Premeditation

[Wudge]

Why were those 130 'poor souls' convicted in the first place? Were all the Labs incompetent, all the Jurors out for blood, all the defense Attorneys hopeless,all the Prosecutors out to persecute innocent people in order to improve their statistics?
We have a couple of 'poor souls' in our area right now, unfortunately. I'm afraid your argument has no resonance with me, so I will agree to disagree with you, I just don't believe it and so I will get back on topic.

A major component in many of the 130 wrongful convictions was erroneous eyewitness testimony. Other significant factors include: prosecutors withholding exonerating or exculpatory evidence evidence (prosecutorial misconduct), LE manufacturing inculpatory evidence or giving false testimony (testilying), false testimony from jail house informants, junk science testimony, and false confessions that were recanted to no avail.

 

[Bittiness39]

BBM

I agree with you that the release of the entomology report before the hearing is for a purpose.

Finding coffin flies wouldn't be the nail in KC's coffin. Not finding blow flies along with the coffin flies would be a problem. The adipocere (found on the napkins in KC's car trunk) is also not great for KC. Not finding blow flies and finding "grave wax" (which needs an anaerobic environment to form & survive) suggests Caylee was sealed in the trunk shortly after death (or worse while still alive).

Neil Haskell is to "bugs and murder" what Henry Lee is to blood spatter. He's THE authority. He's charismatic. Juries love him.
jmo

I love your dog in your avatar. ITA with all you said!!

 

[Bakersmom]

I would imagine though amoung the many differences in this case from the others...is that neither was driving around in a car reaking of dead toddler. Blaming a phantom nanny.

But you are correct in the sense that I have seen nothing that can show YET (and I stress the YET because I believe that the dark lass that is KC will be found guilty and rightfully so) that it was an accidental car death/death by trunk/death by drugging and car...NOR a deliberate attempt to kill her. That is where the reasonable doubt lies. The state is charged with proving that the defendent killed her with premeditation and obvious neglect. The defense only has to present reasonable doubt.

I know that most think we have seen all we are going to see that suggests premeditation...ect...that there are no smoking guns. Nothing that will make that link stick. I am betting my almost paid for car that there is. Call it a hunch. JMO.

It will be interesting to see the "bug report". I'd like for the prosecution to add a charge of "Abuse of a corpse". Double bagging a dead child and throwing them out into a swamp area screams of this charge.

 

[Brini]

I would imagine though amoung the many differences in this case from the others...is that neither was driving around in a car reaking of dead toddler. Blaming a phantom nanny.

But you are correct in the sense that I have seen nothing that can show YET (and I stress the YET because I believe that the dark lass that is KC will be found guilty and rightfully so) that it was an accidental car death/death by trunk/death by drugging and car...NOR a deliberate attempt to kill her. That is where the reasonable doubt lies. The state is charged with proving that the defendent killed her with premeditation and obvious neglect. The defense only has to present reasonable doubt.

I know that most think we have seen all we are going to see that suggests premeditation...ect...that there are no smoking guns. Nothing that will make that link stick. I am betting my almost paid for car that there is. Call it a hunch. JMO.

And, if it WAS an accident, KC is refusing to cop to it. She is insisting on the SODDI thing.

So far, KC is the prosecution's star witness. Between her refusal to face facts and her attorney's mistakes, the defense seems to be a bit of a debacle.

 

[Bittiness39]

It will be interesting to see the "bug report". I'd like for the prosecution to add a charge of "Abuse of a corpse". Double bagging a dead child and throwing them out into a swamp area screams of this charge.

I want to see the bug report too. We have hair with a death band. We have a stain that appears to some to be a child curled up in fetal position. We have the smell of death in the car. We have trash bags and a laundry bag that is linked to the A home. We have a mother not reporting her child missing for a month.

What I hope to see is something that suggests there was no accident she was trying to cover up for. I don't at all believe there was an accident. Nothing about KC suggests that it could be. But it is plausible that she drugged/and or just left her in the trunk for the date with her flavor of the month. Panicked because...well while her parents might rake her over the coals for an accidental drowning...this is far more horrific and sinister...flies into panic mode (which I truly haven't seen given her texts, behavior etc...) can't stay at home anymore because she can't show a live Caylee. And shacks up with whomever I guess thinking her parents will forget Caylee existed?

I know the totality of what we have seen thus far proves KC is responsible for Caylee's demise...but in what way? I do not want to help the defense. That would sicken me more than eating Sushi...but I just...I want to see how they lay it out so the jury members won't think, "Well it could have been an accident and not intentional..." because I do believe the SA has enough for manslaughter...etc...no question...but do they have enough for the ultimate penalty? I have to believe they do. The SA's office has been very competent and well prepared. I just wish I was privvy to what they have/know/theory of what happened and how they intend to lay it out. But we will have to wait a WHILE for most of that.

I am waiting for the bug stuff...cuz I think it will be a doozy. Hey JB...have you found Zenaida yet? :loser:

 

[Brini]

A major component in many of the 130 wrongful convictions was erroneous eyewitness testimony. Other significant factors include: prosecutors withholding exonerating or exculpatory evidence evidence (prosecutorial misconduct), LE manufacturing inculpatory evidence or giving false testimony (testilying), false testimony from jail house informants, junk science testimony, and false confessions that were recanted to no avail.

Well, something is working better, now. Or, there would have not been 130 exonerations. Weren't 23 of them in FL?

 

[Dear Prudence]

Why were those 130 'poor souls' convicted in the first place? Were all the Labs incompetent, all the Jurors out for blood, all the defense Attorneys hopeless,all the Prosecutors out to persecute innocent people in order to improve their statistics?
We have a couple of 'poor souls' in our area right now, unfortunately. I'm afraid your argument has no resonance with me, so I will agree to disagree with you, I just don't believe it and so I will get back on topic.

Sorry for being O/T, but if you like to read please pick up "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham. It's an excellent book about 1 of those 130 'poor souls.' It's the only non-fiction book Grisham has written and I highly recommend it.

 

[Bittiness39]

And, if it WAS an accident, KC is refusing to cop to it. She is insisting on the SODDI thing.

So far, KC is the prosecution's star witness. Between her refusal to face facts and her attorney's mistakes...

ITA...if the state has to prove their case...then imo the defense should not be allowed to present anything other than facts in support of their theory should they be so dumb as to attempt one...nor should they be able to lie...sure they have a right to poke holes in the evidence. But this SODDI stuff is ridiculous. IF the state has to follow certain rules than the defense should not be allowed to suggest a phantom did it without proving said phantom exists.

JB better hit the pavement then. ZFG is a world traveler...wealthy and hot apparently. She could be all the way to the space station near the moon by now. Or you know...a performer at Sea World. Or just chilling at her empty apartment...she travels light. :waitasec:

 

[Jolynna]

I would imagine though amoung the many differences in this case from the others...is that neither was driving around in a car reaking of dead toddler. Blaming a phantom nanny.

But you are correct in the sense that I have seen nothing that can show YET (and I stress the YET because I believe that the dark lass that is KC will be found guilty and rightfully so) that it was an accidental car death/death by trunk/death by drugging and car...NOR a deliberate attempt to kill her. That is where the reasonable doubt lies. The state is charged with proving that the defendent killed her with premeditation and obvious neglect. The defense only has to present reasonable doubt.

I know that most think we have seen all we are going to see that suggests premeditation...ect...that there are no smoking guns. Nothing that will make that link stick. I am betting my almost paid for car that there is. Call it a hunch. JMO.

In Florida you don't need to show premeditation. Killing someone in the commission of another crime is First Degree Murder. Plus the victim is under 12. The state says KC killed Caylee AND committed aggravated child abuse.

KC's lawyers can't offer that KC taped over Caylee's face "after death" as a hypothesis. The Florida Supreme Court has determined that putting duct tape over a dead person's mouth and nose is not a reasonable or logical hypothesis (Brent Hicks vs State 'Florida').

 

[Curious Me]

JMHO, the only reasonable doubt jurors will have is how could the mother of a murdered child behave in such a guilty manner and lie so poorly.

After reading many pages of this thread, I realized the tape keeping the jaw so in place all those decomp months was put on with a determination to close that mouth forever. I always wondered if Caylee had told Cindy something she should've have because then Mommy got real mad.

 

[sleutherontheside]

In Florida you don't need to show premeditation. Killing someone in the commission of another crime is First Degree Murder. Plus the victim is under 12. The state says KC killed Caylee AND committed aggravated child abuse.

KC's lawyers can't offer that KC taped over Caylee's face "after death" as a hypothesis. The Florida Supreme Court has determined that putting duct tape over a dead person's mouth and nose is not a reasonable or logical hypothesis (Brent Hicks vs State 'Florida').

Here is a link to the case cited above.
http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions2/5D03-1906.op.html

 

[songline]

Hi everybody, I have been reading for a while, and getting wrapped up with the Jaycee Lee Dugard Case.
But I never forget about Caylee, In the question link I had said I would be eager to find DNA report about the maggots / flies.

I have read in some reports that they could have been 2 or even 3rd generational flies which would not carry the DNA and so I Very eagerly wait, reading, looking for some way to link KC directly to Caylees demise.
I have never forgotten Caylee....I just disappear for a time just peeking in here.
Since I took a brake from posting on this forum, sadly I am not sure we are much closer to say we are ready for court

 

[ZsaZsa]

Sorry for being O/T, but if you like to read please pick up "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham. It's an excellent book about 1 of those 130 'poor souls.' It's the only non-fiction book Grisham has written and I highly recommend it.

Thankyou, I like John Grisham, so I will put that on my list, but at the moment I am reading about a real life living color 'poor soul' whose murderer got off virtually scot free. He admitted( well, bragged) to the murder after he was acquitted by a conscientious Jury, mainly because they could not see the evidence that would have convicted him. His rights were more important than the girl he murdered, as is so often the case.
He finally got convicted for Perjury but that is small consolation to his victim's family.

 

[Wudge]

Here is a link to the case cited above.
http://www.romingerlegal.com/floridacourts/court_opinions2/5D03-1906.op.html

Was Misty Morse bound?

(Yes.)

 

[Jolynna]

Was Misty Morse bound?

(Yes.)

It doesn't matter.

The Supreme court determination was: "The only reasonable reason to tape over another human's mouth is to keep the woman from screaming or breathing"

Caylee didn't HAVE to be bound for those goals to be achieved. The fact of the binding wasn't part of the court's argument either. The court's argument (and determination) was only that the hypothesis overr taping over a human mouth after death isn't logical or reasonable.

(Seems to me, IF you were faking a kidnapping you'd bind so it would look like a kidnapping. It looks like KC just did what was necessary for what she wanted to accomplish.)

But, the bottom line of my point is, Casey's defenders can't use taping over Caylee's face after death as a possible hypothesis BECAUSE the Florida Supreme Courts have determined such a hypothesis to be unreasonable (binding or no binding).

jmo

 

[Wudge]

It doesn't matter.

SNIP

But, the bottom line of my point is, Casey's defenders can't use taping over Caylee's face after death as a possible hypothesis BECAUSE the Florida Supreme Courts have determined such a hypothesis to be unreasonable (binding or no binding).

jmo

Ah yes, the facts of a case doesn't matter doctrine.


(Fifty plus years and I never encountered this doctrine. Oh woe. ... chuckle )

 

[Brini]

Ah yes, the facts of a case doesn't matter doctrine.


(Fifty plus years and I never encountered this doctrine. Oh woe. ... chuckle )

Not a good idea to commit felonies where one doesn't know the law of the land, I guess.

 

[Jolynna]

Ah yes, the facts of a case doesn't matter doctrine.


(Fifty plus years and I never encountered this doctrine. Oh woe. ... chuckle )

Caylee was two.

It isn't necessary to bind hands to use tape to make a two-year-old cease screaming and breathing. It might even be a time-consuming hardship for KC to bind little, struggling, fighting wriggling hands. The process would give Caylee more time to scream.

The EASIEST thing for KC would be to sit on Caylee with Caylee face up and Caylee's arms under her legs. Most women's legs are stronger than their arms. Using her legs would give KC would give KC the most control and her arms and hands would be free to tape. Grabbing and holding a fighting two-year-old's hand would be harder and give Caylee all that much more time to scream. I think KC wanted the tape over Caylee's mouth as quickly as possible so she's be quiet. After Caylee was gone, there would be NO reason to bind. And KC didn't.

Now...back to my point...

No, I don't see that bound-hands are relevant to the determination the court made in Huck vs State. The court's determination was that taping over a dead person's mouth isn't a reasonable hypothesis (as opposed to a statement of facts which have to be whatever they are). The hand-binding after death part of Huck's hypothesis, was only indirectly addressed by the court because there obviously wouldn't be a reason to bind a dead human's hands for the same kind of reasons you wouldn't tape over a dead mouth. The hand-binding was NOT given as a reason why Huck's hypothesis that panic over the woman's death scenario & staging was unreasonable.



jmo

 

[ZsaZsa]

You can swaddle a toddler in a blanket very rapidly to stop them flailing about.
Specially if they are sleeping or sedated while you need to do it. Once they wake to realize what is happening they cannot move. I am sure CA knows how to do that, as Nurse. KC may even have seen her do it to give meds etc.....

 

[lin]

You can swaddle a toddler in a blanket very rapidly to stop them flailing about.
Specially if they are sleeping or sedated while you need to do it. Once they wake to realize what is happening they cannot move. I am sure CA knows how to do that, as Nurse. KC may even have seen her do it to give meds etc.....

This may seem a bit o/t but please bear with me:

A million years ago when my oldest was just about a year old, (boy won't she be annoyed if she reads I just told everyone she's a 1,000,001 years old), we took her to the beach. As we played with her in the shallows, a small wave or more like incoming tide, or maybe her own inexpert feet caused her to fall into the water and it just covered her. She didn't know to get back up out of the water on her own.

The point I'm trying to make is that at Caylee's age at the time of her cruel murder, she may not have had a concept or understood that her mouth and nose were taped. She may have only to be able to reason far enough that she couldn't breathe, kwim?

Further, as has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread, that was industrial strength duct tape. Caylee may not have been able to remove it even if she understood what was causing her to be unable to breathe. She may not have been physically strong enough or had the fine motor skills necessary. She was only a baby; two years old.

Finally, at this point I have seen no proof that Caylee was bound. But I have also seen no proof that she was not bound. What I have seen is there was a matching extraneous piece of duct tape found at the scene. Jurors will be able to make inferences and may choose to infer that extra matching piece of duct tape was used to bind Caylee. Or they may choose not to draw such an inference. My point here is that they are allowed to do so, either way.

ETA: Forgot to tie this in with premeditation -- I believe that Jolynna's suggestions regarding the coffin flies are likely to be proven. Even if not, I believe that Caylee's death was premeditated based on the duct tape over her mouth and nose and I also believe that Caylee was alive when initially placed into the trunk. Had KC's intent been to keep Caylee quiet in the trunk in lieu of a sitter, there would have been no need for taping her nose too. Had her intent been other than murder of Caylee, industrial strength duct tape placed even into the baby's hair would not have been present. Had her intent been to stage a kidnapping, a kidnapping would have been reported prior to a month later. And so on and so on. Guess I should just write "ditto" what all the smart sleuths wrote on this topic.

As always, JMO