Prior Vaginal Trauma

[Holdontoyourhat]

Source on the black fibers? I dont remember that on the autopsy report.

 

[DeeDee249]

True, and the coroner did not mention the injuries were from rigorous surface rub, but from something being inserted into the vagina, eroding the surface of the hymen. Big difference. Now if you want to surmise that the outer labia lips were inflamed due to Jon Benet rigorously rubbing, I could easily buy that theory.

Actually, there was no mention of any irritation or inflammation on the outside of her pubic area, so it doesn't appear she (or anyone else) was rubbing the area. If I recall, there was one small bruise on the outer labia. I'll have to go back and re-read the autopsy report on that section.

 

[DeeDee249]

Now if you want to surmise that the outer labia lips were inflamed due to Jon Benet rigorously rubbing, I could easily buy that theory.

But as we know, there was no mention of any such findings in the autopsy.

 

[Tadpole12]

Exactly, indeed you may believe the earth is flat if you choose, it's of no consequence to me.

Coroner Meyer stated the digital penetration and sexual contact had taken place. So, just run with me for a moment if you will?

There being no evidence a stick was used to penetrate her, we are now left with digital penetration.

I'll assert that the digit in question was gloved and it left the black fibers on her genitals noted in the autopsy and was also inserted in her vagina, causing the injury which resulted in bruising and a small amount of bleeding also noted in the autopsy.

Now, did the Rs put on gloves and do this? If so, where are these gloves? Why would they have used gloves? Remember the question in one of the interviews as to whether they had gardening gloves or not?

If the answer to these questions does not satisify, then I suggest that the digital penetration/sexual contact was instead performed by the IDI, a person who had reason to wear gloves, and also took the gloves away with him.

Do you understand now why it is critical to get all this evidence correct??

Heyya MF.

I've wondered about that as well, in trying to shuffle around what is or is not an untruth or tabloid myth or purposeful misdirection.

Where and at what point of time did the paint prush as assault weapon originate.
When did the cellulose as birefringent material become a definte.

I had been also thinking about perp profiles, if Ramseys typologies of the perp would still include an IDI within the inner circle, ie JR's inside job comment. PR's comments about not believing they could know anybody that evil.

At the time, without the touch dna, it was a known IDI type that could account for all the personal touches that the Ramseys would have needed to stage.

 

[Tadpole12]

Also, information about the paintbrush being used in the construction of the garotte first appeared in Sept 1997.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60F1FFE3A540C758CDDA00894DF494D81

Bit of JonBenet Evidence Is Linked to Mother

Published: September 6, 1997




BOULDER, Colo., Sept. 5— A broken piece of paintbrush found in Patricia Ramsey's art supplies matches the wooden section used to garrote her daughter, JonBenet Ramsey, two Denver newspapers reported today.

 

[Peepers]

I dont think John sexually abused Jonbonet. Not sure what happened to this poor child but I dont think it was John

 

[UKGuy]

Exactly, indeed you may believe the earth is flat if you choose, it's of no consequence to me.

Coroner Meyer stated the digital penetration and sexual contact had taken place. So, just run with me for a moment if you will?

There being no evidence a stick was used to penetrate her, we are now left with digital penetration.

I'll assert that the digit in question was gloved and it left the black fibers on her genitals noted in the autopsy and was also inserted in her vagina, causing the injury which resulted in bruising and a small amount of bleeding also noted in the autopsy.

Now, did the Rs put on gloves and do this? If so, where are these gloves? Why would they have used gloves? Remember the question in one of the interviews as to whether they had gardening gloves or not?

If the answer to these questions does not satisify, then I suggest that the digital penetration/sexual contact was instead performed by the IDI, a person who had reason to wear gloves, and also took the gloves away with him.

Do you understand now why it is critical to get all this evidence correct??

MurriFlower,

There being no evidence a stick was used to penetrate her, we are now left with digital penetration.

Not quite no evidence since we do not know what evidence has been sealed. Also Steve Thomas refers to a wooden splinter being found inside JonBenet, so along with the autopsy citing birefringement material its fair to assume this refers to cellulose.

I'll assert that the digit in question was gloved and it left the black fibers on her genitals noted in the autopsy and was also inserted in her vagina, causing the injury which resulted in bruising and a small amount of bleeding also noted in the autopsy.

The fibers on JonBenet's genital area were matched to John Ramsey's Israeli manufactured black shirt. It may be he owned a shirt and glove set, produced by the same manufacturer?

Now, did the Rs put on gloves and do this? If so, where are these gloves? Why would they have used gloves? Remember the question in one of the interviews as to whether they had gardening gloves or not?

Why would they need gloves. Remember the IDI theory is that the intruder removed his gloves so to undress JonBenet and molest her.

If the answer to these questions does not satisify, then I suggest that the digital penetration/sexual contact was instead performed by the IDI, a person who had reason to wear gloves, and also took the gloves away with him.

Maybe the same IDI took away JonBenet's size-6 underwear?

Do you understand now why it is critical to get all this evidence correct??

I agree, undocumented forensic evidence is of little value.


.

 

[UKGuy]

I dont think John sexually abused Jonbonet. Not sure what happened to this poor child but I dont think it was John

Peepers,
Someone in that house did though. There is zero evidence linking any intruder to the crime-scene.

This case is a sexually motivated homicide. Lou Smit famed investigator understood that, except he thought it was an intuder who was responsible.

.

 

[MurriFlower]

Peepers,
Someone in that house did though. There is zero evidence linking any intruder to the crime-scene.

This case is a sexually motivated homicide. Lou Smit famed investigator understood that, except he thought it was an intuder who was responsible.

.

I think it goes without saying that someone who was in the house that night murdered her (unless you believe she was removed, murdered and then returned).

You are then left to ponder if her loving parents, brother or some other extended family member was responsible or if it was a yet to be determined person(s).

You believe exactly what you want to believe. An unknown person is just that -- unknown. You obviously prefer to believe a family member murdered her, for reasons of your own. So be it.

Now, let us get on with finding the real murderer!!

 

[otg]

Also, information about the paintbrush being used in the construction of the garotte first appeared in Sept 1997.

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60F1FFE3A540C758CDDA00894DF494D81

Bit of JonBenet Evidence Is Linked to Mother

Published: September 6, 1997

From that article:
"JonBenet, 6, was strangled with a garrote -- :laugh:a cord tightened by twisting a stick, the coroner's report said."

:floorlaugh:​

(...and the misconception begins)
.

 

[joeskidbeck]

From that article:
"JonBenet, 6, was strangled with a garrote -- :laugh:a cord tightened by twisting a stick, the coroner's report said."

:floorlaugh:​

(...and the misconception begins)
.

Right, otg. The misconception within the media may have begun there, but think about it (I'm sure you already have), this supposed "garrote" was intended to make LE believe that's what it was. We know it wasn't, but obviously whoever devised it thought it was. Do you see what I mean? Do you believe this person was naive enough to believe that he had actually formed a garrote? I don't like where this thought is leading me. It makes me think that someone a lot younger than I had believed was behind this. Now, please tell me where that can't be right, so that I can quit thinking like this.

 

[Becky319]

Right, otg. The misconception within the media may have begun there, but think about it (I'm sure you already have), this supposed "garrote" was intended to make LE believe that's what it was. We know it wasn't, but obviously whoever devised it thought it was. Do you see what I mean? Do you believe this person was naive enough to believe that he had actually formed a garrote? I don't like where this thought is leading me. It makes me think that someone a lot younger than I had believed was behind this. Now, please tell me where that can't be right, so that I can quit thinking like this.

Or perhaps a female that is unfamilar with knots?

 

[SunnieRN]

Actually, there was no mention of any irritation or inflammation on the outside of her pubic area, so it doesn't appear she (or anyone else) was rubbing the area. If I recall, there was one small bruise on the outer labia. I'll have to go back and re-read the autopsy report on that section.

But as we know, there was no mention of any such findings in the autopsy.

After working all night, reading your posts, and sending you a pm, I slept for about 3 hours. The basis for my statements was that Chuck Maureen was discussing the chronic nature of JB vaginal issues. I stated that if she had 'vigorously rubbed' herself internally, the ME would have noted that on the autopsy report. It is my belief that there would also have been a multitude of scratches, as CM also stated she had beautifully manicured Pageant nails.

There were however NO scratches and evidence of digital insertion.

I do believe that since JON Benet had chronic infections, which are very uncomfortable, she could have AT TIMES rubbed her outer vaginal area, looking for relief.

Thank you for bringing the discussion back to the ME autopsey report, as I should have done the same and not added my speculation of possible past behaviors.

 

[madeleine]

Source on the black fibers? I dont remember that on the autopsy report.

dark not black

Det. Arndt stated to Your Affiant that she was present and observed a visual examination by Dr. Meyer of the shirt worn by the child. She observed and Dr. Meyer preserved dark fibers and dark hair found on the outside of the shirt

Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.
1997 January 30 thru February 5, 1997, at 12:10 P.M. - Search Warrant - Inventory of Property removed from 755 15th Street

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

 

[ChuckMaureen]

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5710789&postcount=66"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Dr. Wecht is interviewed regarding the Ramsey case.[/ame]

I think we all know that nobody will ever pay for this crime. Lin Wood will tear every piece of evidence to shreds no matter what it is or how it's presented. That's a given and that's why JonBenet's killer/killers still walk free today and always will. We are not the jury on this case and we all have our opinions on the molestation. That's all they are for the most part; opinions. After all, I don't think any of us believe one of the Ramseys (or anyone else for that matter) got up that day and decided to kill JonBenet.

I do believe that there are many experts that determined she was sexually abused before that night and they know much more about it than I do. Even if they didn't believe it, there is no way you will make me believe she wasn't molested based on the number of doctor visits alone. They weren't for colds and ear infections, they were for UTI's and vaginal infections and the numbers are ridiculus for a six year old girl. Spin it any way you want if it makes you feel better about this child's death, but I have enough intelliegence to form my own opinions based on real expert opinion.

Children typically have a minimum of antibodies and resistance arsenal due to their not having yet been exposed to the multitude of bacteria and viruses that surround us.

Additionally, the "normal bacteria flora of humans" http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html represents a delicate balancing act of [potential] pathogens that when unchecked, wreak havoc upon the host.

Considering JBR was a pageant girl and most likely would regularly be adorned with makeup, removal solvents, perfume, creams and quite possibly other girls clothing it is possible JBR's immune system and particular areas of her anatomy were prone to bacterial proliferation and infection.

Autopsy: Microscopic Examination of Vaginal Mucosa

// snipped //

• "Acute inflammatory infiltrate is not seen." (Infiltrate="An abnormal substance that accumulates gradually in cells or body tissues.")

My understanding of that point is there was no evidence of a gradual accumulation of infiltrate, as would be expected with recurrent invasive or irritant abuse.

As long as there is an alternate, logical possibility that could explain JBR's recurrent medical issues I do not believe one could conclude on-going sexual abuse as a given.

 

[MurriFlower]

dark not black

Det. Arndt stated to Your Affiant that she was present and observed a visual examination by Dr. Meyer of the shirt worn by the child. She observed and Dr. Meyer preserved dark fibers and dark hair found on the outside of the shirt

Det. Arndt told Your Affiant that she personally observed Dr. John Meyer examine the vaginal and pubic areas of the deceased, Dr. Meyer stated that he observed numerous traces of a dark fiber.
1997 January 30 thru February 5, 1997, at 12:10 P.M. - Search Warrant - Inventory of Property removed from 755 15th Street

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-thebody.htm

Thanks maddy, I was unable to find the exact quote that I was looking for which if I recall correctly was black fibers on her external genitals.

Apologies to all for saying it was in the autopsy report, obviously incorrect.

The other area I recall reading it was where JR was questioned in one interview about black fibers in her panties. This was taken by RDI to be from the black shirt he wore that night, thus implicating him in her molestation/murder.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

The ~ 8-inch-long skull fracture.

Dr. Wecht indicated minimal (assumed:internal) bleeding as related to that injury, which suggests it was inflicted post-mortem.

The injury offers no sense. JBR was not alive, why inflict such a blow?

Accident?

I do not expect the object to have been a golf club. The injury would have been more severe given the weight of a club head.

JR possibly might have dropped JBR as he was hurrying in transporting her out of the basement after he discovered her body in the WC.

The ME did not notice the fracture until after he began skin resection. This is why I think the minimal bleeding was internal.

The injury was not visually apparent. This suggests a direct with minimal to no lateral shift impact by a solid, possibly stationary object.

There also is a small section of skull at one end of the fracture that was forced inward from the blow, which suggests a protrusion along the object.

The fracture might have occurred upon impact with a wall, a step or a door. The protrusion could have been a spiggot, an object placed on a step or a door latch or strike plate.

Or there was no protrusion on the object .. perhaps a movement one way or another during impact was enough to cave that section of skull.

There was no external bleeding, hence minimal (hair, skin) or no evidence would appear on the solid / protrusion objects.

Perhaps a forcefully-opened WC door impacted JBR's head as she lie prone?

That suggests someone unfamiliar with the body placement opened the door .. or it was done purposefully by someone familiar with scene to cause death.

Surely, the strength of an adult is not required to swing a door quickly and forcefully enough to cause such an impact injury? (not likely, just making this point to be complete ... I do not believe the Rs would send BR to the neighbors if he was the perp / involved).

Why were JBR's hands tied 'above' her head, arms straightened?

What held them in that position?

Simply tying her wrists together above her head would not prevent her from moving her arms down unless they were tied to something heavy or stationary behind her head.

Was JR able to pick up JBR without detaching her from anything?

If so, who cut the ties, when and why?

Also, during the sexual abuse phase of the crime were JBR's pelvis and legs positioned flat on the ground or was she placed or propped in place that raised her vulva to a 'comfortably accessible' position?

The light purplish mark on her lower left labia majora was 1 inch long by 3/8 inch wide. Possibly the result of a pinch between the length of someones index and middle fingers, not the tips.

Were JBR's teeth brushed after she ate pineapple and before she was murdered?

Autopsy idicates JBR's anus was patent (open, unobstructed). Is that normal state, post-mortem?

Was there makeup on JBR's face? Lipstick?

What other evidence was found at the scene that has not yet been released to the public? Saliva? Vomit? Sweat stains?

 

[MurriFlower]

The ~ 8-inch-long skull fracture.

Dr. Wecht indicated minimal (assumed:internal) bleeding as related to that injury, which suggests it was inflicted post-mortem.

The injury offers no sense. JBR was not alive, why inflict such a blow?

Accident?

I do not expect the object to have been a golf club. The injury would have been more severe given the weight of a club head.

JR possibly might have dropped JBR as he was hurrying in transporting her out of the basement after he discovered her body in the WC.

The ME did not notice the fracture until after he began skin resection. This is why I think the minimal bleeding was internal.

The injury was not visually apparent. This suggests a direct with minimal to no lateral shift impact by a solid, possibly stationary object.

There also is a small section of skull at one end of the fracture that was forced inward from the blow, which suggests a protrusion along the object.

The fracture might have occurred upon impact with a wall, a step or a door. The protrusion could have been a spiggot, an object placed on a step or a door latch or strike plate.

Or there was no protrusion on the object .. perhaps a movement one way or another during impact was enough to cave that section of skull.

There was no external bleeding, hence minimal (hair, skin) or no evidence would appear on the solid / protrusion objects.

Perhaps a forcefully-opened WC door impacted JBR's head as she lie prone?

That suggests someone unfamiliar with the body placement opened the door .. or it was done purposefully by someone familiar with scene to cause death.

Surely, the strength of an adult is not required to swing a door quickly and forcefully enough to cause such an impact injury? (not likely, just making this point to be complete ... I do not believe the Rs would send BR to the neighbors if he was the perp / involved).

Why were JBR's hands tied 'above' her head, arms straightened?

What held them in that position?

Simply tying her wrists together above her head would not prevent her from moving her arms down unless they were tied to something heavy or stationary behind her head.

Was JR able to pick up JBR without detaching her from anything?

If so, who cut the ties, when and why?

Also, during the sexual abuse phase of the crime were JBR's pelvis and legs positioned flat on the ground or was she placed or propped in place that raised her vulva to a 'comfortably accessible' position?

The light purplish mark on her lower left labia majora was 1 inch long by 3/8 inch wide. Possibly the result of a pinch between the length of someones index and middle fingers, not the tips.

Were JBR's teeth brushed after she ate pineapple and before she was murdered?

Autopsy idicates JBR's anus was patent (open, unobstructed). Is that normal state, post-mortem?

Was there makeup on JBR's face? Lipstick?

What other evidence was found at the scene that has not yet been released to the public? Saliva? Vomit? Sweat stains?

Good to see you asking all these questions.

I have suggested the head bash was caused by the butt of a handgun, it's around the right size and shape and the hinged part of the broken skull is consistent with this type of object.

I believe she was held down with the muzzle of the same handgun, leaving a bruise on her neck, which can be clearly seen by changing the brightness and contrast of one of the pictures (see MurriFlower's album).

I also think her arms were not tied above her head, but in 'straightjacket style' around her, leaving the length between them around her back. Her arms were then pulled above her head later, when she was either lifted or dragged to the WC.

 

[cynic]

Thanks maddy, I was unable to find the exact quote that I was looking for which if I recall correctly was black fibers on her external genitals.

Apologies to all for saying it was in the autopsy report, obviously incorrect.

The other area I recall reading it was where JR was questioned in one interview about black fibers in her panties. This was taken by RDI to be from the black shirt he wore that night, thus implicating him in her molestation/murder.

Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is our belief based on forensic evidence that there are hairs that are associated, that the source is the collared black shirt that you sent us that are found in your daughter's underpants
John Ramsey Interview, August 29, 2000

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is our belief based on forensic evidence that there are hairs that are associated, that the source is the collared black shirt that you sent us that are found in your daughter's underpants
John Ramsey Interview, August 29, 2000

This is an invalid argument even if true because fibers on a surface aren't DNA or fingerprints. They can only be 'consistent with' fibers from an item of clothing.

I rather doubt its true anyway because interrogators can and frequently do lie in order to elicit testimony.