Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

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G.bng said:
Sorry but you seem to have been caught up in a series of cryptic comments alluding to me and my playful or sarcastic replies which started with Cherwell who, replying to another poster about OP's cousin Graham Binge, noted:



Since it clearly alluded to me possibly being Graham Binge, I replied playfully:



To then some posts later find JJ's reply to Cherwell reiterating the idea I could be Graham Binge:



So I again replied playfully, since I am pretty sure OP has no Spanish cousin and even if he did it certainly isn't me:



Which is where you came in with your post.

So, no need to look for OP's Spanish cousin, and no I am not Graham Binge. I am Spanish-English and live in Madrid, Spain. At least that is where my home is and where I live except for periods in the UK where I am at present, aiding a very good friend of many years fight their local authority as well as doing bits I can to help with the support of their two learning disabled adult sons (one severely and one profoundly) who require 24/7 support and were at risk of the local authority removing them into care after my friend ran into serious difficulties, unable to cope, when their spouse, with whom they previously shared the sons' care, upped and left with another leaving my friend to provide the 24/7 care alone and with the local authority refusing to provide or fund care in their home due to costs. Now, thanks to my involvement and that of other advocates and lawyers, and after recourse to the local government ombudsmen and at the doors of taking the local authority to the Court of Protection, the battle is now won with the sons now secure living with a parent they adore, in the home they know and love, and where they always wanted to live and where it has now been officially deemed it is in their best interests to live. That sorted we are now working with the local authority to set up the 24/7 care package that the boys are assessed as needing which once finalised and up and running correctly, without hitches as there are at present, should leave my friend free to get on with their own life without having to sacrifice their sons to be able to do so (my friend would rather die than do this), and to even be able to sometimes come out to spend time in Spain, maybe. And if the local authority is ordered to pay compensation for the years it failed in its statutory Duty of Care towards my friend and their sons, the final battle we are at present immersed in, it will be even better!
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That sounds VERY difficult G. Bing. ...holding all of you there gently in my heart.:daisy:
 
G.bng said:
Not surprisingly we don't permit fairies to collect kid's teeth in Spain, only mice. It's unhygienic and goes against health and safety!
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Right answer!!!

ratoncito-perez.jpg

Oh, NO! You ARE the Spanish cousin!!
 
pandax81 said:
Please don't speak for me mrjitty. You have a habit of selective reading and misrepresenting my views, and we are back there again.

I was asked by someone: in the case of reservation of Qs of law by Masipa, is it a possibility for Masipa to grant bail without a defence appeal. I answered yes, and quoted the relevant section from the Criminal Procedure Act which allows for this if she sees fit. I said no more and no less than this. I made no comment on whether I think she should see it fit.

You intervened, quoted the section and said you didn't think it would apply as there is no appeal of the conviction.

But, as the section clearly reads, there does not need to be an appeal of the conviction. If there is ANY question of law reserved, then if the judge sees fit she can grant bail. This was the question, and the answer, nothing more, nothing less.

You then go on to reference treating OP as an unconvicted prisoner. This was never mentioned by me or the questioner, ever. We were talking about granting bail. Again, there is a distinction between the two and the section makes it clear.

If you wish to say you think Masipa should not see it fit to grant bail without a defence appeal, then that is fine, I may even agree with you? Just bear in mind this is very different from a claim that the section does not apply without a defence appeal, which is clearly wrong.
Click to expand...

To be clear - I don't believe it applies unless there is an appeal against conviction by the applicant.

Of course you may be right that it does apply to any appeal.

I am happy to leave it there.
 
Val1 said:
Thanks, now why in the world would OP have an almost 5 year old copy of that, anywhere in his house? Was he in that list of 101 and liked to reassure himself, or flaunt it?

Edit: I just read the article in your second link, quite interesting given OP's defence re Derman. So did he seek help in 2008 or since(but before he killed RS) as per the article and how did he get the magazine... did someone conveniently leave it at his place hoping he'd read it and seek help?

Also, going back to my observation re the books in his kitchen, I noted that in this video there were no books but there were pics that appeared to be the same though I haven't actually compared them properly, yet. In fact, what it did show of his place it looked pretty stark, no couch or fans visible in the bedroom either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIme8MrOpwU
Click to expand...

.. during that report, she's looking at photos of him as a younger lad and says 'always adventurous and daring' .. well this is the problem with him, isn't it .. he is adventurous and daring to the point of being reckless and dangerous .. and I was reading a link someone posted on here the other day which mentioned his prostheses and how he never had a sense of fear with regard to damaging his legs because his weren't real legs. A number of examples were given for the various 'injuries' (marks on his prostheses) and Pistorius told the reporter the story behind each of them, and it struck me even more so just how invincible and indestructible he believed himself to be and am wondering if this is how he came to be like he is. I'm sure it started out as probably nothing more than a joke he would use when he was a young lad, but I get the feeling that he started to think about it, and us it, more seriously over time .. the fact he could get away with more or less anything because of his legs, where others couldn't .. but then, for him to do that and for it to get to the point where he intentionally kills someone and thinks he can get away with it, then I think it has to be a combination of having been wired up wrong in the first place and then the feeling of invincibility on top of that, and which made for a lethal combination (because many others with that same condition wouldn't and don't go on to kill). I just found it fascinating reading through to see how this 'ha ha, I can do anything I like and my legs won't get injured' thing seemed to progress from just a harmless bit of fun to something that I see as far more sinister: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/9874684/Oscar-Pistorius-Not-the-boy-I-knew.html

"As we were writing the speech, desperately looking for something that would reduce his audience to tears or fill them with inspiration, he pulled up his trouser legs to reveal his battered, flesh-coloured prosthetics, and started to regale me with stories about his childhood based on the gouges, scars, burn marks and grazes on the legs.

His earliest memory was sitting in a go-kart with his brother and racing down a hill near his house at great speed. The kart didn’t have brakes, and his job was to jam his prosthetic feet on to the tarmac to slow the kart down. He quickly wore his legs down to stumps.

He pointed to a dark, molten patch on one of the prostheses – the result of his leg resting against the exhaust pipe of a motorbike. He stopped at a convenience store and noticed wisps of smoke. He thought his bike was about to catch fire, until he noticed the plastic on his leg was starting to bubble and he could smell burning rubber.

He pointed to a series of scratch marks – the result of exploring some open veld near his house with friends and having to climb through a barbed wire fence. His friends emerged bleeding and in pain. Oscar just laughed.

He pointed to a small, deep hole – the result of falling off his motorbike at speed. It hadn’t hurt because his leg took the brunt of the fall.

He recalled the punishment meted out to him and some classmates after they had run 3.5 miles naked from his school – the prestigious Pretoria Boys’ High – to the Union Buildings, the seat of government in South Africa. When the culprits were rounded up, they were made to do ballet and stand on their tiptoes. As his classmates collapsed in agony with burning calf muscles, Oscar happily stood on his prosthetics with his arms in a Swan Lake pose."
Click to expand...

^^^ .. you see there already he was believing he could get away with pretty much anything ..

By the way, this article might also answer some of the questions people had about his prostheses being battered in the photos of him taken at the crime scene .. they are probably not the same prostheses as he was talking about in that article, but it does show that he never took particularly great care of them and in fact was quite proud of all the different marks sustained on them because he would be able to tell people the stories behind getting those 'injuries'.
 
Lux et Veritas said:
THEORY: No big secrets were at play the night of Feb 14. Reeva was simply at the wrong place, wrong time when OP snapped; he took out his anger on her - the nearest available target.

This is a guy who was already dangerously irate with TWO women when he suddenly dived headlong into a relationship with RS.

Explosive, unresolved relationship issues with Sam Taylor (assault to ego).
Explosive, unresolved legal issues with Cassidy Taylor-Memmory (assault to career/image/money).

(I suspect his “financial meeting” that very morning was regarding the lawsuit.)

OP felt himself drowning in impotent anger and 100% loss of control with these two massive losses.

To complicate matters ... the seemingly ever-present 'Babyshoes' seemed to be a (semi)permanent fixture in that volatile mix.

That night, a small, “offensive” spark by Reeva (whether verbal and/or action) may have innocently triggered OP’s pent-up hostilities into full-blown berserker mode (doesn’t seem to take much to set him off).

During that lethal rage, he subconsciously projected Sam, Cassidy and Reeva (and certain other past/present females?) as “one”* ... the “perfect storm” of nasty, hateful, hurtful women who all wanted to screw him over, one-up him and control him.

OP has a pathological need to totally dominate, to “win”.

Violence is the ultimate control, the ultimate revenge ... at least for 10 seconds until you come out of the red mist ether and reality kicks you in the cojones.

Romantic rebounds + anger / career / PR / financial issues + narcissism + guns never ends well.

Given OP’s character, aggressive personality and history, this disaster was all but guaranteed.

Had it not been Reeva it would have eventually been some other unfortunate woman.

She was simply the nearest, easiest scapegoat in his desperate bid to reclaim power, control and dominance.

Is this scenario plausible?


* It certainly doesn’t help that all the ladies in OP’s life seem to be more or less interchangeable clones in certain crucial aspects - long blonde-hair + model-type beauty. Whether all their personalities are similar is anyone’s guess, but I’m guessing OP strongly gravitates to the sweet, innocent, kind, generous, warm, compassionate type. Perhaps after a while, all these “clones” start to blur together, he confuses one with the other ... especially if all those relationships were “fiery”, turbulent and full of endless conflict and drama (see Oscar Pistorius, common denominator).
Click to expand...

IMO Yes, very plausible!
 
Val1 said:
BBM I think the pics of the bed pretty much shows us that, since OP claims to have actually slept for 4-5 hours on the left side of the bed and that is the only side that looks even remotely disturbed.

Sorry for keep stating it but this is just another one of my 'gripes' with the Prosecution.
OP should have been asked in court why the bed looked as though it hadn't been slept in and why one pillow was propped up!
He said they both slept in it and then he crawled over it and the duvet looking for Reeva..............the photograph shows he was lying why wasn't it mentioned?
Click to expand...
 
Time to look at some excerpts from the Pistorius media statements: http://oscarpistorius.com/

March 20, 2012
Pistorius also crashed his power boat into a submerged pier in 2008, breaking two ribs, his jaw and an eye socket, and had to have 172 stitches. “The boat’s gone, too,” he adds, smiling and looking sheepish. “We don’t do that stuff any more. It was quite difficult to get that out of my system. I miss that quite a bit.
There will be a time for that in the future but, right now, I would be quite upset if I got injured. There must be other ways I can unwind. It’s a small sacrifice.” With link to:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ol...ar-Pistorius-exclusive-walking-wild-side.html

Men’s Health magazine (US edition) has named Oscar Pistorius as number 47 [out of 100] in ‘The Fittest Men of All Time’ list alongside the likes of actor Daniel Craig, Usain Bolt (track and field) and Michael Jordan (basketball)”. With link to:
http://www.menshealth.com/fitness/fittest-men-ever#ixzz29kGDYn3Y

Feb 15, 2013
The alleged murder is disputed in the strongest terms.22 February, 2013
As the family, we are convinced that Oscar’s version of what happened on that terrible night will prove to be true.

23 February 2013
We are acutely aware of the fact that this is only the beginning of a long road to prove that, as we know, Oscar never intended to harm Reeva, let alone cause her death. We realise that the law must run its course, and we would not have it any other way.

24 February 2014
Oldwage, speaking on Carl Pistorius’ behalf, said there is no doubt that Carl is innocent and the charge will be challenged in court.

5 March 2013
In response to Henke’s comments about guns to the media, Arnold said, “The Pistorius family own weapons purely for sport and hunting purposes”.

11 April 2013
[OP strenuously and vigorously denied that he was partying it up at the Kitchen Bar restaurant]

Oscar, and the Pistorius family, are deeply disturbed by the tone of a number of recent reports in the South African tabloid press as well as commentary on various social media platforms.

One of the other patrons said, “He was drinking shooters and he was flirtatious. He didn't seem like someone [who had] lost the love of his life".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ously-denies-downing-drinks-and-flirting.html

14 April 2013
We deny in the strongest possible terms the version of events as portrayed in the reports today. It is a great sadness for Oscar that, in the short period that he and Reeva were together, the opportunity never arose for him to meet her family as she did his.

3 June 2013
We continue to have great faith in the South African legal justice system and believe that Oscar’s account of what happened on that terrible night in February will be borne out by the evidence that the Defence Team will lead in court.

17 March 2014
It was, and remains, the family’s view that further commentary is therefore superfluous, and that the truth must now be allowed to emerge in court. This position particularly applies during the phase of the trial where the Prosecution leads its evidence.

The following are excerpts from a press statement given by Leo Pistorius responding to comments made by Jared Mortimer following the VIP nightclub incident:

"We wish to categorically state that there is absolutely no truth to this man’s assertions that Oscar, for instance, insulted the President of South Africa or boasted about our family’s so-called influence”.
"Both Oscar and his cousin were equally taken aback by Mr Mortimer’s accusations relating to the trial.
"My investigations indicate that Mortimer was the aggressor and eyewitnesses confirm this”.
http://www.enca.com/pistorius-family-statement

There were a number of witnesses to this incident. Further, not long afterwards there were witnesses to a second incident involving OP and another patron, the bouncers were called and OP was removed from the premises. The person accompanying OP was not his cousin but Guil Yahav who was implicated in the 2002 murder of Patrick Caetano, who was bludgeoned to death with a butcher’s knife at a Kyalami office park.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Oscar_Pistorius/Oscar-told-to-F-off-at-nightclub-20140720'

It reminds me of some of the words of a song:
...
My poor feet began to stutter
So I lay down in the gutter
And a pig came up and lay down by my side

Then we sang "It's All Fair Weather"
And "Good Fellows Get Together"
Till a lady passing by was heard to say
She says, "You can tell a man who boozes
By the company he chooses"
And the pig got up and slowly walked away.
 
EWN Reporter ‏@ewnreporter
BREAKING #OscarPistorius NPA confirms it's received official notice that defense will oppose its application for leave to appeal. #EWN

EWN Reporter @ewnreporter
#OscarPistorius Defense filed the notice in court today and has notified the state. Grounds will be provided later.

EWN Reporter @ewnreporter ·
#OscarPistorius From here, judge Thokozile Masipa will give both sides a date for when she can hear the arguments.

EWN Reporter @ewnreporter
#OscarPistorius The judge decides whether to give state leave to appeal conviction and sentence. If not, prosecutors can petition SCA.
 
David Dadic @DavidDadic · 13m 13 minutes ago

Pistorius opposing application for leave to appeal. I thought he had no money. Is he going to legal aid,or is Roux really just that generous?
 
I'm confused..........................
Why would they oppose the application for leave to appeal?

The way I've read it even if they succeed in their opposition the Prosecution will then go direct to the SCA anyway.
Seems like a big waste of time and money unless I'm reading it wrong !
 
The_Citizen_Reporter @CitiReporter
#OscarTrial. States's bid for leave to #appeal against Oscar's sentence, culpable homicide conviction to be heard 18 November. #citinews -

Still waiting to see this confirmed elsewhere

ETA: Seems to be confirmed but haven't seen confirmation from NPA spokesman Nathi Mncube yet
 
44ALLAN said:
Val1 said:
BBM I think the pics of the bed pretty much shows us that, since OP claims to have actually slept for 4-5 hours on the left side of the bed and that is the only side that looks even remotely disturbed.

Sorry for keep stating it but this is just another one of my 'gripes' with the Prosecution.
OP should have been asked in court why the bed looked as though it hadn't been slept in and why one pillow was propped up!
He said they both slept in it and then he crawled over it and the duvet looking for Reeva..............the photograph shows he was lying why wasn't it mentioned?
Click to expand...

Well it was basically mentioned.

By photos, and testimony

Questioning him direct on that point doesn't really achieve anything except another difference of opinion.

It's just the judge decided to ignore lots of key evidence.
Click to expand...
 
Mr Fossil said:
EWN Reporter ‏@ewnreporter
BREAKING #OscarPistorius NPA confirms it's received official notice that defense will oppose its application for leave to appeal. #EWN

EWN Reporter @ewnreporter
#OscarPistorius Defense filed the notice in court today and has notified the state. Grounds will be provided later.

EWN Reporter @ewnreporter ·
#OscarPistorius From here, judge Thokozile Masipa will give both sides a date for when she can hear the arguments.

EWN Reporter @ewnreporter
#OscarPistorius The judge decides whether to give state leave to appeal conviction and sentence. If not, prosecutors can petition SCA.
Click to expand...

No surprise there
 
44ALLAN said:
I'm confused..........................
Why would they oppose the application for leave to appeal?

The way I've read it even if they succeed in their opposition the Prosecution will then go direct to the SCA anyway.
Seems like a big waste of time and money unless I'm reading it wrong !
Click to expand...

Its the first and cheapest opportunity for the defence to try to win this.

For instance they may hope to be successful on the procedural point.

Once it goes up the SCA, then you are in the big expensive appeal ball game.

Although you are also correct, that if NPA appealed Masipa's refusal of leave to appeal to the SCA then in practice the SCA is probably going to consider the merit of the appeal anyway in determining whether they want to hear it.
 
mrjitty said:
Its the first and cheapest opportunity for the defence to try to win this.

For instance they may hope to be successful on the procedural point.

Once it goes up the SCA, then you are in the big expensive appeal ball game.

Although you are also correct, that if NPA appealed Masipa's refusal of leave to appeal to the SCA then in practice the SCA is probably going to consider the merit of the appeal anyway in determining whether they want to hear it.
Click to expand...

So, why appeal at this stage then?

If it's inevitable that an appeal that will be heard by the Supreme Court (either with or without Masipa's blessing) then why make a point of it now? Or is it just a pi**ing contest?

Also, it seems that Appeal related law is very dry and very academic. Would that traditionally be handled by the defence lawyer (i.e. Roux) or by a more specialised lawyer?
 
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