Questions you'd like answers to...

[Splenda]

At what point did Patsy change her clothes from the ones worn to the neighbors' home? Did she wear them on up until the time the body was brought upstairs? (Forgive me if this has been discussed before. Newby here)

 

[HarmonyE.]

it really was a huge clue to their involvement the lack of extreme hardship one would expect inflicted to them.
I would have at least looked at the intruder theory maybe if they had of thrown JBRin the back of the jaguar with the mink coat .....copious amounts of jewels....oh and lets see maybe that pasta j $10k cheque laying on the sideboard..
if your going for a ransom who wouldn't steal stuff there for the taking??

greedy .....even in self preservation and justification.

Good point. Having never been an IDI, I've never thought about that, but the fact that nothing was taken during all that time the intruder hid in house should be the first clue no one came into that house when they were out.

As for the ransom, they knew they'd get the money back so yeah, they just wanted to make it as easy as possible for themselves. And it was easy. John just got his credit limit raised high enough. He'd probably already worked that out in his head during the ransom letter planning phase. More proof to my mind that John was in on the cover up early on.

 

[kanzz]

At what point did Patsy change her clothes from the ones worn to the neighbors' home? Did she wear them on up until the time the body was brought upstairs? (Forgive me if this has been discussed before. Newby here)

I don't remember reading that she ever changed her clothes - from before the dinner party on Christmas night until after she left the house that day. Anybody?

Welcome, newbie!
:greetings:

 

[salamander23]

Hi, that disclaimer you linked to only says that we can't name other suspects.

Either way, it doesn't matter since I'm here for evidence and primary sources.

Saved by the cross is just one of many - she bears the crown, subic bay training center, shall be the conquerer (via Karr's yearbook) - but what is the contextual evidence for any one of them being right... for example, did PR attend a church where "saved by the cross" was of common usage???

Also, although I'm a newbie to WS, I'm not new to the case

I've read the autopsy and have not seen anything that illustrates sexual trauma to the exclusion of more innocent explanations. If there is hard evidence trust me I'm all ears! Please point me in the right direction, but bear in mind I'm not interested in what the local newscast said nearly as much as I am in further lab reports, depositions, etc.

While I'm at it, let me add one to my list of burning questions: Was the garrote tested for DNA? What were the results?

Lastly is anyone familiar with PBWorks website on Jonbenet? It's fascinating but most of the links are defunct. Any workarounds for this?

Thanks

 

[Userid]

^ I'm RDI, but when I saw JMK's yearbook entry, I must say that (to me) the writing looked a lot like the ransom note and had some really eerie similarities; please don't bite my head off anyone, I'm just saying. I realize JMK got many things wrong in his "re-telling," just making an observation.

I am familiar with that site, but you're right, a lot of the links are gone. I don't know of any workarounds from this. Another site you should check out is acandyrose.com if you haven't already (but it has the same problem in some instances). Since it's such an old case, I doubt there's any way to recover the links.

 

[what-did-YOU-find]

I was reading through the recent Ramsey Lawsuit against CBS and noticed a couple of the facts they'd stated in it.

One said that the end potion of the wooden handle used to make the Garrote was never found.
I thought the other end was the paintbrush in the tray? Was there a part missing from it?

Another stated that one of the baseball bats found was not owned by the Ramsey's? Was anyone else aware of this?

Finally it says no Hi-tech shoes/boots were owned by any of the Ramsey's. I thought there was a photo found showing Burke wearing some or other evidence that he had in fact owned some?

 

[kanzz]

^ I'm RDI, but when I saw JMK's yearbook entry, I must say that (to me) the writing looked a lot like the ransom note and had some really eerie similarities; please don't bite my head off anyone, I'm just saying. I realize JMK got many things wrong in his "re-telling," just making an observation.

I am familiar with that site, but you're right, a lot of the links are gone. I don't know of any workarounds from this. Another site you should check out is acandyrose.com if you haven't already (but it has the same problem in some instances). Since it's such an old case, I doubt there's any way to recover the links.

When I saw the JMK yearbook entry, I couldn't help but wonder if he hadn't seen the images of the RN and also recognized how much the handwriting resembled his own - and hence, that's when he started fabricating his fairy tale.

 

[Userid]

^ Yes, I suppose that is possible. Either way, there is a eerie resemblance there (even if that is all it is).

 

[Userid]

I was reading through the recent Ramsey Lawsuit against CBS and noticed a couple of the facts they'd stated in it.

One said that the end potion of the wooden handle used to make the Garrote was never found.
I thought the other end was the paintbrush in the tray? Was there a part missing from it?

Another stated that one of the baseball bats found was not owned by the Ramsey's? Was anyone else aware of this?

Finally it says no Hi-tech shoes/boots were owned by any of the Ramsey's. I thought there was a photo found showing Burke wearing some or other evidence that he had in fact owned some?

Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand it:

The end found in the tray was the brush-tip of the paintbrush.
The "middle" section of the paintbrush (the part between the brush-tip found in the tray and the very bottom of the paintbrush) was the part used for the garrotte.
The very bottom of the paintbrush (which was most likely rounded off) was never found.

What I would like to know is: how long that paintbrush could have been fully intact....i.e. how long that bottom part (that was never found) could have been.

As far as the high-tecs, there are conflicting stories on the topic. If you listen to IDI'ers and the R camp, they say no one ever owned them. If you listen to RDI'ers, they point to pictures with BR wearing what very well could be High-tecs before the murders ever took place; and also the fact that, supposedly, FW notified police that someone in the house did own a pair of High-Tecs and that the R's were lying about the subject. Personally, I believe that BR did own a pair.

I don't know about the baseball bats so I can't help there.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I was reading through the recent Ramsey Lawsuit against CBS and noticed a couple of the facts they'd stated in it.

One said that the end potion of the wooden handle used to make the Garrote was never found.
I thought the other end was the paintbrush in the tray? Was there a part missing from it?

Another stated that one of the baseball bats found was not owned by the Ramsey's? Was anyone else aware of this?

Finally it says no Hi-tech shoes/boots were owned by any of the Ramsey's. I thought there was a photo found showing Burke wearing some or other evidence that he had in fact owned some?

I believe it is correct that the end of the paintbrush is still missing. They have the brush end (broken or whittled off), and the middle part (toggle handle imo) which is tied onto the ligature, but the tip is missing - broken or whittled off.

I don't know anything about the baseball bats, perhaps someone else can answer that. Although it should be noted that the Ramsey's have disavowed ownership of many items in the home, even tissue boxes (Patsy saying she never bought the brand of tissue box left on the dining table, then we see another such box in a crime scene photo in JBRs bathroom). They originally claimed the flashlight was not theirs either as I recall, but have since changed their tune. Even as late as 2016.

Burke has fessed up to owning hiking boots with a compass on it on Dr. Phil - look up the Columbus line of Hi-Tec boots, released in 1992.

Apparently he also admitted he owned a pair when he testified in front of the grand jury in 1998. Also there's a Rocky Mountain News circa 2002 article floating around which links Burke to the Hi-Tec shoes.

Posted by Seeker in the WS forums:

From the Atlanta Interviews. Mr. Levin for the United States. Mr.Wood for the Ramseys. This exchange is with Mr. Levin, Patsy Ramsey, and Lin Wood.

23 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Did you try, in
24 your mind, and perhaps to assist your
25 investigator, identify sources close to your
0122
1 family that might be the origin of the
2 Hi-Tec shoe impression?
3 A. I think, you know, I may have
4 asked Susan if she had ever seen any. I
5 mean, I didn't, I don't know what a Hi-Tec
6 boot looks like, per se. I have tried to
7 kind of, as I am in shoe stores, look around
8 trying to see what, what's the significance
9 and special about a Hi-Tec boot, and I
10 haven't, haven't even seen any yet. But I
11 may have asked Susan, did you know anybody
12 that looked like they wore Hi-Tec shoe,
13 boots, or whatever.
14 Q. Do you recall a period of time,
15 prior to 1996, when your son Burke purchased
16 a pair of hiking boots that had compasses on
17 the shoelaces? And if it helps to
18 remember --
19 A. I can't remember.
20 Q. Maybe this will help your
21 recollection. They were shoes that were
22 purchased while he was shopping with you in
23 Atlanta.
24 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
25 as a fact?
0123
1 MR. LEVIN: I am stating that as
2 a fact.
3 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Does that help
4 refresh your recollection as to whether he
5 owned a pair of shoes that had compasses on
6 them?
7 A. I just can't remember. Bought so
8 many shoes for him.
9 Q. And again, I will provide, I'll
10 say, I'll say this as a fact to you, that,
11 and maybe this will help refresh your
12 recollection, he thought that -- the shoes
13 were special because they had a compass on
14 them, his only exposure for the most part to
15 compasses had been in the plane and he kind
16 of liked the idea of being able to point
17 them different directions. Do you remember
18 him doing that with the shoes?
19 A. I can't remember the shoes. I
20 remember he had a compass thing like a
21 watch, but I can't remember about the shoes.
22 Q. You don't remember him having
23 shoes that you purchased with compasses on
24 them?
25 MR. WOOD: She will tell you that
0124
1 one more time. Go ahead and tell him, and
2 this will be the third time.
3 THE WITNESS: I can't remember.
4 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Okay. Does it
5 jog your memory to know that the shoes with
6 compasses were made by Hi-Tec?
7 MR. WOOD: Are you stating that
8 as a fact?
9 MR. LEVIN: Yes. I am stating
10 that as a fact.
11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't know
12 that.
13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I will state this
14 as a fact. There are two people who have
15 provided us with information, including your
16 son, that he owned Hi-Tec shoes prior to the
17 murder of your daughter.
18 MR. WOOD: You are stating that
19 Burke Ramsey has told you he owned Hi-Tec
20 shoes?
21 MR. LEVIN: Yes.
22 MR. WOOD: He used the phrase
23 Hi-Tec?
24 MR. LEVIN: Yes.
25 MR. WOOD: When?
0125
1 MR. LEVIN: I can't, I can't give
2 you the source. I can tell you that I have
3 that information.
4 MR. WOOD: You said Burke told
5 you.
6 MR. LEVIN: I can't quote it to
7 you for reasons I am sure, as an attorney,
8 you are aware.
9 MR. WOOD: Just so it is clear,
10 there is a difference between you saying that
11 somebody said Burke told them and Burke
12 telling you because Burke has been
13 interviewed by you all December of 1996,
14 January of 1997, June of 1998.
15 Are you saying that it is within
16 those interviews?
17 MR. LEVIN: No.
18 MR. WOOD: So he didn't tell you,
19 he told somebody else you are stating as a
20 fact because I don't think you all have
21 talked to him other than those occasions,
22 have you?
23 MR. KANE: Mr. Wood, we don't
24 want to get into grand jury information.
25 Okay?0126
1 MR. WOOD: Okay.
2 MR. KANE: Fair enough?
3 MR. LEVIN: I am sorry, I should
4 have been more direct. I thought you would
5 understand --

(bolded by Seeker)

And here's the Rocky Mountain News article transcribed (see comment by Teresa):

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.true-crime/IFG1FVpbdwo

 

[what-did-YOU-find]

Many thanks for that ZoriahNZ, I was unaware there was a piece missing or as you say whittled off.

It does seem as though they did/do have information regarding Burke owning Hi-Tech at the time.

I just wondered if you were in a Law suit would you state certain things as fact such as no-one owning the Hi-Tech and possibly the baseball bat if someone can come along and prove otherwise.
Thank you again for sourcing that for me, much appreciated!

 

[ZoriahNZ]

Many thanks for that ZoriahNZ, I was unaware there was a piece missing or as you say whittled off.

It does seem as though they did/do have information regarding Burke owning Hi-Tech at the time.

I just wondered if you were in a Law suit would you state certain things as fact such as no-one owning the Hi-Tech and possibly the baseball bat if someone can come along and prove otherwise.
Thank you again for sourcing that for me, much appreciated!

Lin Wood is well known for sabre-rattling and intimidation tactics when it comes to law suits involving the Ramseys. Supplying verifiable facts to support his/their position? Not so much.

You're welcome! There are so many questions with regard to this case. It's often difficult to lock down what is factual information, what is misinformation and what is assumption/speculation which has morphed into 'conventional wisdom'. That's why this forum and the Forums for Justice are such great resources. You might also want to check out the ACandyRose website which has a lot of old info archived, including transcripts of police interviews etc.

 

[BBB167893]

Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that, the sum of $118,000 was used by the R's because, if the money needed to disappear (i.e. if the charade needed to roll on; if the kidnapping scheme needed extra legs), they wanted to make it as "painless" as possible financially for themselves?

It's a lot easier -- both financially and logistically -- to make $118,000 disappear than any other amount exceeding that; particularly because it was JR's bonus. It's literally "money to burn."

I forget where, but I have heard that idea before. That if push came to shove, it was money they wouldn't miss.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Speaking about the $118k, does anyone else think it's interesting that the reward they offered was $100,000, slightly under the ransom amount? I was reading acandyrose's page in the reward money and one of John's comments popped out at me.

2 MIKE KANE: In arriving at the figure of
3 a hundred thousand, did you talk to professionals
4 or your friends?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think we might have talked
6 -- I don't remember. It may have been. I wanted to
7 make it $118,000. but that seemed a little -- but,
8 basically what I was told is $100,000 is a lot of
9 money. And if somebody has something to say
10 they're going to say it for a hundred grand.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-reward.htm

It's kind of perverse (a word John oddly uses to describe his reaction to media scrutiny a few lines prior) to offer up the ransom your daughter's killer clearly never intended to collect as a means of enticing him or his accomplice to come forward. And he realizes that and stops himself. But what a weird thing to say. He makes a similar move a few months after the murder by offering the family of the killer $100k if he turns himself in. Who says that?

I don't know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to talk about how warped JR's responses as a grieving father are, as usual.

 

[kanzz]

Speaking about the $118k, does anyone else think it's interesting that the reward they offered was $100,000, slightly under the ransom amount? I was reading acandyrose's page in the reward money and one of John's comments popped out at me.


It's kind of perverse (a word John oddly uses to describe his reaction to media scrutiny a few lines prior) to offer up the ransom your daughter's killer clearly never intended to collect as a means of enticing him or his accomplice to come forward. And he realizes that and stops himself. But what a weird thing to say. He makes a similar move a few months after the murder by offering the family of the killer $100k if he turns himself in. Who says that?

I don't know where I'm going with this, I just wanted to talk about how warped JR's responses as a grieving father are, as usual.

WoW, DFF! I don't remember ever seeing that before. You nailed it... Warped!

 

[Rott Mom]

According to JR - "This was an inside job"...

 

[Miz Adventure]

According to JR - "This was an inside job"...

And he knew that better than anyone else.


Regarding the ransom money - and going from memory - am I right in thinking that JR originally suggested $1M but was talked out of offering that sum by his lawyers "Because $100,000 would be enough"?

I reckon that the R's changed their mind about offering a million bucks because it soon occurred to them that the police might, in time, actually be able to pin the murder on some vagrant wino (and make it stick), who just happened to fit the profile of their bogus intruder?

 

[BBB167893]

And he knew that better than anyone else.


Regarding the ransom money - and going from memory - am I right in thinking that JR originally suggested $1M but was talked out of offering that sum by his lawyers "Because $100,000 would be enough"?

I reckon that the R's changed their mind about offering a million bucks because it soon occurred to them that the police might, in time, actually be able to pin the murder on some vagrant wino (and make it stick), who just happened to fit the profile of their bogus intruder?

IOWs, you think they didn't want to actually PAY that money. I think they KNEW they'd never have to pay any money.

 

[CoreyRocks]

Two things I want to add to the discussion re analyzing the enhanced 911 audio:

1. Use headphones. Don't even bother if you are trying to do it from speakers. Get some decent headphones that wrap around the ears.
2. Work from the CBS audio. It's the best we have access to. They weren't "play acting" any more than you were the first time you heard the voices.

I see a few of you have already figured out there's more syllables there than what has been reported. None of you have the actual words right yet in my humble opinion, but you're on the right track in so far as realizing the reported words are wrong and that there are more syllables than reported.

Hi Disgusted .... where did you go? I am still interested in your thoughts on the 911 call. I don't believe you have yet shared your information and ideas about what is actually said.

Thanks.

 

[AndHence]

One of the many curiosities of this case for me has been the role of the Stines. They weren't considered to be as close to the Ramseys as the Whites or the Fernies, yet they would become their closest allies after the murder. They relocated to Atlanta with them where Glen would go to work for John's new company and Susan Stine was even caught impersonating Beckner in emails to the press! I know there is a theory that their son was involved in JonBenet's death, but there is precious little to go on. It is notable that the Stines were not among the families called by Patsy after the 911 call, isn't it?