Post sentencing discussion

[Mr Fossil]

I wonder, where?

I use Topsy to get at old tweets but not sure it shows deleted tweets, although you can find RT's where others have amended them and you know what to look for (e.g. the one where OP goes in full recon mode about his washing machine has been deleted but others copied and added comments to it, hence it didn't get deleted from their stream whereas a straight RT is also deleted with the original tweet since the RT is only a pointer to it)

 

[JudgeJudi]

Mandy Wiener ‏@MandyWiener

Two critical characters in this story, Justin Divaris and Samantha Greyvenstein, didn't give evidence. Likely amongst those who refused.

Keep Swimming ‏@titude101 8. Juli

@MandyWiener #OscarTrial saying not wanting voices to go out is an easier way to let down a friend, maybe just didn't want to get involved
0 Antworten 0 Retweets 0 Favoriten


Maybe, you remember this part of twitter conversation?

Sam Greyvenstein, Divaris' partner, was one of Reeva's closest friends. I read that they distanced themselves from OP after the bail hearing. Reeva was a very good friend of theirs and often used to stay at their house.

 

[jay-jay]

While it's gone a bit quiet, can I just ask a question about the ammunition OP used in his Taurus pistol to shoot Reeva, and the ammo which was found in his safe, please .. I'm a bit confused as to whether the black talon bullets he used in his gun that night were the same type of bullets as those he was storing in his safe (supposedly on behalf of his father), or were they different ones? Could someone please clarify this for me .. TIA!

 

[JudgeJudi]

I am the bullet in the chamber"

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-21472843

Here is the video -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csc__RYEtbo

my body is my weapon . . this is how I fight . . . this I my weapon . . .how I defeat my enemies . . how I win my war . . how I make victory . . this I my weapon . . this is how I fight . . .

It's the wording that makes me shiver[/QUOTE]




The bullets are all spent, and now he's in the chamber.

 

[RosieC]

:websleuther:

The first sounds being gunshots is one of a number of possibilities but one which I favour for the moment. I don't think it necessarily makes forensics sloppy because they would not know they needed to look for this (since everything else seems to fit together). And we mustn't forget that, in spite of my measurements, it is still possible that the magazine has more bullets in it than I've figured.

I think the first shots would have been fired from within the bedroom (or bathroom) and aimed outside, so no louder than the second set. The Stipps hear the first shots because Annette Stipp is already awake and their balcony windows are open. But my main point re. less people hearing the first shots is this: how many people were living and sleeping on the estate that night, including some living nearer the ear witnesses, who didn't hear anything? And of those that did, how many heard all the second shots? I think the progression of first shots, dogs barking, screaming, second shots gradually woke a few people but surprisingly few when you think of the potential number that lived near enough.

I think it is possible that the cricket bat (striking the toilet door) has become a distraction and confused the issue. It has allowed the Defence to build a plausible alternative scenario for what happened that evening. I don't think the bat was heard by anyone. Just like the barging of the bedroom door wasn't, or whatever caused the dent in the bath panel (as well as the potentially louder sounds above).

Thanks again Mr Fossil.

On the issue of forensics, as soon as the state had a statement from the Stipps about 2 sets of shots, they would have looked very carefully for any evidence of a second set, not the least to corroborate their witness's testimony.

Some trial watchers are reluctant to criticize the state. I'm not saying that you are one, I'm sure you aren't, but if the state did not investigate thoroughly for evidence of earlier shots, it would have been very sloppy. I'm racking my brain, but I thought they said there was no evidence of further shots being fired.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Wouldn't OP have had a contract with Roux et al to pay the legal fees monthly? If he got behind with his payments, then surely they could have set a budget. I would have thought that the lawyers would have asked how much money OP had to spend on legal fees first and kept to that amount? Oldwage should have been dismissed from the beginning to save on costs. Then again Roux has had a lot of publicity to attract other clients so maybe he was happy to continue whether the legal bills were paid or not.

Sorry, I forgot about the rest of your post. When you have Queen's Counsel, more commonly called Senior Counsel now, i.e. Roux, you always have a junior barrister as well. Being a junior doesn't necessarily mean not as experienced though. You could have, say, a senior junior, i.e. a junior with just as many years under his belt. Anyway, the junior does a huge amount of work before the trial commences, i.e. liaising more with the solicitor, telling him what they need in the brief, preparing documents - and they're very detailed in a big case like this, all the exhibits needed, blah, blah, blah. Both barristers are present for conferences with the client. The senior barrister is the one who deals with the matter in court, studies the law in great detail, prepares long documents called Opinions or Advices which outlines the whole case and gives reasons for his conclusions as to how everything should proceed. There's no way in the wide world Oldwage could have been dispensed with. He had to be present in court because he needs to know everything that's happening. I guess the last week didn't really matter because it was argument and then, supposedly, the end. To win a big case like this can be career-changing.

Hope that explains a bit of the process.

 

[Mr Fossil]

:websleuther:

Thanks again Mr Fossil.

On the issue of forensics, as soon as the state had a statement from the Stipps about 2 sets of shots, they would have looked very carefully for any evidence of a second set, not the least to corroborate their witness's testimony.

Some trial watchers are reluctant to criticize the state. I'm not saying that you are one, but if the state did not investigate thoroughly for evidence of earlier shots, it would have been very sloppy. I'm racking my brain, but I thought they said there was no evidence of further shots being fired.

I'm happy to criticise the State - I think they had far more evidence to play with than was used in court (e.g. they didn't present the phone records correctly IMO).

What I'm saying about forensics is that the Stipps heard two sets of sounds, there were two 'obvious' causes (4 gunshots through toilet door and 3 cricket bat strikes against the toilet door to break it open), so they would conclude perhaps that there is nothing else to look for?

It was Roux who introduced the question about whether the State's case was two sets of gunshots. Nel stood up and after being a bit evasive said that it was the State's case that the shots that killed Reeva were the later sounds. The State has never really committed on what the other set of sounds were AFAIK.

 

[WilliamMunter]

While it's gone a bit quiet, can I just ask a question about the ammunition OP used in his Taurus pistol to shoot Reeva, and the ammo which was found in his safe, please .. I'm a bit confused as to whether the black talon bullets he used in his gun that night were the same type of bullets as those he was storing in his safe (supposedly on behalf of his father), or were they different ones? Could someone please clarify this for me .. TIA!

They were different calibres jay-jay. The ammunition found in the safe were 0.38 calibre and those used in the Taurus are 9mm.

As an aside does anyone remember if there was any record of additional Black Talon ammunition found in the house? Was there a spare magazine? Can one just buy 17 rounds or do you have to buy a whole box?

 

[BritsKate]

Probably best if I don't reply to your post above, especially the BBM.

.. oh, just to address the 'If the tables had been turned and Reeva shot Pistorius, how different would the conversation on this forum be?' .. that's a pointless thing to say because she didn't shoot him. However, I have watched crime programmes where the woman has murdered (either their husband or their children) and I feel exactly the same about them as I do about Pistorius. This has nothing to do with any kind of sistahood sticking up for a sista, just for the sake of it.

Now ain't that the truth? One only need peek into the Travis Alexander forum to rest assured that there is little if any gender bias when it comes to a female perpetrator and an adult male victim. A killer is a killer.

Travis wasn't famous. He wasn't a world class athlete. He was simply a 30 year old man hoping to get married and start a family who hooked up with a woman who'd rather kill him than let him go. Yet there have been few to follow that case who don't believe his murder was heinous, cruel, and entirely premeditated. Or that Jodi Arias isn't a lying, malevolent, parasitic monster.

JMO and FWIW

 

[Mr Fossil]

They were different calibres jay-jay. The ammunition found in the safe were 0.38 calibre and those used in the Taurus are 9mm.

As an aside does anyone remember if there was any record of additional Black Talon ammunition found in the house? Was there a spare magazine? Can one just buy 17 rounds or do you have to buy a whole box?

There was a second magazine which was photographed on the bed. There was a big debate about whether the bullets were Black Talon or Ranger because Black Talon were never issued as 127 grain according to Wollie (they were 147 grain). Some research that I've done suggests that black tipped Ranger (possibly known as Black Talon) were issued to Law Enforcement agencies in the US. They are sold in boxes and packs.

 

[jay-jay]

Originally Posted by WilliamMunter View Post
They were different calibres jay-jay. The ammunition found in the safe were 0.38 calibre and those used in the Taurus are 9mm.

As an aside does anyone remember if there was any record of additional Black Talon ammunition found in the house? Was there a spare magazine? Can one just buy 17 rounds or do you have to buy a whole box?

There was a second magazine which was photographed on the bed. There was a big debate about whether the bullets were Black Talon or Ranger because Black Talon were never issued as 127 grain according to Wollie (they were 147 grain). Some research that I've done suggests that black tipped Ranger (possibly known as Black Talon) were issued to Law Enforcement agencies in the US. They are sold in boxes and packs.

OK, thanks for this, both .. so, were the 9mm Black Talon (or Ranger) bullets legal? .. or were they also illegal to hold/use, just like the .38 calibre bullets in the safe were?

 

[ColonelMustard]

Originally Posted by Sherbert
I suspect he appealed to her maternal instincts. She probably thought that, deep down, he was a decent guy - just a bit moody and wild on the outside - perhaps, due to the prosthetics and the loss of his mother.

Also, when someone is so adored by the public, it's quite easy to be influenced into thinking they must be decent or so many would not have been fooled.


I read somewhere that her mother thought she must have been flattered by all the attention and I agree that this obviously must have played its part.

I suspect he only wanted her for showing off in front of his friends and to bug the ex he keeps texting all the time.

==============

Whose mother? Masipa"s mother??

 

[mrjitty]

:websleuther:

Thanks again Mr Fossil.

On the issue of forensics, as soon as the state had a statement from the Stipps about 2 sets of shots, they would have looked very carefully for any evidence of a second set, not the least to corroborate their witness's testimony.

Some trial watchers are reluctant to criticize the state. I'm not saying that you are one, I'm sure you aren't, but if the state did not investigate thoroughly for evidence of earlier shots, it would have been very sloppy. I'm racking my brain, but I thought they said there was no evidence of further shots being fired.

Well that is really the problem.

If more than 4 rounds are missing from the magazine, then there is a decent chance more than 4 shots are fired as one might expect the magazine to start full.

However if one only recovers 4 casings, then it is needle in a haystack time to recover any extra bullets even if they exist.

 

[jay-jay]

Well that is really the problem.

If more than 4 rounds are missing from the magazine, then there is a decent chance more than 4 shots are fired as one might expect the magazine to start full.

However if one only recovers 4 casings, then it is needle in a haystack time to recover any extra bullets even if they exist.

... but couldn't those extra bullets have been fired at some other time, some other place (i.e. the firing range)?

 

[ColonelMustard]

OP was an adult when he committed this crime. No-one other than him is responsible for any fees incurred unless Arnold made an agreement with the the DT. As it was never going to be just a couple of thousand rand, if there was an agreement it would have been in writing. Arnold did put up the bond, which he'll be getting back within a few weeks, so if what we've heard so far is true, I don't understand why he and the rest of the family are so upset about the legal fees. Something's not quite right here. Roux, as a professional, would never disclose anything about his client. It's all considered privileged information just the same as what you tell your doctor. Of course if it's leaked, that's a different thing entirely. I still think Roux will act for OP whether or not he's paid. Everyone knows he's made a fortune out of this trial and it wouldn't look good at all if he gave up now. Pure speculation though. You always have to expect the unexpected with this matter.

I'm still wondering about the off-shore accounts. If there's money stashed away, that's probably where it is.

I've also heard that lawyers will take on high profile cases for little, less, or not money because of the exposure, publicity, and "going into the history books" for, plus other similar reasons.

Maybe Roux doesn't really care that much. He certainly got more than his share of the other stuff. Maybe media talk on this is all clickbait.

 

[Jake18]

I can't speak for others, but the reasons I do not post anymore are that everytime someone challenged the conventional (on this forum at least) way of thinking, we were labelled "pistorians" who were seduced by OP's fame and were, putting it bluntly, stupid and naive. We were told that no reasonable person could believe what we were saying, and to wait for the verdict when we would be put in our place. A number demanded to know if I would accept the verdict. I said that I would, and asked the same question back - to no response.

So I thought to myself "wait until the verdict, where common sense will prevail". Instead, rather than accepting Masipa's findings, she was immediately labelled incompetent and in the pay of OP's uncle. At that point, I saw that there was really no point, and that the majority of this forum wasn't concerned about the objective truth, but rather pursuing an odd hatred and obsession with OP and proving he committed pre-meditatated murder, and closing their minds completely to any facts that pointed the other way.

So I still read, and often roll my eyes, but I don't think there is much to be added from contributing to the discussion. Masipas's judgment is being appealed, but only on the law. The facts as she found them will stand. I, for one, believe she was right (albeit, I would have relied on different reasoning).

For the record, not that it will make any difference, I should say that (i) I think OP is a nasty piece of work (ii) I think he committed murder; I do not think that he believed that Reeva was in the toilet, but I believe that he intended to kill the intruder he genuinely thought was there (iii) I think 5 years is far too low in prison, it should be 15.

BIB Steve, several of your posts did in fact refer to those who challenged your viewpoint as "OP haters". With respect, given that most (all?) of us are neither Katie Price nor teenage girls I find this an odd phrase and at odds with your supposedly factually based and dispassionate stance. Speaking for myself I believe vehemently that OP murdered Reeva in full knowledge that it was her but I came to that conclusion during the trial, not because I "hated" him. In fact, I genuinely felt reasonable doubt creep in right at the end with the testimony from the orthopaedic surgeon (although less so from Derman) with regard to OP's immobility on stumps and therefore the impossibility of him being able to hold a gun steadily so as to aim. Of course, the leaked recreation video subsequently proved that testimony incorrect.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I can't speak for others, but the reasons I do not post anymore are that everytime someone challenged the conventional (on this forum at least) way of thinking, we were labelled "pistorians" who were seduced by OP's fame and were, putting it bluntly, stupid and naive. We were told that no reasonable person could believe what we were saying, and to wait for the verdict when we would be put in our place. A number demanded to know if I would accept the verdict. I said that I would, and asked the same question back - to no response.

So I thought to myself "wait until the verdict, where common sense will prevail". Instead, rather than accepting Masipa's findings, she was immediately labelled incompetent and in the pay of OP's uncle. At that point, I saw that there was really no point, and that the majority of this forum wasn't concerned about the objective truth, but rather pursuing an odd hatred and obsession with OP and proving he committed pre-meditatated murder, and closing their minds completely to any facts that pointed the other way.

So I still read, and often roll my eyes, but I don't think there is much to be added from contributing to the discussion. Masipas's judgment is being appealed, but only on the law. The facts as she found them will stand. I, for one, believe she was right (albeit, I would have relied on different reasoning).

For the record, not that it will make any difference, I should say that (i) I think OP is a nasty piece of work (ii) I think he committed murder; I do not think that he believed that Reeva was in the toilet, but I believe that he intended to kill the intruder he genuinely thought was there (iii) I think 5 years is far too low in prison, it should be 15.

Thanks for sharing that. It's very hard to be in the minority. In this forum, I fall the other way but I've certainly had my fair share of things going the other way in my larger life. It feels terrible. I hope that I was not disrespectful. That would be wrong. What makes it even worse for me is that when you guys in the minority sincerely tried to explain your reasoning/were you were coming from I was still too dense or "dug In" to my own opinion to "get it."

This is going to sound really weird, and I absolutely know it's not optimal but in cases like this ( which is my very first case. Maybe there's equal polarization in other/all cases, too. But in rare situations do you think the admins might consider opening up parallel threads? That way, each "group" could participate without feeling shut out, etc., if they wanted the support of like-minded folks who would understand those views without the frustration of having to explain it all the time.

 

[ColonelMustard]

BIB Firstly, is there a link for the article quoted in your last paragraph please Vansleuths?
Secondly, it is a relief to see that some are aware of the impact of poor fathering upon young male offspring. I was disappointed that Judge Masipa adopted the 'blame' conveniently placed on OP's dead mother as being one who was overly anxious and slept with a gun under her pillow. She had 3 children she was rearing in highly unstable, apartheid SA. She had a duty to protect her children and herself. Where was OP's father? What impact did his role modelling have during their upbringing? What kind of parenting did he offer or lack thereof? So convenient to blame the mother who cannot defend herself IMO. Given the status of women in SA, OP's mother would most likely have endured disadvantage and vulnerability as a SA white woman rearing three children on her own. Where was Henke? did he abandon his responsibility to his own children? what was his influence? My opinion only.

You're absolutely right - AND - it may be that that was discussed with/among the family and it was an intentional choice. The reasoning might be - and, as a mom, I think it really might be...

If "there are good reasons NOT to involve Henke (whatever they were), there are good reasons TO involve mom, and if mom could give her opinion right now, she'd say,"Of course use me as the fall guy. I love my son and if it would help him do it." Sort of like Derman with his mother polar bear example.

I mean, if I died, and something came up - what it would be I don't know, hopefully my sons wouldn't commit murder! ...buut I guess you never know) where I was needed as a fall guy, I would absolutely, without hesitation say, "I love my son, do whatever it takes. I'm dead /will be dead, it doesn't matter.

 

[RosieC]

This makes so much more sense than the cricket bat making sounds like gunshots.

I hope you can send your research to Nel and Grant even though there probably will not be a retrial.

Actually, in principle a cricket bat striking a wooden door could sound something like a distant gunshot IF the listener is not alert or astute. See http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-watch-alexander-3228570

At one time I thought that was the favoured candidate for the earlier bangs, certainly not for the later.

It was only the Stipps who heard the earlier bangs, they were quite close to the source of the noise, Mrs Stipp was flu-ish, Dr Stipp might have been woken from a deep sleep. To be honest, it isn't so much the sound itself as the tempo of the bat strikes that rules it out, but then the Stipps weren't accurate on the number and tempo of the second "bangs". Some people don't retain the precise detail of what they hear. As long as they retain enough detail, it is good evidence, especially if it is corroborated.

Now I'm unsure about the cricket bat strikes accounting for part of the first sounds, for example because of Mr Fossil's alternative, but don't rule it out either. Oscar has form, ALLEGEDLY, smashing doors in a rage. He settled a court case just before the trial, in which he ALLEGEDLY injured someone smashing down a door. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...accused-assault-slammed-broke-door-party.html

The state were silent on the earlier bangs, I guess because they didn't think they needed it to present their case. Unless they had EVIDENCE that there were further gunshots, it would be speculation. Likewise, I guess, the cricket bat strikes are speculation. IMO they were wrong to make it common cause that the damage to the door occurred after the shots.

There was no corroborating evidence on the first bangs which the Stipps heard, except loosely there are signs of an argument before 03:15 that wasn't only verbal - unless Oscar is very messy, is accident prone in breaking tiles and panels, etc.

What Roux did (in effect repeatedly), which was very devious, was claim that the defence didn't need expert witness testimony that the bat strikes could resemble gunshots, because the Stipps heard the bat strikes and believed that they were gunshots. Of course he then went on to allude to common cause that the gunshots preceded the bat strikes, and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[jay-jay]

BIB Steve, several of your posts did in fact refer to those who challenged your viewpoint as "OP haters". With respect, given that most (all?) of us are neither Katie Price nor teenage girls I find this an odd phrase and at odds with your supposedly factually based and dispassionate stance. Speaking for myself I believe vehemently that OP murdered Reeva in full knowledge that it was her but I came to that conclusion during the trial, not because I "hated" him. In fact, I genuinely felt reasonable doubt creep in right at the end with the testimony from the orthopaedic surgeon (although less so from Derman) with regard to OP's immobility on stumps and therefore the impossibility of him being able to hold a gun steadily so as to aim. Of course, the leaked recreation video subsequently proved that testimony incorrect.

BBM .. yes, same here .. in fact I actually wanted his story to be true because, out of the two horrific scenarios (his 'intruder' version', and the 'domestic fight' version), the intruder version one would've been the slightly (but only very slightly) less horrific version for both Reeva, and for her friends and family to have to deal with. But the minute I started hearing all the ear witness testimonies, Reeva's whatsapp messages, and then OP's testimony itself (and which I could tell, right from the minute he denied knowing anything about what a 'zombie stopper' was), the evidence became so overwhelming that he was lying. I really didn't want it to be, for Reeva and her friend's and family's sakes, but it all became so glaringly obvious as the trial progressed.