Premeditation

[cecybeans]

I don't disagree that premeditation shouldn't be argued, and most likely my example was a bad one. Premed Murder can perhaps be charged for being that negligent even without intent.
But what I am only saying is that the tape is not sufficient for me to form an opinion on premeditation at this time.
There may be other factors that point to it though.

as an aside, felony murder is not the same thing as Murder 1 I do not believe.

You are right. And I think that is the $64,000 question. Exactly what led the SA to charge Murder One. I am hoping it is something more than behavioral. Although that has certainly sufficed in other trials.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Yeah. The release of the videotapes inside the jail (Sunshine law) really helped Casey's defense team.

Do you think KC is being singled out and tried unfairly regardless of U.S. laws?

 

[cecybeans]

Good night all! I am now going to perform a premeditated Diet Crime and make myself hot chocolate. Somebody mentioned the "S" word (snow) as a possibility this weekend. Sigh. The leaves haven't even all turned yet. What is wrong with this picture??

 

[darnudes]

Most states also have a felony murder statute. Under the felony murder doctrine, a person who attempts or commits a specified felony may be held responsible for a death caused by an accomplice in the commission of the felony; an attempt to commit the felony; or flight from the felony or attempted felony. For example, if two persons rob a bank and during the Robbery one of them shoots and kills a security guard, the perpetrator who did not pull the trigger nevertheless may be charged with murder.

Most states divide the crime of murder into first and second degrees. In such states, any intentional, unlawful killing done without justification or excuse is considered second-degree murder. The offense usually is punished with a long prison term or a prison term for life without the possibility of parole. Second-degree murder can be upgraded to first-degree murder, a more serious offense than second-degree murder, if the murder was accomplished with an aggravating or special circumstance. An aggravating or special circumstance is something that makes the crime especially heinous or somehow worthy of extra punishment

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Murder

 

[JBean]

Right, it is the LAW. They are not doing media blitzes blah blahing about the case. JB and the A's are doing their best to poison the jury pool, no doubt about it. It's not the SA's fault if the evidence they have to release by law is damaging to her case. Maybe she should've thought about that on June 14, 2008 . . . .

Not to get too far afield, but doesn't the SA have a bit of control as to what is released by way of the Sunshine laws? IIRC, information isn't subject to the Sunshine Laws until it is put into discovery and does the SA decide when that happens to a certain extent?

 

[JBean]

Most states also have a felony murder statute. Under the felony murder doctrine, a person who attempts or commits a specified felony may be held responsible for a death caused by an accomplice in the commission of the felony; an attempt to commit the felony; or flight from the felony or attempted felony. For example, if two persons rob a bank and during the Robbery one of them shoots and kills a security guard, the perpetrator who did not pull the trigger nevertheless may be charged with murder.

Most states divide the crime of murder into first and second degrees. In such states, any intentional, unlawful killing done without justification or excuse is considered second-degree murder. The offense usually is punished with a long prison term or a prison term for life without the possibility of parole. Second-degree murder can be upgraded to first-degree murder, a more serious offense than second-degree murder, if the murder was accomplished with an aggravating or special circumstance. An aggravating or special circumstance is something that makes the crime especially heinous or somehow worthy of extra punishment

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Murder

She has not been charged with felony murder at this time. Now that can change or perhaps the jury can vote on that also. But she has been charged with Murder 1 and that is the question for the thread. Is that the right charge? was there premeditation?

 

[ThoughtElf]

Good night all! I am now going to perform a premeditated Diet Crime and make myself hot chocolate. Somebody mentioned the "S" word (snow) as a possibility this weekend. Sigh. The leaves haven't even all turned yet. What is wrong with this picture??

Of course it will snow. It is the Canadian Thanksgiving long weekend. Sorry about that picture, but that is what every long weekend other than Canada Day (in July) looks like, eh? :angel:

 

[Wudge]

Do you think KC is being singled out and tried unfairly regardless of U.S. laws?

No. D.A.s across the country do it at every chance, and our culture accepts high-profile cases being tried in the media.

 

[darnudes]

No. D.A.s across the country do it at every chance, and our culture accepts high-profile cases being tried in the media.

Probably not so much the media but the court of public opinion and if you study Roman History people were tried in the court of public opinion there too.

 

[Jolynna]

I think you are right because I believe the prosecution when they say the pages released today are the last of the 10,439 of discovery they have received to date.

That doesn't mean they won't receive more reports from the FBI in the future that will eventually become discovery. After today's release it looks like we have seen all FBI's hair and fiber reports, but we haven't seen much on DNA testing yet.

Wednesday the defense got 42 pages of discovery from the entomologist.

The report hasn't been released to the public. The defense has specifically been asking to hear from this guy for months which got my attention. Plus...the entomologist is from my neck of the woods too and is a super-star in the field of bugs and murder.

 

[cecybeans]

Not to get too far afield, but doesn't the SA have a bit of control as to what is released by way of the Sunshine laws? IIRC, information isn't subject to the Sunshine Laws until it is put into discovery and does the SA decide when that happens to a certain extent?

Oh, I'd love to see a thread on this. I've gotten so many different explanations of how it works. From what I've heard, the SA releases all discovery (that they are finished investigating) to the defense, who gets a head start (15 to 30 days - I've heard both) before it is available, under Sunshine Law, to the media. However, I believe that the defense can withhold discovery (pending their own investigation) if they so wish for as long as they like before trial. Also, the media is also not required to release their copies of it all at once to the public if the desire.

If that's the way it works (and I hope some Floridian will help clear this up if I've misunderstood), then it would appear there could be three points of restriction: first the SA, then the defense and then the media. Since the SA has turned over 10K+ pages, I'm assuming that the reason we do not have them all (barring docs from FBI which are not on that timetable) is that a) the defense is holding some back pending investigation or the media is releasing things over time (which I doubt they are likely to do since they would be competing with private citizens who could also petition access to the material and publish them on websites). TIA to anyone who can give us the scoop!

 

[darnudes]

She has not been charged with felony murder at this time. Now that can change or perhaps the jury can vote on that also. But she has been charged with Murder 1 and that is the question for the thread. Is that the right charge? was there premeditation?

Sorry JBean, didn't mean to confuse. I understand she is charged with Murder 1 and I would have to say I think they have it right. I'm guessing the totality of the evidence and perhaps yet to be seen evidence pushes this case into the Murder 1 sphere and rightly so.

 

[cecybeans]

Of course it will snow. It is the Canadian Thanksgiving long weekend. Sorry about that picture, but that is what every long weekend other than Canada Day (in July) looks like, eh? :angel:

Happy Holidays to the Great White North!

 

[Dear Prudence]

She has not been charged with felony murder at this time. Now that can change or perhaps the jury can vote on that also. But she has been charged with Murder 1 and that is the question for the thread. Is that the right charge? was there premeditation?

This is where I get very confused. What exactly is she charged and what points do the prosecution have to prove to get a conviction? Wasn't there a thread on this very subject before? I would love to read it so if anyone could help me find it, I would be grateful.

 

[cecybeans]

Typically, premediation equates to planning and deliberation (consideration). Add intent (willful) and malice aforethought (depraved mind), and you have the definition of 1st degree murder that most states use (not necessarily Florida).

Maybe it's just me, but I find this case dripping with consideration and malicious intent - neatly summarized from the mouth of the defendant herself "Maybe I'm just a spiteful little b**ch!"

 

[Moe]

No. D.A.s across the country do it at every chance, and our culture accepts high-profile cases being tried in the media.

Just asking no disrespect, is anyone ever guilty?

 

[ThoughtElf]

This is where I get very confused. What exactly is she charged and what points do the prosecution have to prove to get a conviction? Wasn't there a thread on this very subject before? I would love to read it so if anyone could help me find it, I would be grateful.

I'll dig up the exact charges again for you, but there is excellent information and discussion in each of these favourite threads that you might like to read when you have time:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87042"]Reasonable doubt-Jury instructions and More #2 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76250"]"G (Guilty)" vs "NG (Not Guilty)" Where do you stand? - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75687"]Procedure and legal questions - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


HTH - back with the list of charges shortly.

 

[Mystic]

Yes, sorry - that wasn't directed at you Bean. I was thinking out loud that I don't need necessarily to know COD in order to consider premeditation. I was hoping to float some discussion about the definition of premeditation - I think.

On that note, I just dug this up as a reminder of the FL laws:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
The question of premeditation is a question of fact to be determined by you from the evidence. It will be sufficient proof of premeditation if the circumstances of the killing and the conduct of the accused convince you beyond a reasonable doubt of the existence of premeditation at the time of the killing. If a person has a premeditated design to kill one person and in attempting to kill that person actually kills another person, the killing is premeditated.

snipped Themis quote
BBM

Thanks for bringing this post up. The sufficient proof... 'conduct of the accused'. KC's conduct after the fact is 'not' much different then SP's was. She kept Caylee 'alive & well' in everyone's mind. She has a date with Tony and is leaving the child with a non-existent nanny?? All her actions (and there are many) after the fact are going to weigh pretty heavy that she planned to remove this heavy bolder from her life. Caylee was just a novelty which had worn out its time. She felt burdened with it and CA attempting to make her responsible. She wanted out of it and she didn't want CA to have Caylee. Caylee was just a possession that was getting in the way of her having a bella vita. It won't be just the duct tape but based on everything else; the time the duct tape was placed will certainly appear as prior to death. (as in what killed her)

hopefully my snipps and quotes worked out well

 

[JBean]

This is where I get very confused. What exactly is she charged and what points do the prosecution have to prove to get a conviction? Wasn't there a thread on this very subject before? I would love to read it so if anyone could help me find it, I would be grateful.

This is why I was saying there are lots of threads on this!

 

[Wudge]

Just asking no disrespect, is anyone ever guilty?

Some high-profile cases produce a proper conviction. However, my experience has been that high-profile cases more often result in wrongful convictions or celebrity justice wrongful acquittals or extensively demonize some poor soul or souls in the media without there ever being an indictment. Similarly,this case could well result in a conviction when the evidence does not support the charge.