Premeditation

[Wudge]

I remember that case that you are talking about. Obviously, I didn't follow it as much as I have with this case. But I remember some vague details.

I do agree...KC's overall demeanor, appearance etc...are not evidence of guilt. There are a lot of unlikeable people out who don't commit crimes. I will say that once she is convicted...the defense is going to have one whopper of a time trying to show that she is worth saving. She may be, outside of Scott Peterson (the one we heard on the Amber tapes...not the faker he was at trial and in television views...the real one) the least likeable and salvagable defendent in a high profile case that I have seen in a long time. Well, Phil Spector...but he also had the added bonus (by that I mean something the very deceptive and attractive KC and Scott didn't have) of being the most creepy looking defendent on the planet. Creepy doesn't begin to cut his appearance. But as you wisely and sagely pointed out...appearance, likeability do not make someone guilty...but KC has enough strikes against her on that score that it will make an impression on the jury. But hey, that is life. And KC is in a mess of her own making. So I shed no tears.


Another thing that might go into premeditation...could be whatever JT alleges KC purchased at the Walmart that day. I have no idea. But his information would not have come before April 2009 when the DP was put back on the table.

So I am just curious to see if LE was able to track down her purchase (if it is true that KC was there and made one)...so far I don't have much reason to doubt the witness that came forward and I don't think he would have wound up on the SA's list of witnesses unless throughly checked out. I wonder if LE had an surveillance tapes or if they were able to track her purchase. He alleges in a written statement at this link http://marinadedave.wordpress.com/2009/10/10/james-thompson-responds/ that KC held her purchase very close to the chest and appeared from his vantage point in the bag to be either a bottle or a small box. Many thought she often drugged her daughter so she could get busy with the men in the phone book...but it would be interesting if said purchase could be linked with items found at the dump site...just a thought.

With the evidence that we know of, the judge should not let the trial proceed with the murder one charge. However, that would take great courage and integrity, and it's something few judges would do if they were handed a monster high-profile case such as this one.

 

[cecybeans]

I believe your current position to be that Casey was most likely in a state of rage when Caylee died (was murdered). Typically, that would be murder two, not murder one.

In any event, a conviction of murder one based on the evidence that we know of would eventually cause me to find a place for Casey on my list of likely wrongful convictions. And after years went by, there's a decent chance that something, somewhere, would cause her murder one conviction to reversed, which would formally make it yet another wrongful conviction in a high-profile case.

Is the fact that this is a child under twelve (and not a fully functioning adult who might defend themselves) part of the reason that it would be Murder One in FL (and other states) rather than Murder Two?

 

[Bittiness39]

With the evidence that we know of, the judge should not let the trial proceed with the murder one charge. However, that would take great courage and integrity, and it's something few judges would do if they were handed a monster high-profile case such as this one.

Its the evidence we don't have. Don't know about...that should be what settles it for me. And I would imagine that the SA's office is very prepared for their hearing with Baez and the Judge next Friday. So far, I have been pleased with his rulings thus far. Very fair. If there is not the evidence to support the DP, I would imagine that is something he would take very seriously.

I, however, think that there is. JMO. It was about 4 and 1/2 months from the time the remains were found that the DP was put back on the table. Remains being found don't necessarily support a DP charge. Unless enough evidence was collected at the site of the remains to suggest otherwise. And the medical examiner came out soon after the remains were identified to say it was homicide by undetermined means.

Since they were not knee jerk about putting it right back on the table in say January of 2009...less than a month...I think something they found with the remains...along with the mountain of stuff they have on her = DP worthy.

This SA's has their stuff together. They really do. IF only more SA/LE officials could be as thorough and as competent as they are...that is the real tragedy. Maybe they could teach a course. My first suggestion would be to go straight to L.A., California...they could use the help. I am also thrilled that we don't have a Lance Ito type judge in this case.

So other than JB's attempts to muck it up for his client...KC is getting about as fair of a shot as she deserves. I want a level playing field. I want the conviction to stick. And I want the money from her commissary account given to charity.

 

[Wudge]

Is the fact that this is a child under twelve (and not a fully functioning adult who might defend themselves) part of the reason that it would be Murder One in FL (and other states) rather than Murder Two?

No. Prosecutors prefer a capital case for a simple reason. That reason being that it affords them the privilege of selecting a death-qualified jury.

 

[Wudge]

Its the evidence we don't have. Don't know about...that should be what settles it for me. And I would imagine that the SA's office is very prepared for their hearing with Baez and the Judge next Friday. So far, I have been pleased with his rulings thus far. Very fair. If there is not the evidence to support the DP, I would imagine that is something he would take very seriously.

I, however, think that there is. JMO. It was about 4 and 1/2 months from the time the remains were found that the DP was put back on the table. Remains being found don't necessarily support a DP charge. Unless enough evidence was collected at the site of the remains to suggest otherwise. And the medical examiner came out soon after the remains were identified to say it was homicide by undetermined means.

Since they were not knee jerk about putting it right back on the table in say January of 2009...less than a month...I think something they found with the remains...along with the mountain of stuff they have on her = DP worthy.

This SA's has their stuff together. They really do. IF only more SA/LE officials could be as thorough and as competent as they are...that is the real tragedy. Maybe they could teach a course. My first suggestion would be to go straight to L.A., California...they could use the help. I am also thrilled that we don't have a Lance Ito type judge in this case.

So other than JB's attempts to muck it up for his client...KC is getting about as fair of a shot as she deserves. I want a level playing field. I want the conviction to stick. And I want the money from her commissary account given to charity.

With the evidence in the public domain, no one, anywhere, has been able to present clear evidence that supports murder one. And we both know that the D.A.'s game is to first prosecute (and persecute) the defendant in the media with all the guns at their disposal -- no one is saving a smoking gun for the trial.

(Good grief counselor, don't you think that wanting the money from her commissary account to go to charity might be just a little bit ... uh, uh, much (anal) at this point. ... chuckle ... Has anyone ever suggested treating yourself to a short humane break or a chatting around for a new social Director? ... smile )

 

[Bittiness39]

With the evidence in the public domain, no one, anywhere, has been able to present clear evidence that supports murder one. And we both know that the D.A.'s game is to first prosecute (and persecute) the defendant in the media with all the guns at their disposal -- no one is saving a smoking gun for the trial.

(Good grief counselor, don't you think that wanting the money from her commissary account to go to charity might be just a little bit ... uh, uh, much (anal) at this point. ... chuckle ... Has anyone ever suggested treating yourself to a short humane break or a chatting around for a new social Director? ... smile )

Well...given how I feel about the DP....I would be fine if the DP was elimated in all 50 states. But those are my feelings on the matter. I do feel that the victim's family, no matter the circumstances, should have a say in the matter and that their say should be treated with respect.


Sorry for the loss of your dear friend. This is always a bad time of year for me. I lost my dad 4 years ago and it still smarts like the dickens. I especially miss him because it is football season...and he and I loved watching Longhorn football together.

As for the Sunshine law itself...I would imagine that if the Defense had wanted a gag order in the case they would have won their motion. But they wanted to go on television and tell us how KC is innocent and that they will prove it in court. And make dubious references to evidence that they already had in their possession. This will come back to bite them. :croc:

I was only partially joking about the commissary account. But I think inmates should earn the money in it. Or have a one pop tart/twinkie a day limit. LOL.

 

[Rlaub44]

With the evidence in the public domain, no one, anywhere, has been able to present clear evidence that supports murder one. And we both know that the D.A.'s game is to first prosecute (and persecute) the defendant in the media with all the guns at their disposal -- no one is saving a smoking gun for the trial.

(Good grief counselor, don't you think that wanting the money from her commissary account to go to charity might be just a little bit ... uh, uh, much (anal) at this point. ... chuckle ... Has anyone ever suggested treating yourself to a short humane break or a chatting around for a new social Director? ... smile )

Wudge, you make some thoughtworthy points, but I sometimes find it hard to consider them because you often postulate things as if they are indisputable facts.

No one, anywhere, in your opinion, has presented clear evidence that supports murder one. Remember that many others here do see the possibility of premeditation. Like it or not, we are the same type of people that will sit on the jury. All evidence is to be considered and weighed by the jurors, and they will hear much of what we already know, and likely other things that we don't yet. They will have a presentation by the State in a logical order designed to tell a story, and defense will have their own opportunities to knock down the prosecutor's theories and counter with their own (if they wish).

I apologize if it sounds as if I am talking down to you; I am not trying to do that. However, it is helpful to keep the process in mind to recall that the American justice system is not a computer program in which we enter the data and it objectively spits out the verdict. Human sensibilities are part and parcel of the equation, and although I sense you may disagree, I think we get it right most of the time.

Again, I really appreciate your views on this case, as they give me a chance to challenge my own beliefs. But we all are entitled to our opinion regarding whether the evidence supports a charge of premeditated murder. It would help me to consider your valuable ideas if they were phrased in that vein. Thanks for your perspective!

 

[cecybeans]

With the evidence in the public domain, no one, anywhere, has been able to present clear evidence that supports murder one. And we both know that the D.A.'s game is to first prosecute (and persecute) the defendant in the media with all the guns at their disposal -- no one is saving a smoking gun for the trial.

(Good grief counselor, don't you think that wanting the money from her commissary account to go to charity might be just a little bit ... uh, uh, much (anal) at this point. ... chuckle ... Has anyone ever suggested treating yourself to a short humane break or a chatting around for a new social Director? ... smile )

That may be the party line (according to defense attorneys, I'm sure DA's would disagree), but frankly I have not seen any SA in this case make any kind of public statement whatsoever that would imply anything they thought. Zip. The worst thing one of the SA's has done is roll his eyes in court at one of many unnecessary, dramatic and improperly prepared motions by the defense, as they pontificated about how unfair they were being treated in front of court cameras.

Most of the good dirt came out through discovery and the fact that FL makes evidence that is released public. Unless you are implying that the media is on the payroll of LE, which I know you are not, it would seem a tad paranoid to automatically subscribe to that bias here.

The jurisprudence world is full of examples where both sides had an unfair advantage. I have not been given any reasons, other than anecdotal, that defense attorneys suffer undue hardship over their counterparts, although I am mighty willing to hear what academic evidence there exists to support such a claim.

 

[Wudge]

Well...given how I feel about the DP....I would be fine if the DP was elimated in all 50 states. But those are my feelings on the matter. I do feel that the victim's family, no matter the circumstances, should have a say in the matter and that their say should be treated with respect.


Sorry for the loss of your dear friend. This is always a bad time of year for me. I lost my dad 4 years ago and it still smarts like the dickens. I especially miss him because it is football season...and he and I loved watching Longhorn football together.

As for the Sunshine law itself...I would imagine that if the Defense had wanted a gag order in the case they would have won their motion. But they wanted to go on television and tell us how KC is innocent and that they will prove it in court. And make dubious references to evidence that they already had in their possession. This will come back to bite them. :croc:

I was only partially joking about the commissary account. But I think inmates should earn the money in it. Or have a one pop tart/twinkie a day limit. LOL.

V V

Life is a game that must be played, this truth at least good friend we know, so live and laugh nor be dismayed, as one by one the phantoms go. God bless your Father. God bless my brother.

I have to believe that you're an Austin gal. A few years ago, I went looking for a good Italian restaurant there and was referred to Dallas.

I'm still ok with the death penalty in truly hard evidence cases (serial killers et al), but certainly not cases such as this one. Based on very likely wrongful execution cases such as Cameron Willingham (Texas), I believe the days of the death penalty are drawing to a close. If Texas were to allow Darlie Routier to be executed, I think that would be their final yellow rose.

(The only thing left after forwarding their commisary money to a charity is selling their toohbrush on Ebay.)

 

[Wudge]

Wudge, you make some thoughtworthy points, but I sometimes find it hard to consider them because you often postulate things as if they are indisputable facts.

SNIP

Remember that many others here do see the possibility of premeditation.

SNIP


I think we get it right most of the time.

Again, I really appreciate your views on this case, as they give me a chance to challenge my own beliefs. But we all are entitled to our opinion regarding whether the evidence supports a charge of premeditated murder. It would help me to consider your valuable ideas if they were phrased in that vein. Thanks for your perspective!

'Possible' is not a valid basis to convict anyone, much less execute them. Moreover, Courts don't deal in possibilities. They deal in probabilities -- and do a poor job of it.

I agree that the majority of jury verdicts are likely correct, it's the 10% to 20% that juries get wrong that crush my spirits, ruin millions of lives and poison our system.

Don't worry about offending me, I admit to having a huge ego. And fifty plus years of assessing evidence and fine tuning your antenna to pick up wrongful convictions does tend to deaden you to criticism.

 

[Bittiness39]

V V

Life is a game that must be played, this truth at least good friend we know, so live and laugh nor be dismayed, as one by one the phantoms go. God bless your Father. God bless my brother.

I have to believe that you're an Austin gal. A few years ago, I went looking for a good Italian restaurant there and was referred to Dallas.

I'm still ok with the death penalty in truly hard evidence cases (serial killers et al), but certainly not cases such as this one. Based on very likely wrongful execution cases such as Cameron Willingham (Texas), I believe the days of the death penalty are drawing to a close. If Texas were to allow Darlie Routier to be executed, I think that would be their final yellow rose.

(The only thing left after forwarding their commisary money to a charity is selling their toohbrush on Ebay.)

Yep. I am pure Texan. And an Austin girl to boot. But I wasn't born there. But I am a Longhorn. I am trying to get back there. I had a fabulous interview with a television station last Friday and am hoping to get the job.

Houston has better restaurants. I don't know about Italian...in Austin. So much has changed in the small time since I lived there. I barely recognize it when I go back.

I don't know how the SA will line up the premeditation. But apparently this is the Defense's way of saying, I guess...put it all out there...show your entire hand...by doing it via a hearing in open court. I don't know what all there is out there though.

Since you seem to be very intelligent...do you know much about how long the defense can hold onto documents with the Sunshine law before said documents are released to the public? The reason I ask...is because on our last document dump yesterday...the information on the duct tape was given to the defense team in March but only given to us yesterday. Will we have to wait a similar amount of time for the entomology results just handed over to the defense yesterday before seeing them? I have heard rumors of coffin flies...which I think would completely destroy any idea that it was an accidental drowning. I am assuming. But I don't know. How long can the defense keep a document before it is released under the SunShine Law?

I admit I tried reading through it but I could not find a time frame. It appears the SA hands over documents when they are ready to the defense. The defense goes through them...and then eventually they make their way to the public. It just seems if they had the Henkel duct tape stuff since March...that there has to be some time limit (the stuff we got yesterday).

 

[RR0004]

No. An expert testified at trial that if Todd Sommer had been murdered with arsenic, then arsenic should have been found in everyone of his organs. However, it was only found, erroneousely, in but a few of his organs -- bunk on the alleged error, there was no error in my book , I hold it to be corrupt lab work.

After Cynthia was convicted, sentenced and imprisoned an alternate juror, Lorie Cosio Azar, said the jurors who deliberated told her after the trial that they overlooked doubts about the arsenic. Lorie said: "They were annoyed the defense attorney brought up arsenic, because, otherwise, why were we there? They thought, `Of course there must be something wrong, there must have been a murder. We're here in the courthouse.'"

(When exonerating evidence is purposefully ignored, at best that is jury error ... putting it nicely.)

...and that is my point. Therein lies the problem with dueling "experts". The prosecution's expert won out this first go round...while a different expert proved (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the lab work had been corrupt. Because someone heard from someone else what jurors supposedly said does not mean IMO that the jury failed.

 

[Wudge]

Yep. I am pure Texan. And an Austin girl to boot. But I wasn't born there. But I am a Longhorn. I am trying to get back there. I had a fabulous interview with a television station last Friday and am hoping to get the job.

Houston has better restaurants. I don't know about Italian...in Austin. So much has changed in the small time since I lived there. I barely recognize it when I go back.

I don't know how the SA will line up the premeditation. But apparently this is the Defense's way of saying, I guess...put it all out there...show your entire hand...by doing it via a hearing in open court. I don't know what all there is out there though.

Since you seem to be very intelligent...do you know much about how long the defense can hold onto documents with the Sunshine law before said documents are released to the public? The reason I ask...is because on our last document dump yesterday...the information on the duct tape was given to the defense team in March but only given to us yesterday. Will we have to wait a similar amount of time for the entomology results just handed over to the defense yesterday before seeing them? I have heard rumors of coffin flies...which I think would completely destroy any idea that it was an accidental drowning. I am assuming. But I don't know. How long can the defense keep a document before it is released under the SunShine Law?

I admit I tried reading through it but I could not find a time frame. It appears the SA hands over documents when they are ready to the defense. The defense goes through them...and then eventually they make their way to the public. It just seems if they had the Henkel duct tape stuff since March...that there has to be some time limit (the stuff we got yesterday).

Best of luck in securing the job in Austin. There are many truly wondeful people there.

Houston does have better restaurants. It's their crime lab that needs humongous remedial work - the world's absolute worst ... just ghastly.

Regarding Florida's Sunshine law, unless the information is sealed, I suspect it's two weeks -- unless it is highly inculpatory, then it would be leaked at the 1st chance. The Courts can and do seal information, and when that happens, the Sunshine law no longer controls.

 

[ZsaZsa]

'Possible' is not a valid basis to convict anyone, much less execute them. Moreover, Courts don't deal in possibilities. They deal in probabilities -- and do a poor job of it.

I agree that the majority of jury verdicts are likely correct, it's the 10% to 20% that juries get wrong that crush my spirits, ruin millions of lives and poison our system.

Don't worry about offending me, I admit to having a huge ego. And fifty plus years of assessing evidence and fine tuning your antenna to pick up wrongful convictions does tend to deaden you to criticism.

I am just a lay person but as far as getting it wrong, I feel there are probably many more people who get away with murder than are wrongly convicted.
When some of the cases I have been interested in have been dissected after the fact, and you find out just how much information is withheld from the Jury,previous history of the same crime ,vital evidence that is omitted on a technicality, etc that I marvel that Juries get it right at all sometimes. Circumstantial cases rely on an accumulation of pieces into a collection that becomes so weighty that any other conclusion than guilty would defy logic.
Scott Peterson was convicted on mainly circumstantial , so was Timothy McVeigh, very little direct evidence was produced.One is on death row and the other was executed.
Jurors can also make an assessment of the person's likely involvement in the crime by examining their behavior around the time of the crime, which is why Casey's lifestyle has come under such scrutiny. Nothing she has done or said was consistent with an anxious, grief stricken mother whose child is missing.

 

[Bittiness39]

Best of luck in securing the job in Austin. There are many truly wondeful people there.

Houston does have better restaurants. It's their crime lab that needs humongous remedial work - the world's absolute worst ... just ghastly.

Regarding Florida's Sunshine law, unless the information is sealed, I suspect it's two weeks -- unless it is highly inculpatory, then it would be leaked at the 1st chance. The Courts can and do seal information, and when that happens, the Sunshine law no longer controls.

TY! Houston's crime lab is a joke.

My father didn't work there...up in the Panhandle for 30 years as a Pathologist...he would curse a blue streak over stuff like this. My dad was the type of guy to flip one slide three ways to Sunday to find anything...he didn't care about how many slides he went through a day. Just sat at his desk with a recorder with three peddles...rewind...stop and record and dictate what he saw in it. Best I ever saw and probably will ever see.

I get the stuff that could be sealed. ie...Casey's reaction to the remains and subsequent behavior in front of Baez shortly thereafter (without audio). The first I think should be used at trial if needed. The later I think is a violation of the attorney client privilege and should not be used.

So there is a period of time that the defense has to review the evidence before we get it? It sounds like that should be the case regardless...so they have to review...object...try to seal it or whatever. Do they know in advance what documents they will be given by the Prosecution? I am just thinking that the release of the entomology stuff...given the tit for tat stuff going on between the SA and Baez that they released it before the hearing for a reason. But that is just me.

If there were coffin flies...that would be extremely damaging for the defense...but I have no knowledge that there were actual coffin flies involved. Guess we will find out in a week or more...but they did say that another document dump will happen within the week.

The other thing is we got the information on Casey's tattoo yesterday...but it was supposedly in the last document dump prior to yesterday. But it wasn't in that dump. I guess their Sunshine Law reads like sanscrit or stereo instructions to me...because I am still not understanding what happens after the state gives over the documents to the defense before we get them.

 

[Wudge]

...and that is my point. Therein lies the problem with dueling "experts". The prosecution's expert won out this first go round...while a different expert proved (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the lab work had been corrupt. Because someone heard from someone else what jurors supposedly said does not mean IMO that the jury failed.

Unfortunately, this went beyond just dueling experts.

The defense put four experts the witness stand who explained to the jury why arsenic poisoning was out of the question. One of the experts who testified for the defense was Laura Labay. Laura worked for NMS Labs of Willow Grove, Pa.. They had retested some of Todd's tissue samples that were previously tested by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. This was the organization that had found, allegedly, lethal levels of arsenic in two of Todd's organs; those organs being his liver and kidney. However, stunningly, neither his blood nor skin nor hair nor heart nor brain nor urine nor any other bodily tissue tested positive for high levels of arsenic poisoning.

Ms. Labay further testified that AFIP's testing protocol was 'unacceptable.'

Just as an aside, on a forensic basis, the Court was asked to investigate alleged juror misconduct -- a retired San Diego Detective (say it ain't so, Joe).

(Jury error is my gift rating)

 

[Brini]

...but the jury was also given false information. Considering what was presented to them-arsenic found in his system-coupled with her overall behavior, jurors imo were not derelict in their duties by offering up a guilty vote (nor does it prove that they were swayed by her getting a "boob" job). It was science that saved this woman in the end. I believe it will be science that ultimately convicts casey.

potd!

 

[Wudge]

I am just a lay person but as far as getting it wrong, I feel there are probably many more people who get away with murder than are wrongly convicted.
When some of the cases I have been interested in have been dissected after the fact, and you find out just how much information is withheld from the Jury,previous history of the same crime ,vital evidence that is omitted on a technicality, etc that I marvel that Juries get it right at all sometimes. Circumstantial cases rely on an accumulation of pieces into a collection that becomes so weighty that any other conclusion than guilty would defy logic.
Scott Peterson was convicted on mainly circumstantial , so was Timothy McVeigh, very little direct evidence was produced.One is on death row and the other was executed.
Jurors can also make an assessment of the person's likely involvement in the crime by examining their behavior around the time of the crime, which is why Casey's lifestyle has come under such scrutiny. Nothing she has done or said was consistent with an anxious, grief stricken mother whose child is missing.

The death penalty was reinstated in America in 1976. From 1976 to date,1175 prisoners have been executed. During the same time, 130 prisoners have been exonerated.

The standard of review for the death penalty is 'no lingering doubt.' This is a step above 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'. Yet at that higher proof standard, the exoneration to conviction ratio is 130/1175. That's higher than 10%.

If we can't get death penalty verdicts called right, what hope is there for the rest of jury called verdicts?

(In the immortal words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and it is us".)

 

[Brini]

Well...given how I feel about the DP....I would be fine if the DP was elimated in all 50 states. But those are my feelings on the matter. I do feel that the victim's family, no matter the circumstances, should have a say in the matter and that their say should be treated with respect.


Sorry for the loss of your dear friend. This is always a bad time of year for me. I lost my dad 4 years ago and it still smarts like the dickens. I especially miss him because it is football season...and he and I loved watching Longhorn football together.

As for the Sunshine law itself...I would imagine that if the Defense had wanted a gag order in the case they would have won their motion. But they wanted to go on television and tell us how KC is innocent and that they will prove it in court. And make dubious references to evidence that they already had in their possession. This will come back to bite them. :croc:

I was only partially joking about the commissary account. But I think inmates should earn the money in it. Or have a one pop tart/twinkie a day limit. LOL.

The defense's rejection of a gag order has already come back to bite them.

The defense is directly responsible for all of the releases of evidence and for giving the media the weapons they needed to go after KC.

 

[RR0004]

But, what has this to do with KC's trial?

Do you think she's innocent?

...and "premeditation"?

Sorry, Brini.