Premeditation

[ThoughtElf]

Got it. Thanks for the walk-through.

I still do not share that opinion, but I do understand that you are posing it as a possible plausible scenario.

IF, I was a juror who put some consideration into that possibility, I would still struggle mightily with the gross indignity done to Caylee's body after death, and I would still have real issue with an accidental swimming death not being reported. While perhaps not guilty of murder, I would still be voting 'guilty' on some count or another, most likely negligent child abuse.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Bottom line is that no one knows if that tape was put on Caylee before or after she died. If LE know or have evidence to support a theory either way they haven't released it yet. So all else is speculation and conjecture. No one here can definitively state when the duct tape was put on Caylee.

The medical examiner's autopsy report states "This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition."

 

[Jolynna]

The problem prosecutors have with "imagine" is that it is not evidence.

The duct tape wasn't imagined.

There is no reason to put 3 pieces of industrial strength duct tape over another human being's mouth and nose except to take that person's life.

 

[wonders]

You asked for a scenario, and I gave you leaking swimming pool water.

The scenario has Caylee dead from drowning and swimming pool water leaking out of her mouth, so a piece of duct tape was used to stop the flow. However, it continued to leak from around the edges of the duct tape, so more tape was used until the leaking stopped.

Sorry Wudge I will never buy any fluids leaking.

 

[Wudge]

The medical examiner's autopsy report states "This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition."

Correct. It does not say prior to death.

 

[darnudes]

The medical examiner's autopsy report states "This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition."

Sure but she does not state if Caylee was alive or dead at the time the duct tape was placed on her. I don't want to be obnoxious, but I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding this.

I can easily think of a couple of scenarios whereby Casey could have put duct tape on Caylee after the fact for a specific reason.

 

[Brini]

Don't expect the judge to allow prosecutors to demonstrate your suspicion in the courtroom on a little girl -- thus still suspicion only.

Doesn't take a demonstration of a live little girl to draw a picure for the jury.

The jury knows the effects of airway occlusion.

JB, et al will have to come up with a reason for taping Caylee's facial orifaces closed that will make sense to a jury.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Applying three pieces of tape instead instead of one very well thought out piece of tape (which would have been wrapped around the entire head) strongly suggests a serendipitous application.

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way. In a murder where tape was going to be used to sufficate someone, a planned approach would be to ensure the victim could not use their hands to pull the tape away.

We don't know if Caylee's hands were taped together or tied because by the time her body was found there were just seperate bones scattered over a large area of woods. Her hands could have been tied with rope or tied together with duct tape and the animals that scattered her little bones could have chewed through the tape or rope, etc and it could have been long gone by the time her body was discovered. It was a freak accident that the tape was still on her head. Thank God.

 

[Brini]

Sure but she does not state if Caylee was alive or dead at the time the duct tape was placed on her. I don't want to be obnoxious, but I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding this.

I can easily think of a couple of scenarios whereby Casey could have put duct tape on Caylee after the fact for a specific reason.

Like what?

The swimming pool scenario would require conjecture. And, there is no evidence for a swimming pool accident.

Now, I don't know whether Caylee was alive or dead, when the tape was applied. But, neither can I come up with an acceptable reason for taping Caylee's face that does not require conjecture.

 

[wonders]

Sure but she does not state if Caylee was alive or dead at the time the duct tape was placed on her. I don't want to be obnoxious, but I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding this.

I can easily think of a couple of scenarios whereby Casey could have put duct tape on Caylee after the fact for a specific reason.

BBM
Please share other then fluids leaking.

 

[darnudes]

The duct tape wasn't imagined.

There is no reason to put 3 pieces of industrial strength duct tape over another human being's mouth and nose except to take that person's life.

I just go over all the facts that we do know about Casey. From day one she has tried to blame the imaginary nanny. I belive she had been working on her kidnap story the day she killed Caylee or Caylee died in an accident due to some inattention on behalf of Casey. It is no stretch for me to think she was trying to stage this by adding the duct tape to further her kidnapping story.

I think there are many possible scenarios and I am open to all of them.

 

[CentralFLMama]

Do remember too that Caylee's hands were not tied or taped together behind her back. Nor were her hands tied or taped to her waist. The fact is that her hands were not tied or taped together in any way. In a murder where tape was going to be used to sufficate someone, a planned approach would be to ensure the victim could not use their hands to pull the tape away.

All she had to do was kneel astride Caylee while she was laying down and Caylee would be completely helpless and unable to get her arms up to her face to take the tape off. Even Casey could have figured that one out. You dont need an assistant or handcuffs or taped hands to hold down a 2 year old.

 

[JBean]

We don't have cause of death. There was no soft tissue left to examine. Suffocation is assessed by changes in the eyes, skin, and respiratory systems. None of that was present.

We DO know what effect occluding the airways with duct tape has.

We know that she died at her mother's hands.

And, we know that the defense is going to have to convince the jury that there was some benign reason for taping up the baby's face.

So far the defense is still making SODDI noises. They do not seem to be discussing swimming pool accidents.

JellyBean, How can duct taping of all the airways (nose and mouth) NOT kill? All of Caylee's airways were occluded.

What I mean is, if the duct tape was applied in such a way as to cause death and if what you say is true, that there is no way that it could not have caused her death, then why didn't the ME rule that as the cause of death?

 

[Imbackon]

The problem prosecutors have with "imagine" is that it is not evidence.

Wudge, I'm sorry, but what is the difference between you imagining that one must bind someone's hands in order to put duct tape across their mouth, and someone else's "imagining" that she could have straddled or drugged Caylee in order to apply the duct tape.

Imagine is just another way of saying deducing (To reach (a conclusion) by reasoning) which is perfectly acceptable and necessary.

The duct tape itself is evidence, but without reasoning, EVIDENCE MEANS NOTHING. Even if you had the murder on videotape, you still need to use some form of deductive reasoning to come to the conclusion that what you viewed, was in fact the act of murdering someone.

Without deductive reasoning we are nothing more than bricks.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Sure but she does not state if Caylee was alive or dead at the time the duct tape was placed on her. I don't want to be obnoxious, but I don't know why people are having a hard time understanding this.

I can easily think of a couple of scenarios whereby Casey could have put duct tape on Caylee after the fact for a specific reason.

Right, but as other posts have made clear scenarios, imagination, conjecture and suspicion have no place in the courtroom.

The ME states it was applied before decomposition and doesn't decomposition start immediately?

 

[Brini]

Got it. Thanks for the walk-through.

I still do not share that opinion, but I do understand that you are posing it as a possible plausible scenario.

IF, I was a juror who put some consideration into that possibility, I would still struggle mightily with the gross indignity done to Caylee's body after death, and I would still have real issue with an accidental swimming death not being reported. While perhaps not guilty of murder, I would still be voting 'guilty' on some count or another, most likely negligent child abuse.

Then there is the problem of no call to 911, for expert help with resuscitation.

 

[mistressammie]

Wanted to throw my 2 cents in - I don't think it matters HOW MANY pieces of duct tape were used...just that duct tape was used period. This clearly shows that the murder did not happen out of a moment of rage - if the tape was placed prior to Caylee's death. If the murderer had the clarity of mind to grab the duct tape so that no one would be able to hear Caylee, they weren't so far over the edge that they would lose themselves and commit a murder in that split second of losing control.

To me, the fact that the duct tape was on her at all means that the murder was premeditated.

Also, (and I really even hate to think this way) but I don't believe the duct tape was used to stop fluids from leaking out after the death because...it is my belief that fluids can exit all orifices of the body after death.

I'm also on the fence about the drug or sedative issue. If Caylee was given drugs or a sedative, why would the duct tape have been needed? It wouldn't have been to keep her from crying out and betraying the murderer...the only need I can think of would be to finish the job that the drugs or sedatives started.

I believe 100% that the murder was premeditated and think the jury will see this as well. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Caylee was such a sweet and beautiful girl. I am sicker than sick for what she might have gone through. There is nothing more horrible than harming a beautiful child...one who trusted the adults in her life to keep her safe. Thinking of Caylee makes me hug my own children more tightly and really realize just how precious they are to me and how grateful I am to have them.

 

[Just Jayla]

There's no evidence that the duct tape was the cause of death or is related to the cause of death. Moreover, three pieces of duct tape is not suggestive of planning and deliberation. Rather, the three pieces of duct tape work against the notion that Caylee died from a premeditated murder, for they suggest a haphazard application.

No one, anywhere, has ever been able to cite clear and unyielding proof that supports the State's 1st degree murder charge. As such, Casey should be found "not guilty".

MOO, but I do not think our justice system neccesarily calls for unyielding proof, rather that the existing proof be presented to create a scenario beyond a reasonable doubt. The proof that the state is holding, in their assessment, shows homicide in the commission of child abuse, which can carry the death penalty under Federal law.

I think the jury system allows for people to apply their intellect to the facts presented and fill in certain blanks. Even if they were instructed not to, it's how humans think.
For instance, gone 31 days and doesn't tell anyone, death smell in car, searched for chloroform on PC and traces in the trunk and duct tape on the face (aggravated child abuse)-And KC was the only one in possession of Caylee, aside from a nanny that does not exist. The jury will debate how to fill in the blanks and will go one way or the other based on the peices of the puzzle that they can assemble in deliberation.

 

[Brini]

What I mean is, if the duct tape was applied in such a way as to cause death and if what you say is true, that there is no way that it could not have caused her death, then why didn't the ME rule that as the cause of death?

Because there are no soft tissues. The ME goes by pathological changes in the soft tissues.

Neither we nor the ME know when Caylee's face was taped.

The defense is going to have to give the jury an explanation that the jury will accept.

Maybe they can. My guess is that they can't.

Taping up one's accidentally killed child's airways is pretty unheard of. (sorry re: ending w/ a preposition).

 

[Bobbisangel]

A heart sticker does not suggest a sinister intention. It suggests the opposite.

Wudge, I think you just get a kick out of having an opposite opinion...right?
You say Casey will be found innocent....with all of the evidence and everything else involved in this case there is just no way a person with any common sense could possibly believe that. I do believe that you have common sense...don't you...lol? Come on...fess up.