Procedure and legal questions

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But I hafta wonder -- what is taking so long?? Have we had to wait this long in the past for documents to be released to the public? Maybe I'm just hoping that the delay means there is something "good" in them after all.
 
I'm trying to understand the sunshine laws, and the sharing of discovery between the state and the defense.

I understand that there will be no perry mason moments in court, unless there is a question asked that is not in the depos.

So I'm wondering, when they go off the record in the depo, are they allowed to delve further into a topic and not have it on tape, and then use that info as a surprise in court?

I hope I've worded this right, and get my point across.
 
Along the lines of releasing discovery, I too was wondering if the defense can "throw away" incriminating evidence that they won't be using for trial.

Also, does the defense have to turn over depositions to the state? And if so, are those released under the sunshine law? And if so, how come none of Jose's depositions of witnesses have not been released?

Several have asked questions about the Florida "Sunshine Laws," criminal discovery procedures and civil discovery procedures. Okay. It appears there is some confusion here.

Sunshine Laws, also known as Public Records Acts, are a way a private citizen can access public records held by a governmental agency.

Right off the bat, we see that "Sunshine Laws" do not apply to information held by the criminal defense lawyers. Sunshine laws also do not apply to Mr. John Morgan's deposition records. Mr. John Morgan is representing ZG in the civil discovery. Mr. Morgan is releasing the depositions to the news as a courtesy with the consent of his client. Of course, by releasing them to the media, the records become available to the prosecution.

There is an exception to the sunshine laws in that some records held by governmental agencies are not public. They are specifically defined exclusions to the sunshine laws. The exclusions are defined by statute.

One of these exclusions is records held by a law enforcement agency during the course of the investigation and prior to disclosure either in a court hearing, trial or in pre-trial distribution to the defense attorneys.

The media in Orlando has been requesting public records from the State's Attorney Office. The SA office has been providing them to the media when they become public records; at or near the time the records are provided to defense counsel. However, it is not that the SA is unwilling to give it to media. The information people think they are missing might be expensive items to reproduce such as court transcriptions or transcriptions of deposition tapes. The media may not want to put out that kind of money for everything unless there is high public interest; which appears to be waning.

Criminal defense lawyers do not generally have an obligation to turn over incriminating evidence to the prosecution. However, deliberate destruction of evidence that exists independent of their representation of their client may not be deliberately destroyed. Such deliberate and willful destruction of evidence might violate obstruction of justice laws and be a criminal offense. Say, for example, the criminal defense knew where a gun that was used in a murder was. It is not in the possession of the defense. They don't have to tell the SA about it. However, if that gun comes into their possession, they do have to turn it over to the LE. They may not destroy the gun. Now for a different example. Their client, KC, tells them she murdered Caylee. That would be evidence and admissible as a statement of a party opponent. However, due to the attorney client privilege, the defense does not have to tell the SA about it. However, they cannot thereafter represent in court that she says she is innocent. (They can lie to the media all they want, apparently, if it doesn't violate a State Bar ethical rule.) A final example: The defense obtains a sample of body fluids and tests it for presence of chloroform. They find stunning proof that the deceased person was killed by an overdose of chloroform. They do not have to turn that evidence over to the SA. However, there is a mistake in the report prepared and it says exactly the opposite -- that there was no chloroform in the body fluids. They also cannot use the favorable but false report even if it is disclosed before trial.

Discovery laws and procedure are to assist both the state and the defense to have a fair trial. The idea is a search for the truth, if possible and resolution at some point through the trial system. Trial by ambush is discouraged and could get an attorney who tries that tactic sanctioned. Attorneys exchange all the information they are going to use about the case at trial before the trial. Prosecution has a special duty to give all exculpatory information to the defense even if the SA is not going to use it at trial. (If it is really good exculpatory information it will be carefully evaluated to determine whether or not they will even continue to go forward with the trial.) Defense does not have a duty to share anything (because the burden is on the prosecution to prove the case). That being said, however, there are certain "affirmative defenses" that require disclosure by defense before trial -- these include an alibi defense. There are others. Defense also needs to share their witness list and disclose the expert qualifications and a summary of what the expert witness will testify about.

If an attorney tries to surprise the other side so they can't prepare for it, the remedy is generally a delay until the other side can have the time to prepare to meet the evidence. This is difficult when a jury is in the box. The Judge presides over his or her courtroom and has to make the decision. If it is critical to the defense, the prosecution will be given time. If it is not critical but just voluminous repetition of the same thing in other evidence it might be excluded. The defense counsel might be punished or fined by the court. Needless to say, most good lawyers err on the side of sharing all information in a timely manner.

All of the above just discusses the hard evidence and witness opinions. In addition to this, most lawyers have briefs at the ready on various issues they believe will come up in trial. They research the law in their own state and several other comparable jurisdictions trying to find the majority view, the minority view and the trend in the law. Most lawyers share these ahead of time or the other counsel has seen then before and expects them. They might even discuss their various views in meetings before trial called case management conferences. A judge might even be present.

In addition to all of these duties of discovery and preparing witnesses, then the whole trial has to be orchestrated so that all the subpoenas are issued at the right time so witnesses know when to show up. It is like putting on a huge theater production and everybody has to know their part. No surprises. Neither side wants to look like a bumbling novice in front of the jury.

Someone asked about the timing of the "doc dumps." The media has to pay for the reproduction of the evidence at a cost per page plus transcription and for the staff time to do it. The labor cost is substantial. At this point, the media budget for this story is probably stretched.
 
I'm trying to understand the sunshine laws, and the sharing of discovery between the state and the defense.

I understand that there will be no perry mason moments in court, unless there is a question asked that is not in the depos.

So I'm wondering, when they go off the record in the depo, are they allowed to delve further into a topic and not have it on tape, and then use that info as a surprise in court?

I hope I've worded this right, and get my point across.

A deposition is just a pre-trial discovery method and is not generally a substitution for witness testimony unless the witness becomes unavailable at the time of trial (dies or leaves the jurisidiction and cannot be subpoenaed.) Very often, non-expert witnesses do testify a little differently at trial than they did at the depos. Memories fade or they aren't quite as accurate. Maybe the witness has had time to think and the second time they remember more detail or give a different twist on what they are describing. The attorney uses the depo to guard against having a witness fabricate the missing pieces; especially if they were so important they would have been mentioned the in the first deposition. It is important that the witness is testifying from memory and not from interpretation of facts, as this is called "opinion testimony." Only an expert can testify as to an ultimate opinion. If memory fading is the issue and they can't recall now, the attorney can ask, "Do you recall giving a deposition?" Answer, "Yes." Question, "If you looked at the depo, do you think that would refresh your memory?" Answer, "Yes." (Witness looks at the depo. The attorney has it open to the page.) Question, "Is your memory refreshed?" Answer, "Oh yes. I remember now." Then they proceed to answer the question from their memory -- not from the depo.

So, if they go off the record in the depo but it is recorded, it can still be used to refresh their memory, just like notes in a social worker or doctor's files or records. The difference is, if it is a prior SWORN statement, not off the record, then if their story changes, it can be used to impeach them. "Were you lying then or now?" "Do you understand you are now under oath?" "You knew you were under oath both at the depo and now; so at least one of those times you lied under oath; did you not?"

As I explained above, surprise tactics or "trial by ambush" as we call it, can get an attorney sanctioned with fines or exclusion of evidence (and the follow-up malpractice suit from their client.) So, that is where real practice differs from TV or movies -- surprise or trial by ambush is very bad in the real world. It is not a smart lawyer tactic and will get a lawyer into trouble. It is always much better for a client -- prosecution or defense -- to be fully prepared, know the facts as they exist in life, know the law, have the case reach and organized with witnesses and evidence and put on the case like a professional.
 
Oh gotcha, sorry.

My understanding of the Sunshine Law is that anything released to the defense is available to the media, private citizen, etc. IOW, when it's released to the defense, there are searchable public records created. I thought it worked the other way around as well, but maybe not. I'd like to know the answer to this myself.

Hopefully one of our lawyers will weigh in to confirm or refute this. :)
When the information is in the possession of the SA and still under investigation, then it is excluded from the sunshine laws. However, when the SA is going to make it available to the defense, then the exclusion is lifted and it becomes a public record -- disclosure makes it public vs. non-public government record. So, when the SA releases it to the public, then the sunshine laws that the media has made a standing request for release also operates on it and it is released to the media. Sunshine laws are not part of criminal defense discovery. They are separate and in addition and when the criminal records become public records, then they are also subject to release to the media. Defense records are not subject to sunshine laws because they are not public records -- until -- the defense gives them to law enforcement (and they are not under investigation) or to the SA. Then they can be released. Therefore, JB does not have any obligation to disclose his depositions. But if the SA is present at those depositions then they could be public records if the SA gets a copy of the recording or a transcript. Usually, both sides are available at a deposition -- otherwise it is just a pre-trial lawyer interview under oath and in the presence of a court reporter. A depo means both sides are present, but it could be in this case that the term "deposition" is being misapplied to JB's trial preparation interviews. Oh well. :rolleyes:
 
I'm thinking that JB really screwed up by not asking for a speedy trial. Most likely the trial would have occured prior to LE finding Caylee's body.

My question is, could this be a reason to file an incompetence of counsel in the future? I'm thinking not, but she wouldn't have been facing the death penalty and her defense might have had a better chance at acquittal or a lighter sentence since there was no body.

TIA
 
Today the SCOTUS overturned a 23 yr. old decision Michigan vs. Jackson, which found that the police must cease all questioning as soon as a suspect invoked their right to counsel. Does this decision now mean that LE can continue questioning after a suspect invokes their 5th amendment rights? I'm confused reading about it and trying to decipher the legal talk. Could someone please put what this could mean in layman's terms? Also, will it have any affect on Casey's case, like could LE now go talk to her even without her attorney present? TIA
 
Given the direction the hearing went in yesterday, does anyone else feel that if Andrea L stays on the case, she has a difficult hill to climb to get the SA to feel they can work without animosity towards them?

Can she overcome the damage JB created in the court hearings and well as the "briefings" he has previously filed? The LE and now the corrections dept and Orange Co attorney? Oh and Judge Strickland?
 
Given the direction the hearing went in yesterday, does anyone else feel that if Andrea L stays on the case, she has a difficult hill to climb to get the SA to feel they can work without animosity towards them?

Can she overcome the damage JB created in the court hearings and well as the "briefings" he has previously filed? The LE and now the corrections dept and Orange Co attorney? Oh and Judge Strickland?

I think the SA is probably very happy that KC has competent counsel now. They are professionals and what JB did should have no reflection on her. Now if she starts throwing her body on the floor and crying the SA might have a problem with that. LOL

Seriously, I think the SA will now get deep into the law with this one onboard.
 
Given the direction the hearing went in yesterday, does anyone else feel that if Andrea L stays on the case, she has a difficult hill to climb to get the SA to feel they can work without animosity towards them?

Can she overcome the damage JB created in the court hearings and well as the "briefings" he has previously filed? The LE and now the corrections dept and Orange Co attorney? Oh and Judge Strickland?


She has not been approved yet so it's difficult to say. I do not feel that Baez will take second fiddle to ANYONE. I think he thinks she is a woman so he can manipulate her. Baez is too involved with KC. He thinks, just like Cindy, that he knows best.
 
She has not been approved yet so it's difficult to say. I do not feel that Baez will take second fiddle to ANYONE. I think he thinks she is a woman so he can manipulate her. Baez is too involved with KC. He thinks, just like Cindy, that he knows best.

WOW, now this is one great observation ..... so there might be an internal defense battle as to go with the SODDI theory or she did it but her mother's style of parenting made her do it theory.

What happens should Andrea L step away from this case? What are the legal procedures in Florida on time constraints to retain a DP qualified attorney? Would the courts step in and force a time JB has to acquire one that will stay or what? Hope I am asking this the right way and not projecting what might or should happen.
 
WOW, now this is one great observation ..... so there might be an internal defense battle as to go with the SODDI theory or she did it but her mother's style of parenting made her do it theory.

What happens should Andrea L step away from this case? What are the legal procedures in Florida on time constraints to retain a DP qualified attorney? Would the courts step in and force a time JB has to acquire one that will stay or what? Hope I am asking this the right way and not projecting what might or should happen.

I would imagine that it would just delay the trial longer. At this rate, Casey will be gray by the time she is tried. There will be no speedy trial here. Look at everything Baez has done - all the scheduled hearings have to be rescheduled due to his inability to file a motion correctly. He is wasting valuable time with his courtroom antics. He should nost be a practicing attorney imo He's a joke, not an atty.
 
How come JB wont tone down and allow an attorney who has so much experience in DP cases run the show? Is it b/c he wants the exposure? Does he care what really happens to Casey? Wouldn't any attorney in a high profile case get a ton of exposure anyway? I thought he had to take second seat now that Andrea is the DP attorney on the case?

When they say Andrea hasn't lost a DP case does it mean all her clients walked or got life w/o parole? I am confused as to the article that reads she has tried 130 cases, then I read one that states she is 19 to 19.

Does JB have to sign something saying he will take responsibility for her legal ways?


Last thing, if Andrea actually can prove it shouldn't be a DP case, wouldn't she be off the team then?

Please and Thank You.. :blowkiss:
 
How come JB wont tone down and allow an attorney who has so much experience in DP cases run the show? Is it b/c he wants the exposure? Does he care what really happens to Casey? Wouldn't any attorney in a high profile case get a ton of exposure anyway? I thought he had to take second seat now that Andrea is the DP attorney on the case?

When they say Andrea hasn't lost a DP case does it mean all her clients walked or got life w/o parole? I am confused as to the article that reads she has tried 130 cases, then I read one that states she is 19 to 19.

Does JB have to sign something saying he will take responsibility for her legal ways?
I
Last thing, if Andrea actually can prove it shouldn't be a DP case, wouldn't she be off the team then?

Please and Thank You..:blowkiss:
can't see JB taking a back seat to ANYONE, His ego is much too inflated.

A defense atty considers a dp case a win if the dp isn't given. The sentence with dp off the table depends on the state. Some are LWOP, some are just life. Maybe she has tried 1230 cases and only 19 were DP. Either way, I don't consider LWOP a "win" in a DP case. The client is still guilty as if the dp were given. Either way, the defendents are in prison. Maybe I am being technical, but if I were a defense atty, I would not consider ANY guilty conviction a "win." But then defense attornies are a unique breed.

As for your last question, I have no clue. That would be a good question to ask of someone who is more well-versed in the Florida law than I am. If Lyon gets the death penalty tossed (and I don't think she will), could Baez get rid of her? There would be no point in her staying on the case WITHOUT the death penalty, and I don't see Baez sharing the limelight.
 
How come JB wont tone down and allow an attorney who has so much experience in DP cases run the show? Is it b/c he wants the exposure? Does he care what really happens to Casey? Wouldn't any attorney in a high profile case get a ton of exposure anyway? I thought he had to take second seat now that Andrea is the DP attorney on the case?

When they say Andrea hasn't lost a DP case does it mean all her clients walked or got life w/o parole? I am confused as to the article that reads she has tried 130 cases, then I read one that states she is 19 to 19.

Does JB have to sign something saying he will take responsibility for her legal ways?


Last thing, if Andrea actually can prove it shouldn't be a DP case, wouldn't she be off the team then?

Please and Thank You..:blowkiss:

it is my understanding that AL has been involved in the defense of 30 capital murder cases. of those 11 either resulted in aquital, conviction on lesser charges, or for whatever reason she did not proceed into a DP sentancing portion of the trial (she may not have been the lawyer for that portion). 19 of her clients were convicted of the capital murder charges that then proceeded to the DP sentancing phase of the trial. None of those 19 were sentanced to death by a jury.

So yes she has succesfully prevented 19 convicted murderers from being put to death. But her overall track record of aquital is at best 30% (this should be saying something to the A's.) None of those 19 will ever walk the streets again as free men.

And it is so unlikely for her to prove that it should not be a DP case at this point as to be almost outside the realms of reason. The SA originally took the DP off the table when the first DP attorney submitted some compelling arguments, key amongst them that the child could not be proven to be dead, absolutely (or what proof there was was finicky scientific evidence that a jury might have a problem with) and hat even if dead, they could not conclusively determine that the child did not die via natural or accidental means. trying to bring get a jury to sentance a "hot young white girl" is historically an exercise in prosecutorial futility and wasted resources unless there is something absolutely damning.

Then the body was found. It was clearly an unatural death and the body had been disposed of and treated in such a way that it was clear that a deliberate crime had occured (double bagging, duct tape, heart sticker, etc). The crime had clearly risen to the level of a capital offense. Now the SA was faced with the choice. Do they opt to not seek the DP simply because it is harder to get such a penalty for a "hot young white girl"? Is withholding the penalty because of the defendents age, race, sex and percieved beauty equal protection and treatment under the law?
 
I have to toss this in also. They keep claiming Casey is "innocent." The only way for Casey to be "innocent" is to find the real killer. Without that person, the best she can hope for is not guilty - which is NOT the same thing as innocent. Not guilty means that she was not PROVEN guilty, not that she in innocent.

Does anyone reallly believe OJ is innocent? Nope, he was NOT guilty. Different thing entirely in the legal sense.
 
I have to toss this in also. They keep claiming Casey is "innocent." The only way for Casey to be "innocent" is to find the real killer. Without that person, the best she can hope for is not guilty - which is NOT the same thing as innocent. Not guilty means that she was not PROVEN guilty, not that she in innocent.

Does anyone reallly believe OJ is innocent? Nope, he was NOT guilty. Different thing entirely in the legal sense.

This really confuses and frustrates me when ever they say KC is innocent! Do they really believe that? I just, in all good faith, don't think that they really should be able to say that! To say that "My Client is not guilty of this crime" I can see....

Saying that she is innocent puts a lot on their shoulders.
 
This really confuses and frustrates me when ever they say KC is innocent! Do they really believe that? I just, in all good faith, don't think that they really should be able to say that! To say that "My Client is not guilty of this crime" I can see....

Saying that she is innocent puts a lot on their shoulders.
And foolish imo. Can anyone forget Mark Garegos claiming that Scott Peterson was "stone cold innocent." Didn't work for him and he's a far more accomplished attorney in a more liberal state than Jose Baez.
 
This really confuses and frustrates me when ever they say KC is innocent! Do they really believe that? I just, in all good faith, don't think that they really should be able to say that! To say that "My Client is not guilty of this crime" I can see....

Saying that she is innocent puts a lot on their shoulders.

I think it's just parsing words, playing a semantic game. They are saying she is "innocent" of first degree murder that would result in a DP conviction. They are not saying she isn't guilty of a lesser charge. That's what a lot of the law comes down to anyway, loopholes, technicalities.
 
Ok legal and those in the know people .... Where would I find the subpoena records for Caylee's pediatrician, if the SA did ask for them?

Thanks.
 
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