Premeditated murder by an Intruder

[Rainsong]

Good to see you Toltec!

BTW John Meyer was also critisized by his very own peers on national television when this info came out. I was shocked to hear this since I hadn't read ST book and didn't have satelite tv at the time. Then I checked out the discussion forums and saw jameson saying that yes it was true that the clippers weren't sterile.

Don't you find it intriguing the way every person involved in the investigation has been criticized by groups of their peers? I certainly do.

Rainsong

 

[Voice of Reason]

I see no difficulty with using the same pair of clippers for various corpses--providing they are thoroughly cleaned after each use. There should also be no problem with using the same clippers for each hand.

Do you perform autopsies for a living? If you don't, you really have no business commenting on what the proper procedure should or could be. It's posts like this that make this board and some of its posters retain false information. If you have a professional basis for this assessment, please say so. If not, don't comment on something that is highly scientific such as an autopsy procedure and the extraction of DNA from under a dead girl's fingernails...

 

[Rainsong]

Do you perform autopsies for a living? If you don't, you really have no business commenting on what the proper procedure should or could be. It's posts like this that make this board and some of its posters retain false information. If you have a professional basis for this assessment, please say so. If not, don't comment on something that is highly scientific such as an autopsy procedure and the extraction of DNA from under a dead girl's fingernails...

Is everyone, including Steve Thomas, who commented on the use of individual clippers for each finger qualified in the area of pathology? Considering the disagreement between jurisdictions on the use of scrapings vs clippings, the use of a single clipper for both hands, ten clippers for ten fingers (assuming the victim still has ten fingers), or the use of a clipper for each hand, would also be open to disagreement.

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

Rainsong & tipper, I'm sure that he asked someone in the coroner's office about the proper procedure. If he hadn't and had that in his book then he could have been sued by JM and the BCC's office as well. I can understand why so many other of JM's peers critisized using one pair of clippers as even when scraping (if the nails are not long enough to clip, or are fake nails) they are to use a clean scraper and a different and clean collection paper for each hand.
However if you're really interested
American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology
go join up so you can read about the proper procedures for yourself...

I know firsthand that clippers are to be sterile, or sterilized before being used on a corpse esp in the preservation of DNA and that a different set is to be used on each hand. It's also standard procedure that is used when collecting DNA evidence from a rape victim.

According to the GBI (and many other PD's, coroner's offices, and hospitals) scraping should be used as a "last resort" when collecting DNA evidence from under a fingernail.

As for Baden moistening the collection swab with tap water, can you please provide a reference to this? Swabbing is not done under fingernails. There is a huge difference between microscopic DNA (as is usually found under the nails) and large samples (as is usually found in a woman's vagina or on the labia), and that's why different techniques are employed to collect these samples.

 

[Rainsong]

Thank you, Seeker. However, as I stated previously, procedure varies widely over different jurisdictions. In some, it is recommended fingernails be scraped. In others, clipping to the quick is preferred.

And I also mentioned the use of a different clipper for each hand.

Moistening a swab to do a vaginal smear or cheek swab could very well cause a breakdown of DNA since DNA is subject to degradation through moist conditions as well as high heat. Any wet samples should be air dried prior to placing the in a paper bindle for processing. Use of distilled water to collect dried samples of blood, semen or other body fluid also requires the sampe to be air dried prior to packaging.

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

Thank you, Seeker. However, as I stated previously, procedure varies widely over different jurisdictions. In some, it is recommended fingernails be scraped. In others, clipping to the quick is preferred.

Rainsong

No hospital, coroner, or other evidence collection authority recommends "scraping" to collect DNA from under the fingernails!
If you're going to make that type of a statement (which is false) you will need to back it up by providing verification.

 

[Jayelles]

I know firsthand that clippers are to be sterile, or sterilized before being used on a corpse esp in the preservation of DNA and that a different set is to be used on each hand. It's also standard procedure that is used when collecting DNA evidence from a rape victim.

My guess is that clippers have to be sterile because bacteria has DNA of its own.

 

[Rainsong]

No hospital, coroner, or other evidence collection authority recommends "scraping" to collect DNA from under the fingernails!
If you're going to make that type of a statement (which is false) you will need to back it up by providing verification.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cach...+forensic+autopsy+procedure+fingernails&hl=en

Edited to add, this is California. There are other jurisdictions that also use scrapings rather than clippings.

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

And just where does it say that scraping is the prefered method? It doesn't...
Oh and this bulleting does not outline the proper procedures during the autopsy, it's a bulletin provided to assist on how someone "might" collect evidence at the crime scene.

Collect samples of any adhering material (e.g. hair, fibers, glass, paint, gunshot residue, and particulate matter from a vehicle) from the front and back of the body before body is washed. This evidence may be collected with fine tipped forceps or by taping. Separate pieces of tape can be used to collect trace evidence from each different part of the body (e.g. right leg, left leg, etc.) and the tape then placed onto clear, plastic sheet protectors or inside clear plastic, petri dishes.
The decedent's fingernails can be examined for damage or foreign material such as tissue, fibers, or hairs. Collect any foreign material from fingernails with a toothpick and place in paper bindles labeled with information about the location of this evidence. If the nails are sufficiently long, they should be clipped and the clippings placed into paper bindles.
In the case of a suspected sexual assault, combings can be taken of the decedent' s pubic area.
Examine the body for the presence of bloody fingerprints. If bloody fingerprints are detected, consider enhancing these prints (after first photographing them) using appropriate reagent spray.
If the victim has broken fingernails (including artificial nails), consider removing the remaining portion so that it could be compared with any nail fragments recovered from another location.

I have actual experience during autopsy procedures in Cal and never has scraping under the fingernails been the prefered method of DNA collection.

 

[Rainsong]

And just where does it say that scraping is the prefered method? It doesn't...
Oh and this bulleting does not outline the proper procedures during the autopsy, it's a bulletin provided to assist on how someone "might" collect evidence at the crime scene.



I have actual experience during autopsy procedures in Cal and never has scraping under the fingernails been the prefered method of DNA collection.

I don't believe I used the word 'preferred.' You might want to take a look at the url I posted. This is a California government document. Perhaps they should be told their document is in error.

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

Rainsong: I don't believe I used the word 'preferred.' You might want to take a look at the url I posted. This is a California government document. Perhaps they should be told their document is in error.

Well it doesn't say it's recommended as you DID tried to imply either.

Rainsong: In some, it is recommended fingernails be scraped. In others, clipping to the quick is preferred.

Actually you used both terms. Either way the bulletin (which I am familiar with) still doesn't say scrapping is recommended even though you tried to use it as an example to bolster what you posted incorrectly earlier. Using a toothpick to PICK out material is not the same as scraping.

 

[Rainsong]

Well it doesn't say it's recommended as you DID tried to imply either.


Actually you used both terms. Either way the bulletin (which I am familiar with) still doesn't say scrapping is recommended even though you tried to use it as an example to bolster what you posted incorrectly earlier. Using a toothpick to PICK out material is not the same as scraping.

Please note I did not personnally recommend or state a preference for either. What I stated was various jurisdictions recommend/prefer as per the link I provided which is to a California State Government document.

Thank you.

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

Please note I did not personnally recommend or state a preference for either. What I stated was various jurisdictions recommend/prefer as per the link I provided which is to a California State Government document.

Thank you.

Rainsong

The recommended/prefered method of collecting DNA evidence from under the fingernails is not in that document. It has NOTHING to do with the proper procedure of collecting DNA evidence during an autopsy.

It's for FIELD collection IF the coroner, or trained evidence collection technician is not available to do the collection of evidence AT THE CRIME SCENE.

You should have read the intro before trying to twist and spin that it states anything at all about recommended or prefered collection methods.

INTRODUCTION

The collection of evidence from the body of a deceased person requires the cooperation of the Coroner's Office (Public Administrator) and all law enforcement agencies. Typically, the Coroner's office has jurisdiction over the body and property of the deceased. It is important that any evidence collected from the deceased be collected with the knowledge and permission of the Coroner's Office. Advise the Coroner's office of what was taken and ensure that any evidence collected be made available to the pathologist.

This bulletin will describe the types of evidence that might be recovered from human remains. It is important to note that some evidence will be much better preserved if it is collected at the crime scene rather than at the morgue. Evidence that can be lost or altered during transport includes: bloodstain patterns, saliva residues from bite marks, gunshot powder residues, and loosely adhering trace evidence. When necessary, remove clothing at the scene. In addition, biological evidence (e.g. semen evidence taken by swabs from body cavities) may be better preserved if collected as soon as possible, dried and stored frozen. Although it may be desirable to collect such evidence at the crime scene, it may not always be possible due to conditions at the scene or the policies of a particular Coroner's Office. In these cases, photographs must be used to capture important pattern, position and location information before the body is moved. Ensure that intermediate (from different angles) and close-up photographs are obtained to adequately document evidence.


General considerations for the collection and handling of evidence


Safeguards while handling biological samples include:
Treat all biological samples as infective material. Follow your agency's Bloodborne Pathogen Plan. Wear gloves.
Keep any contaminated surface (e.g. gloved hand) away from face to prevent contact with mucosal membranes (e.g. eyes, nose).
After dealing with evidence, properly dispose of gloves and wash hands with germicidal soap.
Photography - Close-up photography
Maintain the film plane parallel to object being photographed
Fill the frame with the subject matter and appropriate scale
Use appropriate ruler or scale/sometimes it may be important to also take a photograph without a scale.
Take photographs as examination/autopsy proceeds. Insure that overall photographs of all body surfaces are taken before and after the body is unclothed and cleaned up. Insure that both the outside and inside surface of both hands and the tops and bottoms of both feet are photographed.

You should have actually READ the document instead of relying just the highlighted words... Btw neither of the words "recommend", "recommended", "scrape" nor "scrapping" even appears anywhere in the entire document so using it to try and bolster what you posted here certainly backfired on you didn't it?

 

[Rainsong]

The recommended/prefered method of collecting DNA evidence from under the fingernails is not in that document. It has NOTHING to do with the proper procedure of collecting DNA evidence during an autopsy.

It's for FIELD collection IF the coroner, or trained evidence collection technician is not available to do the collection of evidence AT THE CRIME SCENE.

You should have read the intro before trying to twist and spin that it states anything at all about recommended or prefered collection methods.



You should have actually READ the document instead of relying just the highlighted words... Btw neither of the words "recommend", "recommended", "scrape" nor "scrapping" even appears anywhere in the entire document so using it to try and bolster what you posted here certainly backfired on you didn't it?

Seeker, you stated that what I had posted was a lie. I gave you an url to a government issued document wherein procedures are outlined. It is not up to me to decide whether or not the state government of California recommends or prefers one procedure over another. What is apparent is various jurisdictons have their own protocols.

To wit:
California states scrapings
Mississipi states both (Save fingernail clippings and any under-nail tissue (nail scrapings http://www.icrc.org/themissi.nsf/0/ba3902ca62ce4044c1256b02005c999f?OpenDocument)
Indiana states scrappings ( Fingernail Scraping Collection Procedures as per their Protocol Manual-- http://www.incasa.org/resources/protocol_manual.htm)

Other states use clippings. According to the website of Indiana Coalition Against Sexual Assault (INCASA), Although a few states and several individual communities in the country already have standardized protocols, many do not.

Please refrain from saying my statement is false when, in fact, it is not and I have proven such.

Rainsong

 

[JBRMod2]

Please empty your inbox and let me know when you have done so.

 

[Rainsong]

And just where does it say that scraping is the prefered method? It doesn't...

How does one collect trace evidence from under fingernails with a toothpick if one does not scrape?

Rainsong

 

[Seeker]

JBR Mod2, I did.

Rainsong, I edited out anything saying you were lying since I was typing when somewhat emotional even though you were totally incorrect and instead of admitting it compounded the wrong information by trying to argue something was there when it wasn't.

California does not recommend scraping. Please stop saying it does.

Also http://www.icrc.org/themissi.nsf/0/...9f?OpenDocument) does NOT say it's recommended to scrape under the nails. It only says to save the CLIPPINGS and under nail scrapings. It's either or, not both.

(xvi) Note any broken or missing fingernails. Note any gunpowder residue on the hands, document photographically and save it for analysis. Take fingerprints in all cases. If the decedent's identity is unknown and fingerprints cannot be obtained, remove the "glove" of the skin, if present. Save the fingers if no other means of obtaining fingerprints is possible. Save fingernail clippings and any under-nail tissue (nail scrapings). Examine the fingernail and toenail beds for evidence of objects having been pushed beneath the nails. Nails can be removed by dissecting the lateral margins and proximal base, and then the undersurface of the nails can be inspected. If this is done, the hands must be photographed before and after the nails are removed.

Scrapings are only taken for the following reasons. If the nail is too short to clip, or if the nail is too thick to cut with clippers as would be the case with fake nails.

Second link is specific to sexual assault victims.

Neither site provided statements recommending fingernail scrapings...

Rainsong, you haven't worked in a morgue so you wouldn't know that clipping the fingernails is the prefered and recommended procedure. Scraping is only in cases where clipping is improbable.

 

[Seeker]

How does one collect trace evidence from under fingernails with a toothpick if one does not scrape?

Rainsong

Again, that is for the field collection, not during an autopsy.

We are talking about what Meyer should have done when collecting JB's fingernails. He clipped them with previously used clippers that were allegedly not sterilized first.

 

[Rainsong]

Again, that is for the field collection, not during an autopsy.

We are talking about what Meyer should have done when collecting JB's fingernails. He clipped them with previously used clippers that were allegedly not sterilized first.

"Allegedly" being the key word, dont' you agree?

Given the great care he took in the remainder of the autopsy, I find it difficult that Dr. Meyer would have been careless in collection of what could be important evidence. The autopsy is covered quite well in PMPT and Schiller stresses the care John Meyer took in the examination and recording of his findings.

Rainsong

 

[Rainsong]

JBR Mod2, I did.
Rainsong, you haven't worked in a morgue so you wouldn't know that clipping the fingernails is the prefered and recommended procedure. Scraping is only in cases where clipping is improbable.

Seeker, one should never assume.

I listed sites which detail the various procedures used in several jurisdictions. Certainly clipping is preferred over scrapings and Dr. Meyer noted JonBenet's fingernails were indeed long enough to be clipped. The question is not which is preferred, but whether or not Dr. Meyer used contaminated clippers. That allegation came from Thomas and was cited from his book. What would be interesting is to find where the 'rumor' of contaminated clippers arose.

Rainsong