Questions you'd like answers to...

[BoldBear]

It sounds like you are disregarding BR's story that he waited until everyone was in bed and quiet and then used the flashlight to go downstairs and play. Is there any particular reason you favor a "PR still up" narrative over BR's version? TIA.

You have faith in a story that came out 20 years after the murder? You found Burke trustworthy from the DP interview?

 

[Meara]

You have faith in a story that came out 20 years after the murder? You found Burke trustworthy from the DP interview?

Hi BoldBear. I'm asking a question. There has been a lot of discussion about the story BR told on Dr. Phil about being up alone with the flashlight after the household got quiet, and I haven't kept track of how individual members view that story. The parents and BR say the parents went to bed after JR helped BR with a toy, BR says he went back downstairs alone, and both would fit with narratives in which JBR woke up and went downstairs, too, and violence ensued. Now, granted, the Rs are liars, but they don't lie about everything all the time. So I'm curious about why the narrative our fellow posters are developing is compelling for them even though it is at odds with everything the Rs have said.

 

[sedndun]

It wasn't her dress but her shoes. Death of Innocence:

"Then we drove up Baseline Road all the way to the star the city erects high on the rocky face overlooking Boulder. JonBenet had wanted to get out and walk to the center of the big star, outlined in white lights. Since she was wearing her black velvet Sunday school shoes, I suggested that we'd better wait and come back next Christmas with boots on. She was sorely disappointed. 'Well, what's the use of coming up here if we're not going to stand in the middle of the star?" she had asked."

For me the blanket she was covered with in front of the Christmas tree was really creepy. It was covered with images of pineapples and hearts. Stanley Kubrick couldn't have staged anything so well.

The differing accounts from the same two people are a big part of what's frustrating with this case. Here's the quote from John Ramsey talking to BPD 6/98 I found on acandyrose:

"We had dinner, the kids colored. I think we drove up to -- after we left there I think we drove to the Star, might have driven a little bit to look at the lights. JonBenet was miffed because we wouldn't let her walk up to the star because she had on her church dress" (snip) "It was a purple dress."

Both quotes are quite specific, with the book quote coming two years later. Could be nothing- could be a purposeful shift. The word "miffed" was what I clued in on as it seemed to note some real aggravation to me. In your quote, "sorely disappointed," doesn't help diminish things.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

The differing accounts from the same two people are a big part of what's frustrating with this case. Here's the quote from John Ramsey talking to BPD 6/98 I found on acandyrose:

"We had dinner, the kids colored. I think we drove up to -- after we left there I think we drove to the Star, might have driven a little bit to look at the lights. JonBenet was miffed because we wouldn't let her walk up to the star because she had on her church dress" (snip) "It was a purple dress."

Both quotes are quite specific, with the book quote coming two years later. Could be nothing- could be a purposeful shift. The word "miffed" was what I clued in on as it seemed to note some real aggravation to me. In your quote, "sorely disappointed," doesn't help diminish things.

Interesting observation! I can't find my copy of DOI or I'd find it myself: does anyone know if the passage BoldBear quoted was written from John's perspective or Patsy's? As I recall they switched off all the time. I'm not convinced it means anything but it'd be nice to know.

 

[sedndun]

Interesting observation! I can't find my copy of DOI or I'd find it myself: does anyone know if the passage BoldBear quoted was written from John's perspective or Patsy's? As I recall they switched off all the time. I'm not convinced it means anything but it'd be nice to know.

If the shoe excuse came from Patsy, than there's a meaning behind the color of JonBenet's Christmas Eve dress that she may have wanted to downplay.

 

[BBB167893]

1. Who wrote the note?

Patsy.

2. Why is the name "Jonbenet" absent from it?

Distancing.

3. What does SBTC stand for? (I'm familiar with most ideas but am not satisfied)

The only people who know/knew aren't talking.

4. What is the most conclusive evidence of a sexual assault... just curious because this area gets pretty murky and I'm not sure I've seen the conclusive proof even though I think it did happen.

You'd have to be more specific.

While I acknowledge PR's handwriting bears a strong resemblance to the note, I believe the CONTENT is CLEARLY attributable to an adolescent / young adult male. (And I'm not saying BR) The quotes from bad action movies, the quasi-military / terrorist tone of it, the repetition, the graphic violence, and even the use of an acronym signature all point me in that direction of say 16-28 yr old. Also using a garrote fits this m.o.

That's interesting, because the analyses performed by the FBI agents said it was most likely a woman or a very feminine man. I'm not just talking about the CBS analysis; there were many of them, and that's what they came up with.

I also don't think if RDI they would use $118K in note.

They would if they were trying to make it look like a disgruntled employee.

That seems more like say a bank teller, a coworker, or if you've seen the radar online vid of inside the house, JR has large sum checks just laying around in plain sight. I can imagine someone coming in knowing he's rich

Precisely: why not ask for a million?

I think it's perfectly possible someone hid in that large house and wrote the note on the fly while Ramseys were out. Intruder is already doing something dangerous, so hiding in the house for a while doesn't seem like "high risk"... esp when the whole thing is already V high risk.

Except most people undertaking high-risk endeavors try not to add MORE risk. Just to use an example, when SEAL Team Six raided Osama bin Laden's compound, they did everything they could to minimize danger.

I have a lot more to say! but tho is my very first post so I'll stick to the above questions and my current feeling that IDI.

Welcome.

 

[BBB167893]

Personally I believe RDI. But I am struggling to understand this new rule since a former prosecutor (Lacy), the original prosecutor's lead investigator (Smit), a federal appeals court judge (Carnes) and a handful of Boulder police (per Kolar's and Thomas' books) believe (or believed in the case of Smit) IDI. This remains true regardless of how much we try to discredit each of them.

Not disagreeing with anyone, just borrowing the above bolded sentence to make an observation.

Problem is, most of those people have no credibility. Which is part of the issue.

 

[Miz Adventure]

It sounds like you are disregarding BR's story that he waited until everyone was in bed and quiet and then used the flashlight to go downstairs and play. Is there any particular reason you favor a "PR still up" narrative over BR's version? TIA.

Patsy probably knew she would not get much rest that night, even before the tragic events took place. She needed to pack some stuff for the Charlevoix trip the following day - they would be leaving very early.

Then, in my BDI theory, she went downstairs to see what the kids were doing (she would have known they were not in bed) and discovered her daughter's body.

Then of course - after some of the unimaginable shock had subsided the couple had to think and plan what to do. That would have taken them right up to the time that Patsy made the 911 call.

The couple then called their friends, who must have been mightily surprised to see Patsy wearing exactly what she had been wearing to the party the previous day. According to people who knew the Ramseys, Patsy never wore the same outfit two days running.

I don't think she even carried the same purse with her two days running.

 

[Userid]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that, the sum of $118,000 was used by the R's because, if the money needed to disappear (i.e. if the charade needed to roll on; if the kidnapping scheme needed extra legs), they wanted to make it as "painless" as possible financially for themselves?

It's a lot easier -- both financially and logistically -- to make $118,000 disappear than any other amount exceeding that; particularly because it was JR's bonus. It's literally "money to burn."

 

[andreww]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that, the sum of $118,000 was used by the R's because, if the money needed to disappear (i.e. if the charade needed to roll on; if the kidnapping scheme needed extra legs), they wanted to make it as "painless" as possible financially for themselves?

It's a lot easier -- both financially and logistically -- to make $118,000 disappear than any other amount exceeding that; particularly because it was JR's bonus. It's literally "money to burn."

I'm sure that was on Patsy's mind. Even rich people don't have boatloads of cash lying about. A high ransom amount would mean divesting of investments to raise capital, something she didn't want to do as that cash would never be used anyway.

 

[Miz Adventure]

The R's would have known that their money was safe. There was no 'kidnapper'. JR attempting to get the money from the bank was simply lip service, imo, just a gesture to show he was making an effort to get the money.


As for the actual amount - well we must assume that PR was in a bit of a panic and perhaps that amount just happened to be in her head as she was writing? Asking for millions may have seemed a bit cliched?

Patsy may have thought that $118,000 would seem like a fortune to one of John's employees, who she probably regarded as 'peasants'.

 

[HarmonyE.]

The R's would have known that their money was safe. There was no 'kidnapper'. JR attempting to get the money from the bank was simply lip service, imo, just a gesture to show he was making an effort to get the money.


As for the actual amount - well we must assume that PR was in a bit of a panic and perhaps that amount just happened to be in her head as she was writing? Asking for millions may have seemed a bit cliched?

Patsy may have thought that $118,000 would seem like a fortune to one of John's employees, who she probably regarded as 'peasants'.

Yeah, and I think part of the problem with deciphering this most remarkable clue is that Patsy may have had more than one potential "suspect" in mind when working on it. The "small foreign faction" nonsense was not intended to be believed. Or maybe she started with that concept and then changed her mind, realizing how silly she was sounding. (And hence the spelling errors ceased.) Then she drifted off to trying to convince LE to focus on some peasant who would be dumb be enough to think a little foreign faction would be a clever ruse. And as you say, also poor enough to think 118k was a mega fortune. Like the poor housekeeper - who I believe Patsy named right away - who had just asked to be fronted 2k. Or maybe a handyman or some other lesser life. I've never been fully convinced about the bonus money, mostly because John's payout was earlier in the year and probably wasn't in the forefront Patsy's mind by then. Although maybe it was a subconscious thing. 118k would be a very big salary for working people in 1996. It was just a bonus to wealthy JR.

 

[andreww]

Yeah, and I think part of the problem with deciphering this most remarkable clue is that Patsy may have had more than one potential "suspect" in mind when working on it. The "small foreign faction" nonsense was not intended to be believed. Or maybe she started with that concept and then changed her mind, realizing how silly she was sounding. (And hence the spelling errors ceased.) Then she drifted off to trying to convince LE to focus on some peasant who would be dumb be enough to think a little foreign faction would be a clever ruse. And as you say, also poor enough to think 118k was a mega fortune. Like the poor housekeeper - who I believe Patsy named right away - who had just asked to be fronted 2k. Or maybe a handyman or some other lesser life. I've never been fully convinced about the bonus money, mostly because John's payout was earlier in the year and probably wasn't in the forefront Patsy's mind by then. Although maybe it was a subconscious thing. 118k would be a very big salary for working people in 1996. It was just a bonus to wealthy JR.

I think the amount was obviously related to the bonus. The whole note was directed at John's business, it only makes sense that she would use that figure. Nobody else on the planet is going to ask for $118K. Maybe $100K, maybe $1M, or maybe even $120K, but lets get real here.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I think the amount was obviously related to the bonus. The whole note was directed at John's business, it only makes sense that she would use that figure. Nobody else on the planet is going to ask for $118K. Maybe $100K, maybe $1M, or maybe even $120K, but lets get real here.

John's bonus had been paid out 10 months earlier and it was actually much higher. It netted out to around 118k, give or take a few hundred dollars. I don't know about anyone else, but if I got a 10k bonus, it's a 10k bonus in my mind, not at a $7200 bonus after taxes. I'm not saying it wasn't in Patsy's mind. I'm just not convinced given the fact that it wasn't his gross bonus, it was not the exact amount of his net payout, and the fact that it had been paid nearly a year earlier . If it really had been a Christmas bonus and/or exactly a 118k bonus as the media reported, I'd be convinced. (Unless they were trying to frame someone in John's payroll department.)

However, if it was put in their deliberately - and it's very possible it was - I think that would have been John's doing, not Patsy's idea. I don't think she paid much attention to what was coming in, as long as she could spend it freely.

 

[andreww]

John's bonus had been paid out 10 months earlier and it was actually much higher. It netted out to around 118k, give or take a few hundred dollars. I don't know about anyone else, but if I got a 10k bonus, it's a 10k bonus in my mind, not at a $7200 bonus after taxes. I'm not saying it wasn't in Patsy's mind. I'm just not convinced given the fact that it wasn't his gross bonus, it was not the exact amount of his net payout, and the fact that it had been paid nearly a year earlier . If it really had been a Christmas bonus and/or exactly a 118k bonus as the media reported, I'd be convinced. (Unless they were trying to frame someone in John's payroll department.)

However, if it was put in their deliberately - and it's very possible it was - I think that would have been John's doing, not Patsy's idea. I don't think she paid much attention to what was coming in, as long as she could spend it freely.

Why would you think Patsy wouldn't know? My wife knows more about my bonus amounts than I do. She does the banking and handles bills and I don't doubt that Patsy did the same. She was materialistic and I'm sure things like that would have been of great interest to her.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HarmonyE.]

Why would you think Patsy wouldn't know? My wife knows more about my bonus amounts than I do. She does the banking and handles bills and I don't doubt that Patsy did the same.She was materialistic and I'm sure things like that would have been of great interest to her.

I'm not sure Patsy handled the finances. It's nice that you are sure. But I'm not. I think it's more likely their accountant handled their finances and Patsy had plastic with high limits to use as she saw fit. I can't see a man like John Ramsey handing over his rather complex finances to a frivolous person like Patsy.

Possibly worth noting is that it was John who originally said "hey, that really was close to my net bonus amount", not Patsy.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Hey - you guys are lucky. I've never had a bonus in my life. Shows what a cr*p worker I must be. Lol.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Hey - you guys are lucky. I've never had a bonus in my life. Shows what a cr*p worker I must be. Lol.

Meh, they are often actually corporate scams. In the past 10 - 20 years a lot of large companies in particular have moved a chunk of salaries over to a "bonus" pool. One corporation I worked for was honest about it and called it "at risk" money. For instance, if you made 50k, they'd take away 10% and move it over to the bonus pool to be paid the following year - if they wanted to pay it. So, your salary would go permanently to 45k and you'd only get your missing 5k the following year as a "bonus" if certain metrics were met or depending upon the company's profitability that year. And usually you'd only end up with a percentage of that 5k, not the full amount. As the years went on, people forgot that their salaries had been lowered in the first place - and new employees never knew about it - and voila! - bonuses.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'm not sure Patsy handled the finances. It's nice that you are sure. But I'm not. I think it's more likely their accountant handled their finances and Patsy had plastic with high limits to use as she saw fit. I can't see a man like John Ramsey handing over his rather complex finances to a frivolous person like Patsy.

Possibly worth noting is that it was John who originally said "hey, that really was close to my net bonus amount", not Patsy.

Probably. She once went to Texas and saw the Texas women had big diamond rings so Patsy HAD to get a big one. She was narcissistic beyond belief and all about appearances. I can't see her lifting a finger to finances. Her time was invested in herself and JB.

 

[k-mac]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that, the sum of $118,000 was used by the R's because, if the money needed to disappear (i.e. if the charade needed to roll on; if the kidnapping scheme needed extra legs), they wanted to make it as "painless" as possible financially for themselves?

It's a lot easier -- both financially and logistically -- to make $118,000 disappear than any other amount exceeding that; particularly because it was JR's bonus. It's literally "money to burn."

it really was a huge clue to their involvement the lack of extreme hardship one would expect inflicted to them.
I would have at least looked at the intruder theory maybe if they had of thrown JBRin the back of the jaguar with the mink coat .....copious amounts of jewels....oh and lets see maybe that pasta j $10k cheque laying on the sideboard..
if your going for a ransom who wouldn't steal stuff there for the taking??

greedy .....even in self preservation and justification.