Questions you'd like answers to...

[southernmimi]

No, I don't think it points to BDI. I was hoping for this to not devolve into BDI vs. PDI -- because we've been down this road a million times now -- but so be it. Just going to leave it at that, respectfully.

If Burke is taken out of the equation completely, the scenario and events make more sense...to me anyway.

 

[neesaki]

I haven’t really followed this case in a long time, and don’t remember if I ever knew the answer to this question anyway. So if anyone can answer this would appreciate: What is the prominent theory, if there is one, as to why JBR was redressed, the gown replaced with the shirt and long johns , etc. And, is it speculated that PR did the redressing? TIA

 

[Userid]

I haven’t really followed this case in a long time, and don’t remember if I ever knew the answer to this question anyway. So if anyone can answer this would appreciate: What is the prominent theory, if there is one, as to why JBR was redressed, the gown replaced with the shirt and long johns , etc. And, is it speculated that PR did the redressing? TIA

I don't think there is one. It's as varied as who the murderer is. Some think BR, some think PR, some think JR, some think PR & JR, some think she wasn't re-dressed.

 

[fr brown]

Patsy might have gone in to take JonBenet to the bathroom around midnight and found she had wet her bed. Spitz says that the marks on JonBenet's neck look like knuckle marks so perhaps she was slung around by her turtleneck before it was stripped off. The white Gap top was put on. The over-large size 12 underwear was perhaps to cover a Pull-up diaper. A package of these were half-pulled out of a cupboard.

Things might have calmed down, I suspect, when JonBenet announced she was hungry again. Patsy, still seething, about bed-wetting and maybe her marriage, impulsively bashes JonBenet in the head while JonBenet is sitting at the table.

 

[fr brown]

I'd like to see a crime scene photo of the dictionary with the corner folded to point to the word "incest" (per Steve Thomas in "JonBenet"). I'd like to know if that was planted as a clue. Better get out my ouija board....

I used to look up forbidden words in the dictionary (no internet then). The whole point was that no one knew you were looking up "bad" words. (So Burke did not fold the corner, imo.)

I'd like to know if Patsy planted clues that were too subtle to be picked up.

 

[Userid]

I'd like to see a crime scene photo of the dictionary with the corner folded to point to the word "incest" (per Steve Thomas in "JonBenet"). I'd like to know if that was planted as a clue. Better get out my ouija board....

I used to look up forbidden words in the dictionary (no internet then). The whole point was that no one knew you were looking up "bad" words. (So Burke did not fold the corner, imo.)

I'd like to know if Patsy planted clues that were too subtle to be picked up.

I wonder about that also, but I can't think of any possible explanation why PR (or JR, or even BR) would bookmark that word -- it just makes zero sense to me. If PR was staging this crime, that would be the last thing she would out in public (that incest was taking place in her family, in her home). The whole point in staging the crime, was to make it appear as if an outsider did it; but this bookmarked page goes completely against that theory, so why would it be done on purpose?

I definitely feel like PR bookmarked that page, but that perhaps she did it long before that night. If you are BDI, this is a very strong point of emphasis to prove that theory. I'm PDI, but even I must admit that. If someone was actually looking up this word, sometime before the actual murder occurred, that's very telling. And to me, only a person like PR (who majored in English, correct? So she's well read and surely did this before) would use a corner to bookmark a page.

One other scenario is, if it was done as part of the staging that night, is that PR was trying to set up JR out of anger about something. Here's where, if you're PDI, it proves that theory. If PR discovered JR acting inappropriately with JBR, and snapped that night, she would want JR to pay for his sick behavior -- so she highlighted that particular word in his dictionary in his office to make it look like he was preoccupied with that subject and to imply the inappropriate abuse that was going on, without actually saying it; and to point police towards JR, even though she was directly responsible for the murder.

 

[fr brown]

I wonder about that also, but I can't think of any possible explanation why PR (or JR, or even BR) would bookmark that word -- it just makes zero sense to me. If PR was staging this crime, that would be the last thing she would out in public (that incest was taking place in her family, in her home). The whole point in staging the crime, was to make it appear as if an outsider did it; but this bookmarked page goes completely against that theory, so why would it be done on purpose?

I definitely feel like PR bookmarked that page, but that perhaps she did it long before that night. If you are BDI, this is a very strong point of emphasis to prove that theory. I'm PDI, but even I must admit that. If someone was actually looking up this word, sometime before the actual murder occurred, that's very telling. And to me, only a person like PR (who majored in English, correct? So she's well read and surely did this before) would use a corner to bookmark a page.

One other scenario is, if it was done as part of the staging that night, is that PR was trying to set up JR out of anger about something. Here's where, if you're PDI, it proves that theory. If PR discovered JR acting inappropriately with JBR, and snapped that night, she would want JR to pay for his sick behavior -- so she highlighted that particular word in his dictionary in his office to make it look like he was preoccupied with that subject and to imply the inappropriate abuse that was going on, without actually saying it; and to point police towards JR, even though she was directly responsible for the murder.

The advantage of an alphabet is that it's, well, alphabetical. I can see bookmarking a page in a Chinese dictionary, but not in an English one.

Steve Thomas implies the dictionary was open. How many crime scenes include an open book? This scene had two.

I think Patsy's plan B was to have the crime scene point toward John as the perpetrator. (I don't see any reason to assume John was or had been sexually molesting JonBenet.)

 

[Userid]

The advantage of an alphabet is that it's, well, alphabetical. I can see bookmarking a page in a Chinese dictionary, but not in an English one.

Steve Thomas implies the dictionary was open. How many crime scenes include an open book? This scene had two.

I think Patsy's plan B was to have the crime scene point toward John as the perpetrator. (I don't see any reason to assume John was or had been sexually molesting JonBenet.)

Okay, but simply because it's alphabetical, doesn't mean that the person would automatically remember the specific word (s)he was looking up at a later date; particularly if said person wasn't familiar with the word until recently. Also, one would bookmark the page if multiple words were being looked up, to refer to back to it.

There are conflicting reports on whether she was being abused or not, if I recall correctly. But assuming you're right, why would that be PR's Plan B then? Why else would she want to paint JR as the perpetrator?

Also, what was the second book that was left opened?

 

[fr brown]

Okay, but simply because it's alphabetical, doesn't mean that the person would automatically remember the specific word (s)he was looking up at a later date; particularly if said person wasn't familiar with the word until recently. Also, one would bookmark the page if multiple words were being looked up, to refer to back to it.

There are conflicting reports on whether she was being abused or not, if I recall correctly. But assuming you're right, why would that be PR's Plan B then? Why else would she want to paint JR as the perpetrator?

Also, what was the second book that was left opened?

I think you are talking about Burke; the adults in the house would know how to spell "incest" and, in any case, would not need to look it up in the dictionary. (You know how to spell it, right?) If Burke wanted to bookmark it, he most likely wouldn't fold the page up so the corner was pointing ostentatiously to "incest." He'd put a piece of paper in the page and close the book. Then nobody would know he was looking up words; if someone came across the bookmark, he might assume it was marking "incessant" or something.

A guilty Patsy might assume that her guilt would be apparent to everyone, especially John. The best defense against that is attack.

It's not unknown for a woman to abuse a child. It would mean that Patsy was more deviant than she appeared to the outside world.

As is generally known, the Bible on the third floor was open to Psalm 35/36.

 

[Dragognosis]

"I wonder about that also, but I can't think of any possible explanation why PR (or JR, or even BR) would bookmark that word."

Think outside the box. Patsy left messages for Patsy.

 

[Userid]

I think you are talking about Burke; the adults in the house would know how to spell "incest" and, in any case, would not need to look it up in the dictionary. (You know how to spell it, right?) If Burke wanted to bookmark it, he most likely wouldn't fold the page up so the corner was pointing ostentatiously to "incest." He'd put a piece of paper in the page and close the book. Then nobody would know he was looking up words; if someone came across the bookmark, he might assume it was marking "incessant" or something.

A guilty Patsy might assume that her guilt would be apparent to everyone, especially John. The best defense against that is attack.

It's not unknown for a woman to abuse a child. It would mean that Patsy was more deviant than she appeared to the outside world.

As is generally known, the Bible on the third floor was open to Psalm 35/36.

Again, it's not about spelling or alphabetizing -- it's about remembering the word as a whole. You can know how to spell any word in the dictionary, but if you can't remember it (i.e. how it's pronounced, what the first letter is, etc.), you won't be able to find it without some sort of marker. And this wouldn't be uncommon for a person who wasn't familiar with a particular word until recently (i.e. in relation to when that person looked it up).

PR wouldn't throw JR under the bus simply for sole-preservation. She would have simply framed it as a stranger, as she did with the ransom note. It was her husband after all.

 

[Dragognosis]

I haven’t really followed this case in a long time, and don’t remember if I ever knew the answer to this question anyway. So if anyone can answer this would appreciate: What is the prominent theory, if there is one, as to why JBR was redressed, the gown replaced with the shirt and long johns , etc. And, is it speculated that PR did the redressing? TIA

The shirt, longjohns and blanket were all white: as in burial shroud.

 

[UKGuy]

I haven’t really followed this case in a long time, and don’t remember if I ever knew the answer to this question anyway. So if anyone can answer this would appreciate: What is the prominent theory, if there is one, as to why JBR was redressed, the gown replaced with the shirt and long johns , etc. And, is it speculated that PR did the redressing? TIA

neesaki,
There are a few prominent theories and they mostly relate to your favorite RDI theory, e.g.

1. Patsy is telling the truth, i.e. she redressed JonBenet as per her version of events.

2. Burke partially redressed JonBenet, with Patsy and John refining the staging at a later stage.

3. John wiped down and redressed JonBenet possibly including hiding her somewhere other than the wine-cellar, thus explaining why Fleet White never saw JonBenet when he looked in the wine-cellar early that morning?

Now in 2. i.e. BDI, JonBenet is redressed in the White Gap Top to fit the parents version of events, i.e. straight to bed, and the longjohns, well Burke added those and Patsy is taking a bullet for Burke. Yet note nobody is claiming responsibility for the size-12 Bloomingdales, any JDI or PDI like to explain why?

If you review the forensic evidence, e.g. dna deposits, bloodstains, etc. You should arrive at the assumption that there was more than one redressing event, due to the distribution of the evidence.

This is inconsistent with Patsy's version of events, i.e. 1. suggesting Patsy is covering for either John or Burke?


Taking C S Pierce's pragmatic approach, the theory to the best explanation for what we currently have is that the case is either JDI or BDI with Patsy helping with the staging?

.

 

[Dragognosis]

Or Patsy did the redressing and DIDN'T lie about it.

 

[UKGuy]

Or Patsy did the redressing and DIDN'T lie about it.

Dragognosis,

Option 1. covers this as Patsy is on record saying so. Whether she lied or not we can only decide given the current forensic evidence, e.g. Patsy's fibers are embedded into the ligature knotting, placing her near JonBenet, after she was allegedly put to bed.


From memory the longjohns, size-12 underwear, and the Barbie Nightgown are all bloodstained with JonBenet's blood, the Barbie Nightgown also has Burke Ramsey's touch dna deposits.

So you could speculate that the White Gap Top replaced the Barbie Nightgown precisely because it was bloodstained?

Bear in mind Patsy's account offers no explanation for the bloodstained size-12 Bloomingdales !

.

 

[MaryNo]

My question has always been where people got the theory JB was killed because she wet the bed. With all of the dysfunctions in this family, bedwetting is the least of it.

 

[Dragognosis]

That theory is actually rage/accident/cover-up with a cause for rage needed. Bedwetting is a convenience found in the family history. Quite the fiction, a self serving fiction to keep the investigators from having to face the Evil present. Just like the kidnapping fiction kept the perpetrator (Patsy) from facing her Evil and John from facing her Evil as well.

 

[MaryNo]

That theory is actually rage/accident/cover-up with a cause for rage needed. Bedwetting is a convenience found in the family history. Quite the fiction, a self serving fiction to keep the investigators from having to face the Evil present. Just like the kidnapping fiction kept the perpetrator (Patsy) from facing her Evil and John from facing her Evil as well.

Thank you! I think alike. I don't like arguing it, because it seems "settled" among the members. Thanks again!

 

[UKGuy]

My question has always been where people got the theory JB was killed because she wet the bed. With all of the dysfunctions in this family, bedwetting is the least of it.

MaryNo,
This theory has a curious and long debated genesis. Short answer is, it arrived via Steve Thomas' book JonBenet: Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation, it underpins his PDI.

Yet this was not BPD's original theory, they had another theory that required the inclusion and explanation of JonBenet's internal injuries.

This was included in Steve Thomas' draft version of his book, to which the Ramsey's threatened litigation, forcing Steve Thomas to amend his main RDI theory.

Steve Thomas' book has to be parsed and interpreted similar to Kolar's book to discover what he used to think, he uses the same tactic as Kolar, he supplies the facts, without telling you precisely what BPD's lead theory was, so to avoid litigation.

The elephant in the room is JonBenet's sexual assault, acute or chronic. Which really means any PDI has to consider was Patsy abusing JonBenet?

.

 

[Userid]

My question has always been where people got the theory JB was killed because she wet the bed. With all of the dysfunctions in this family, bedwetting is the least of it.

Well, the bedwetting is more confirmed -- so to speak -- than anything else, including JBR ever being assaulted by anybody (there are conflicting reports on this), as far as motive goes. That's simply fact, albeit not a smoking gun. Also, we know she wet the bed that very night; we know that a box of diapers was found half-way pulled out of a drawer; the long johns the victim was found in were soiled; blankets were found in the dryer, indicating they had just been washed. So obviously, this was an event that had occurred multiple times that night.