Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[Reannan]

<rsbm>

What you say makes absolute sense to me Peter. However, when we look at the fact that they "disappeared AFTER the last John", I guess we can say that would be after their last KNOWN John. Somehow these girls all hooked up with the same killer after their last known scheduled encounters with different johns.

Could the girls have made arrangements somehow, other than through Craigslist, to hook up with their next client? Maureen having been robbed always sticks in my mind ... Could she have decided to just turn a street trick to get some quick cash? Can we find any reasons that the other girls may have decided to do the same thing. Do we know that none of these girls ever met with a john that they did NOT meet through Craigslist?

What about their "pimps"? I don't think the term "pimp" as most people recognize it is valid in today's cyber society. We know they had drivers (who in my opinion are a kind of pimp), but is there another layer that we have overlooked? Is there someone else who helps them with their on-line presence that we haven't thought of? Just thinking out loud.... you guys are great for generating thoughts!

 

[susan1122]

Imo, In Amber's case it's possible that she was comfortable with the John. Her roommate, Dave Schaller, insisted that she normally would not leave w/o her phone. Either she knew him or the money was just too good. That she and Megan left without their belongings does make me think that it was the killer that lured them out. This just seems like common sense.....that doesn't mean that is the way it happened. But it seems logical. By the way, on the A&E special Schaller said Amber was using his phone to talk w/ the john before she headed out.

 

[Reannan]

"And then, somewhere between midnight and 3 am, depending how many he has already stashed away there he wants to revisit, he will add her to his trophy collection. He will feels the wind from the sea, he will hear the surf, like a little voice from the universe itself. He will smell the familiar smells from his youth, but with the difference, back then ha was a little black boy, now he is, in his mind, the invincible master, who teaches the lessons. Which is the reason, he probably started his new trophy yards so near to the sites, the GB4 were found ... he knows, LE considers that area as searched, that they won't return to take them again from him.

So well, that is my opinion, what is about to happen."

-Peter Brendt



I think you're really onto something here Peter with the LISK started to re-do his trophy cluster so close to the original Gilgo site, it'd be the ultimate slap in the face for the Suffolk PD. Except they'll probably never discover it, even if somebody mentions it to them in a tip. I also think your idea of him feeling the wind from the sea, smelling the salt air and hearing the surf is very compelling to him. He's strongly drawn to it much like you mentioned in another post about the wind through the trees for Bundy.

BBM... Unless you are Officer Mallia and you need to take your dog Blue for a walk after reading here on WS's! :crazy:

 

[Reannan]

Imo, In Amber's case it's possible that she was comfortable with the John. Her roommate, Dave Schaller, insisted that she normally would not leave w/o her phone. Either she knew him or the money was just too good. That she and Megan left without their belongings does make me think that it was the killer that lured them out. This just seems like common sense.....that doesn't mean that is the way it happened. But it seems logical. By the way, on the A&E special Schaller said Amber was using his phone to talk w/ the john before she headed out.

Susan, wasn't it Amber that left her apartment without her cell phone, which was out of character, and wearing a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt - for a large ticket kind of date? WTH???? For one thing, you don't wear that kind of clothing on that kind of date, unless they TELL you that you are going to some sort of event where the clothing will be provided, i.e. photo-shoot, movie, etc.... Leaving without a cell phone to a street smart girl??? I still cannot come up with an explanation for that one. What would someone say to a working girl that would make them leave their cell phone at home? They could always turn it on vibrate, or just simply off. I just can't answer this one, no matter what scenario I come up with!

 

[susan1122]

Susan, wasn't it Amber that left her apartment without her cell phone, which was out of character, and wearing a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt - for a large ticket kind of date? WTH???? For one thing, you don't wear that kind of clothing on that kind of date, unless they TELL you that you are going to some sort of event where the clothing will be provided, i.e. photo-shoot, movie, etc.... Leaving without a cell phone to a street smart girl??? I still cannot come up with an explanation for that one. What would someone say to a working girl that would make them leave their cell phone at home? They could always turn it on vibrate, or just simply off. I just can't answer this one, no matter what scenario I come up with!

I agree, Reannan.....it is just so hard to fathom. But yes, I think that may be he said clothes were provided. I was reading a theory (on this site....can't remember where right now...sorry!) that maybe he said it was a VIP event and no phones allowed, period. I believe that I read that he offered her $1500. She probably felt that was too good to resist.....she was feeding a heroin habit. Her sister said sometimes she would accept far too little....maybe she was desperate. moo.

 

[Reannan]

I agree, Reannan.....it is just so hard to fathom. But yes, I think that may be he said clothes were provided. I was reading a theory (on this site....can't remember where right now...sorry!) that maybe he said it was a VIP event and no phones allowed, period. I believe that I read that he offered her $1500. She probably felt that was too good to resist.....she was feeding a heroin habit. Her sister said sometimes she would accept far too little....maybe she was desperate. moo.

Well, WORD UP to any girls currently working the streets - or cyberspace.... if a guy offers you TONS of money to show up without your cell phone and wearing what you would wear to clean the house or go to the grocery store - DON'T GO!!! Gosh, I wish we had known about this killer earlier, and had been able to keep it in the media so that maybe some of the GB4 could have been saved. This case drives me nuts for several reasons - one of them being that it is so cyber-related, and another being that the GB4 were victims during a time that cyber-awareness should have been obvious. What happened that made these girls let their guard down? They all functioned in the same world we are now sleuthing - a scary world where you can't trust anything on-line.

 

[Peter Brendt]

There is no known data that indicates the perp had prior contact with his victims.

Mind to give us a link to that data? Or tell, what kind of data it is?

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

What about their "pimps"? I don't think the term "pimp" as most people recognize it is valid in today's cyber society. We know they had drivers (who in my opinion are a kind of pimp), but is there another layer that we have overlooked? Is there someone else who helps them with their on-line presence that we haven't thought of? Just thinking out loud.... you guys are great for generating thoughts!

Obviously not all of them used drivers. Shannan Gilbert did. Maureen Brainard-Barnes didn't and we can't be too sure whether Amber Costello or Megan Waterman were maybe picked up by drivers.
The other level is the level of the so-called boyfriends and roommates. Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned in that, but a man who sends his girlfriend to have sex with other men for money and then live on her money has something "pimpy" about him. Just my opinion. The not-problem with those guys is however, that they don't win anything by killing those women and that we obviously talk here about at least three of them: Terri, Schaller, Cruz. And Maureen had as it looks nobody like that around in the first place.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

Imo, In Amber's case it's possible that she was comfortable with the John. Her roommate, Dave Schaller, insisted that she normally would not leave w/o her phone. Either she knew him or the money was just too good. That she and Megan left without their belongings does make me think that it was the killer that lured them out. This just seems like common sense.....that doesn't mean that is the way it happened. But it seems logical. By the way, on the A&E special Schaller said Amber was using his phone to talk w/ the john before she headed out.

Yep, she talked to him on her phone, then left the phone behind. And this john was not the same last john as in the case of Maureen and I think Barthelmy. The only last john, I haven't heard yet being identified by LE is the one Megan made out with. Which means, common sense confuses once more everything, because to construct a homicidal john, you need them to have visited all the same last john. Which obviously is not, what happened.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

BBM... Unless you are Officer Mallia and you need to take your dog Blue for a walk after reading here on WS's! :crazy:

I think, if he does that again, the brass will cancel his pension ...

 

[Peter Brendt]

Susan, wasn't it Amber that left her apartment without her cell phone, which was out of character, and wearing a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt - for a large ticket kind of date? WTH???? For one thing, you don't wear that kind of clothing on that kind of date, unless they TELL you that you are going to some sort of event where the clothing will be provided, i.e. photo-shoot, movie, etc.... Leaving without a cell phone to a street smart girl??? I still cannot come up with an explanation for that one. What would someone say to a working girl that would make them leave their cell phone at home? They could always turn it on vibrate, or just simply off. I just can't answer this one, no matter what scenario I come up with!

Someone would say "wear something comfortable" and then "and don't bring that damn phone, it rang three times last time while we were in bed" And if said someone is a client, she had already several times, someone she considered as non-threatening, and even more someone paying real good, she would consider it. The choice of cloth btw indicates, she knew him really well. But that's for the john and as now several times mentioned, the john isn't the killer.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

I agree, Reannan.....it is just so hard to fathom. But yes, I think that may be he said clothes were provided. I was reading a theory (on this site....can't remember where right now...sorry!) that maybe he said it was a VIP event and no phones allowed, period. I believe that I read that he offered her $1500. She probably felt that was too good to resist.....she was feeding a heroin habit. Her sister said sometimes she would accept far too little....maybe she was desperate. moo.

The VIP event was just a theory here on the board. Long time ago. However, someone organizing that kind of VIP event would just call an agency and order by numbers.

 

[susan1122]

Yep, she talked to him on her phone, then left the phone behind. And this john was not the same last john as in the case of Maureen and I think Barthelmy. The only last john, I haven't heard yet being identified by LE is the one Megan made out with. Which means, common sense confuses once more everything, because to construct a homicidal john, you need them to have visited all the same last john. Which obviously is not, what happened.

Peter

Unless we don't know who the last john actually was in the case of Maureen and Melissa. But it could have been a john in some cases and maybe not in others, no? Maybe Maureen was attacked rather than lured? She was in a very dangerous area....especially for a woman alone at night.

 

[susan1122]

The VIP event was just a theory here on the board. Long time ago. However, someone organizing that kind of VIP event would just call an agency and order by numbers.

The VIP thing would have been a lie, though, if it was used to lure them out w/o their phones.....

 

[Peter Brendt]

Unless we don't know who the last john actually was in the case of Maureen and Melissa. But it could have been a john in some cases and maybe not in others, no? Maybe Maureen was attacked rather than lured? She was in a very dangerous area....especially for a woman alone at night.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/cops_eyed_in_slays_fOv6EUeWKQ9Qdo6bOn5zcJ

That's one article about those two cops who popped up when they went through Megan's phone records. I forgot which of them was later identified as the last john. It's somewhere in this thread or another LISK thread, I remember somewhat foggy, we went through this loop already three or four times.
So to me, the situation looks as

- Maureen last heard of from the bus terminal. Every idea of another john that night following that phone call to friends is pure speculation and there is not one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial she pulled off another trick.

- Melissa Barthelmy had one john that night. She obviously did take her phone with her and there is no indication the john asked her not to. That one, as articles reported a bit ominous was identified but LE didn't publish his name. As far as I got it together, it appears one of those two cops in the article earlier, but that contradicts her boyfriend who said (only after she was found there) the john was on LI.

- Megan Waterman, disappeared from the hotel in Haupauge. Didn't take her phone with her, indicating, she knew that john and was sure, he is not dangerous, which again means, he had earlier contacts with her and therefore was in her phone records or her Craigslist contacts. The interesting thing is, Megan was in femdom, which means, her clientele had not much overlap with the other girl's customers.

-Amber Costello didn't take her phone either. Which means, maybe, maybe, maybe, this could indeed be the same one as Megan's last john. Same pattern. But he can't be the same as Melissa's last John and obviously also not Maureen's last john because that one met Maureen in a hotel room in Manhattan. So entirely different behavior.

Maureen wasn't lured, that's pretty clear. She was probably blitz-attacked, maybe with a little ruse. The guy who comes with a cold cigarette "do you have fire?" and boom or something like that.
The point I doubt is, that the other ones lured. I think rather, someone stalked them and attacked them on the way back from those different last johns.

Peter

 

[Sillybilly]

- Maureen last heard of from the bus terminal. Every idea of another john that night following that phone call to friends is pure speculation and there is not one bit of evidence, not even circumstantial she pulled off another trick.

<rsbm>

FWIW, i was just reading back through some of meltruth's posts, and she indicated that Maureen was robbed much earlier in the day but is known to have disappeared in the one hour between 11:30 pm and 12:30 am.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7722096&postcount=130"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Victim - Maureen Brainard-Barnes[/ame]


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7697603&postcount=146"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Suffolk homicide chief: New look at Gilgo - Newsday article 3/9/12[/ame]



There seems to be a few hours during which we don't know her activities.

 

[Sillybilly]

After she was robbed, Maureen had contacted friends to drive her home but they couldn't. Therefore, i find Redbird's old post interesting:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7672474&postcount=46"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Victim - Maureen Brainard-Barnes[/ame]


In the hours after she was robbed, as she looking for a way home, who might she have called to take her there? Did she make a few bucks and maybe call a cab? Taxi drivers would be around those areas all times of the day and night.

 

[Peter Brendt]

<rsbm>

FWIW, i was just reading back through some of meltruth's posts, and she indicated that Maureen was robbed much earlier in the day but is known to have disappeared in the one hour between 11:30 pm and 12:30 am.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Victim - Maureen Brainard-Barnes


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Suffolk homicide chief: New look at Gilgo - Newsday article 3/9/12



There seems to be a few hours during which we don't know her activities.

That time (11:30-12:30) is in my opinion a little bit early, but only by half an hour. She phoned with friends about being robbed, but it was more like venting steam.
Before, she left the hotel on 46th, allegedly without paying for the room. There were also rumors about her leaving a laptop computer behind, but that seems to be exactly that: rumor. So, she was unaccounted for between the time, she left the hotel (which nobody really knows, but has to be after 6pm) and thew ti,me she made a phone call from her cell from the bus terminal. But then, she was obviously still alive to make that phone call. And if I remember right, that was basically the last chance to get a bus home before the early morning. So her urge to take on another john and miss that bus must have been very low.

Peter

 

[Peter Brendt]

After she was robbed, Maureen had contacted friends to drive her home but they couldn't. Therefore, i find Redbird's old post interesting:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Victim - Maureen Brainard-Barnes


In the hours after she was robbed, as she looking for a way home, who might she have called to take her there? Did she make a few bucks and maybe call a cab? Taxi drivers would be around those areas all times of the day and night.

She called two friends who couldn't drive her. That appears to be corroborated by her phone records. She didn't call anybody else it seems. So the theory, she called her own killer ... there is nothing to indicate, she knew her killer. And this thing with the $900 is only certain for Melissa. We don't know how much was the amount robbed from Maureen and I never found out, how those two stories were messed up.

Peter

 

[Jenny9]

Susan, wasn't it Amber that left her apartment without her cell phone, which was out of character, and wearing a pair of jeans and a sweatshirt - for a large ticket kind of date? WTH???? For one thing, you don't wear that kind of clothing on that kind of date, unless they TELL you that you are going to some sort of event where the clothing will be provided, i.e. photo-shoot, movie, etc.... Leaving without a cell phone to a street smart girl??? I still cannot come up with an explanation for that one. What would someone say to a working girl that would make them leave their cell phone at home? They could always turn it on vibrate, or just simply off. I just can't answer this one, no matter what scenario I come up with!

it could be that her phone had died and it needed to be charged,maybe thats why she was using her roomates phone to talk to the john?and she left it behind because it wasnt working anyway?