if he had ever encountered any,he claims he then got mad and wanted her out as he suspected she was a man..If that's true I highly doubt he paid her anything..I mean after all he wanted female companionship not a mans so why would he have paid her...If on the other hand Shannon was paid and she ran into the marsh on her own and tossed away her,shoes,pants,jacket,cellphone,ID and her PURSE the money she received from Brewer should have still been in her purse...unless she was murdered or robbed...

Shannan arrived in Oak Beach at 2am and it was 4:50 when she ran out of Brewer's house. That's about 3 hours of time at, what, $300/hour? -- you think she stuck around Brewer's house for 3 hours and only left with $300? She had a lot more money than that.


My point continues to be: We were not there. We don't know what reason she left in a panic. We do not know what reason she ran from her ride home - there are countless possible scenarios. They’ve been churned over and over on this thread for 5 years. The fact is, Pak was cleared.

 

[Confusion]

Joseph Brewer never admitted Shannon was at his home for the purpose of prostitution or if he even paid her any money,he claims she was there only for other purposes and when she supposedly brought up male transvestites and asked if he had ever encountered any,he claims he then got mad and wanted her out as he suspected she was a man..If that's true I highly doubt he paid her anything..I mean after all he wanted female companionship not a mans so why would he have paid her...If on the other hand Shannon was paid and she ran into the marsh on her own and tossed away her,shoes,pants,jacket,cellphone,ID and her PURSE the money she received from Brewer should have still been in her purse...unless she was murdered or robbed...

Shannan arrived in Oak Beach at 2am and it was 4:50 when she ran out of Brewer's house. That's about 3 hours of time at, what, $300/hour? -- you think she stuck around Brewer's house for 3 hours and only left with $300? She had a lot more money than that.


My point continues to be: We were not there. We don't know what reason she left in a panic. We do not know what reason she ran from her ride home - there are countless possible scenarios. They’ve been churned over and over on this thread for 5 years. The fact is, Pak was cleared.

BBM

I haven't read everything, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned. When I read that, I immediately wondered if Shannan may have known the Asian male whose body was found. It seemed like such an odd thing for her to ask (or for him to make up about her saying) that it made me wonder if either she had seen him with the transvestite/transsexual who disappeared 4 or so years earlier or if she had been told that he would be going to that home the day/night he disappeared. they would have been close in age, possibly from the same general area, and apparently in the same line of work. If she hadn't really asked him, it makes me think that it had happened to him before (possibly with the deceased) and it seemed like a good explanation for throwing her out.

If she did believe he had done something to the man in the past, and he seemed upset with her when she mentioned it, it could be enough to make her panic thinking he was going to make her disappear too. Even if he wasn't the murderer, it could have led her to believe he was or could be dangerous.
MOO

 

[Kali&89]

Here is a snippet from the testimony "verbatim" of Chief Varrone before the Suffolk County Legislature Public Safety committee May 5,2011

"Just to give you a quick overview of where the case is, and forgive me because I know most of you know all of this, but I'll just mention it. Of course this whole case started with the disappearance of Shannon Gilbert which occurred on May 1st -- almost a year ago, a few more days -- and Shannon Gilbert was a young woman who advertised on Craig's List. On the day in question she left her home in Jersey, took a train into Manhattan where she engaged in one, maybe two tricks, and she had a driver who was contacted by an individual in the Oak Beach Association and she was taken there at approximately two o'clock in the morning."

So Pak did arrange the date with Brewer according to Chief Varrone... This brings up several questions re this case the question of how did these two men know each other and had Pak ever brought other girls to Oak beach at Brewers request?

Here is a link to the verbatim notes taken at the May 5,2011,Suffolk County Legislature Public Safety Committee,Varrones statements re Shannon and the case can be found on pages 9 and 10

http://legis.suffolkcountyny.gov/cle...1/PS050511.pdf

 

[Kali&89]

Either way whether Shannan truly brought it up or JB used it as a cover story to explain his anger and why he wanted Shannan out of his house the night she died ,its too much of a bizarre coincidence that during the search for Shannon the remains of a savagely murdered transvestite prostitute would be found buried on Gilgo beach..... Its hard to hear JB story and then not assume that there is a some connection between himself and the murdered transvestite.. after all hes freely admitting that the idea that Shannon was a transvestite enraged him

BBM

I haven't read everything, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned. When I read that, I immediately wondered if Shannan may have known the Asian male whose body was found. It seemed like such an odd thing for her to ask (or for him to make up about her saying) that it made me wonder if either she had seen him with the transvestite/transsexual who disappeared 4 or so years earlier or if she had been told that he would be going to that home the day/night he disappeared. they would have been close in age, possibly from the same general area, and apparently in the same line of work. If she hadn't really asked him, it makes me think that it had happened to him before (possibly with the deceased) and it seemed like a good explanation for throwing her out.

If she did believe he had done something to the man in the past, and he seemed upset with her when she mentioned it, it could be enough to make her panic thinking he was going to make her disappear too. Even if he wasn't the murderer, it could have led her to believe he was or could be dangerous.
MOO