Ramsey Case Experiences

[sissi]

Much of what you say is media myth. I tried to give you sources, you are within your rights to choose your own. Kane however was a hired gun from PA.
You believe he thinks Patsy is the murderer, this is NOT fact.

Saturday, Kane said JonBenet's killer may never be found. "Absent some startling breakthrough, it is not going to get solved," Kane said.

I could quote him "word for word"..

you had things that said there is no way it could have been somebody on the inside," Kane said.

but by doing so, as I see many do, this would be out of context, as he did a "on one hand..on the other statement

 

[icedtea4me]

On a lighter note, my 87 yr old Aunt, since deceased, said the week after Jonbenet was murdered, "a santa did it". Maybe she was right? Maybe it was a "santa", not the one we think, but considering her aged intuition, she may have been right.

DOI pp 2-3 - Now, with Christmas morning here, Santa had just one more thing to do before the little ones waiting on the third floor were allowed to rip into the picturesque setting. I slipped out to the garage and quickly wheeled in a new bike for Patsy.


-Tea

 

[BBB167893]

"Much of what you say is media myth. I tried to give you sources, you are within your rights to choose your own."

And don't you forget it. I'm familiar with most of your sources.

"Kane however was a hired gun from PA."

That "hired gun" business always fills me with mirth. I'm familiar with that, as well.

"You believe he thinks Patsy is the murderer, this is NOT fact."

Well, he certainly has always played it a bit close to the vest, but I get the notion he doesn't buy an intruder! Here's a direct quote from him:

(He's talking about Mary Keenan-Lacy's contention that the evidence is more consistent with an intruder.) "First of all, the thing I was going to say is if Mary Keenan has reached this conclusion, she clearly has not reviewed her own file"

As for Bill Wise, he didn't sound so sure of her innocence in PEOPLE:

"There were so many conflicting pieces of evidence."

"Saturday, Kane said JonBenet's killer may never be found. 'Absent some startling breakthrough, it is not going to get solved,' Kane said."

He's ALWAYS said that! Incidentally, what program was this? I didn't catch it.

You think a parent can't kill their child?

The U.S. Justice Department, based on studies of cases from 1970-1999, says that nearly 95% of murdered children are KILLED BY A FAMILY MEMBER, usually the parent. The younger the murdered child, the more likely the mother did it.

Paula Sims murdered her two infant daughters, claiming it was an intruder. She's now in prison in Illinois.

Let's not forget Darlie Routier. She killed both of her boys, staged injuries on herself and claimed an intruder did it.

I could go on and on, but I've made my point. It should also be stated that these people didn't have million-dollar lawyers! Money may not buy love, but it can buy freedom! (Thanks, LinasK!)

Look, sissi, I know this probably won't take, but when I came here, I didn't want to fight with you or anyone. I never claimed to "know for sure" that she did it. I just think, and I list the evidence that makes me think so. I'm open to an intruder, but so far, the evidence just does not stack up. Ironically, if some of these red herrings were to be discarded, you might be able to FIND an intruder! (Plus, I go with the little man, which I should have done in the first place!)

Let me give you an example:

We've all seen pictures and video of JB in her pageant outfits. The most famous one is probably the white one with the gold stars and peacock feathers. Now, alone, that's mildly unsettling. But when a picture from 20 years earlier crops up showing Mama in an IDENTICAL outfit, it sets off a few alarm bells in the head! I'm serious! They found a picture from 1977 showing a then-20-year-old Patsy in a costume so similar, it was startling! When something like that happens, the little man inside me (my gut instinct) starts tying knots in my guts.

Dr. Carole Lieberman is a psychiatrist from California. Here's what she had to say:

"Patsy was torn between two conflicting desires. She wanted JonBenet to win, but she wanted to be the most beautiful woman in her house. Which of her desires was stronger: the desire to go on creating this tiny sex object, or her own selfish desire to to be the fairest of all?"

This sounds vaguely familiar. Reminds me of Snow White and the Wicked Queen!

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall

Who's the fairest one of all?"

And the mirror breaks the bad news!

Dr. Jamie Turndorf is a psychotherapist from New York. She weighed in too:

"I've seen this many times with women who have been sexually molested or abused themselves. Patsy may have been replaying the trauma. We call this 'repetition compulsion,' the need to repeat a traumatic experience until it is resolved."

Now, hypothetically, mind you, let us speak the unspeakable: Patsy herself may have been molested or abused as a child. If so, her seemingly odd relationship with her father becomes terrifying: she never could face him! She even married John, a good deal older than herself, because, as the saying goes, women marry their fathers. If so, she never had a chance! And IF, IF, he was fooling around with JB, it may have been unavoidable. And, sadly, many mothers tend to blame the victim. Marilyn Van Derbur Atler is a former beauty queen and incest survivor. She's weighed in on this case several times, even talking to Lou Smit. (What good that would do, I have no idea!)

Finally, Wendy Maltz, a therapist and author, said this:

"There is something terribly sick about Patsy dressing her daughter in costumes like she wore. She's living her sexual fantasies through her 6-year-old child."

You can make up your own mind about it.

One thing I DO know: if there HAD been an intruder, there would be enough DNA evidence for THREE cases. There isn't. Even now, Henry Lee says there isn't.

Another thing I DO know, because I learned it the hard way, and we all had better learn it: villainy wears MANY masks, but none as dangerous as the mask of righteousness.

 

[rashomon]

"Much of what you say is media myth. I tried to give you sources, you are within your rights to choose your own."

And don't you forget it. I'm familiar with most of your sources.

"Kane however was a hired gun from PA."

That "hired gun" business always fills me with mirth. I'm familiar with that, as well.

"You believe he thinks Patsy is the murderer, this is NOT fact."

Well, he certainly has always played it a bit close to the vest, but I get the notion he doesn't buy an intruder! Here's a direct quote from him:

(He's talking about Mary Keenan-Lacy's contention that the evidence is more consistent with an intruder.) "First of all, the thing I was going to say is if Mary Keenan has reached this conclusion, she clearly has not reviewed her own file"

As for Bill Wise, he didn't sound so sure of her innocence in PEOPLE:

"There were so many conflicting pieces of evidence."

"Saturday, Kane said JonBenet's killer may never be found. 'Absent some startling breakthrough, it is not going to get solved,' Kane said."

He's ALWAYS said that! Incidentally, what program was this? I didn't catch it.

You think a parent can't kill their child?

The U.S. Justice Department, based on studies of cases from 1970-1999, says that nearly 95% of murdered children are KILLED BY A FAMILY MEMBER, usually the parent. The younger the murdered child, the more likely the mother did it.

Paula Sims murdered her two infant daughters, claiming it was an intruder. She's now in prison in Illinois.

Let's not forget Darlie Routier. She killed both of her boys, staged injuries on herself and claimed an intruder did it.

I could go on and on, but I've made my point. It should also be stated that these people didn't have million-dollar lawyers! Money may not buy love, but it can buy freedom! (Thanks, LinasK!)

Look, sissi, I know this probably won't take, but when I came here, I didn't want to fight with you or anyone. I never claimed to "know for sure" that she did it. I just think, and I list the evidence that makes me think so. I'm open to an intruder, but so far, the evidence just does not stack up. Ironically, if some of these red herrings were to be discarded, you might be able to FIND an intruder! (Plus, I go with the little man, which I should have done in the first place!)

Let me give you an example:

We've all seen pictures and video of JB in her pageant outfits. The most famous one is probably the white one with the gold stars and peacock feathers. Now, alone, that's mildly unsettling. But when a picture from 20 years earlier crops up showing Mama in an IDENTICAL outfit, it sets off a few alarm bells in the head! I'm serious! They found a picture from 1977 showing a then-20-year-old Patsy in a costume so similar, it was startling! When something like that happens, the little man inside me (my gut instinct) starts tying knots in my guts.

Dr. Carole Lieberman is a psychiatrist from California. Here's what she had to say:

"Patsy was torn between two conflicting desires. She wanted JonBenet to win, but she wanted to be the most beautiful woman in her house. Which of her desires was stronger: the desire to go on creating this tiny sex object, or her own selfish desire to to be the fairest of all?"

This sounds vaguely familiar. Reminds me of Snow White and the Wicked Queen!

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall

Who's the fairest one of all?"

And the mirror breaks the bad news!

Dr. Jamie Turndorf is a psychotherapist from New York. She weighed in too:

"I've seen this many times with women who have been sexually molested or abused themselves. Patsy may have been replaying the trauma. We call this 'repetition compulsion,' the need to repeat a traumatic experience until it is resolved."

Now, hypothetically, mind you, let us speak the unspeakable: Patsy herself may have been molested or abused as a child. If so, her seemingly odd relationship with her father becomes terrifying: she never could face him! She even married John, a good deal older than herself, because, as the saying goes, women marry their fathers. If so, she never had a chance! And IF, IF, he was fooling around with JB, it may have been unavoidable. And, sadly, many mothers tend to blame the victim. Marilyn Van Derbur Atler is a former beauty queen and incest survivor. She's weighed in on this case several times, even talking to Lou Smit. (What good that would do, I have no idea!)

Finally, Wendy Maltz, a therapist and author, said this:

"There is something terribly sick about Patsy dressing her daughter in costumes like she wore. She's living her sexual fantasies through her 6-year-old child."

You can make up your own mind about it.

One thing I DO know: if there HAD been an intruder, there would be enough DNA evidence for THREE cases. There isn't. Even now, Henry Lee says there isn't.

Another thing I DO know, because I learned it the hard way, and we all had better learn it: villainy wears MANY masks, but none as dangerous as the mask of righteousness.

Great post, SuperDave - a lot of food for thought! Your ability to dig deep into that case can only be admired.
I also think your posts are very helpful for fence-sitters because as an ex-believer in the Ramseys' innocence, you actually have been on the other side of the fence and learned the hard way how the RST operates and all about their tactics.

Re Dr. Carole Lieberman assessment of Patsy:
Patsy being torn between feelings of pride, seeing JB as an extension of herself, and feelings of jealousy, knowing that JB would one day grow into the beautiful woman Patsy was never going to be again (the 'Snow White' syndrome) - this would explain a lot. I believe Patsy had a lot of ambivalent feelings toward JB.
Kit Andre, the woman who gave JB singing and dancing lessons, said she had the feeling that the child was Patsy's alter ego, through whom Patsy could relive her own pageant thing. (PMPT, paperback, p. 99).

Immensely interesting statements also by Wendy Maltz and Dr. Jamie Turndorf.
Thanks again SD, for bringing all this up!

 

[sissi]

This isn't an argument SD, this is a debate. We all have facts, we DO choose our sources, btw, it would be fair when choosing a source to "update" their opinions. Very few, with exception of those that bungled in the first place and have some kind of ego-stake in this, have not changed their position. Those far off ,not involved, expert opinions have never played a part in my decision making. I want only the opinions of the DA, the coroner, the police and those that were directly involved with exposing the real evidence.
There were things done, an example of this was the hiring of Scheck, not because they wanted him, or that he was playing an important part, but to "keep the Ramseys" from hiring him. When all of the underhanded "tricks", among which was "not wanting them to arrange interviews" and YES I found the quote, are uncovered , I can only hope that these LE that think "they" can operate outside the law, come to justice themselves, maybe lose a few pensions. We can not have law enforcement publicly convicting innocent people in their efforts to promote their own weak theories.

Did you see Darlie kill her children?

 

[narlacat]

Sissi
I respect you have your view on this case, which is different than most posters here.
What I don't get is, I've never once heard you say what PR did to JBR was not right.
Do you think it was okay that she was treated as a sex object at the ripe old age of 6?
Does that sit okay with you?

I think the way PR treated her daughter has ALOT to do with her death, even you who thinks it was an intruder, should be able to admit that the way she treated her daughter was NOT appropriate and could have been the reason some sicko might have targeted her.
It's like you condone how she was treated.

 

[BBB167893]

"Your ability to dig deep into that case can only be admired."

Tell that to my brother!

"I also think your posts are very helpful for fence-sitters because as an ex-believer in the Ramseys' innocence, you actually have been on the other side of the fence and learned the hard way how the RST operates and all about their tactics."

Yes, I am. My argument is not SO much with what they say as with HOW they talk to other people sometimes. That's it. I mean, my mother's an IDI!

"This isn't an argument SD, this is a debate. We all have facts, we DO choose our sources, btw, it would be fair when choosing a source to "update" their opinions."

Okay, that's just fine with me. It's when people start saying I'm mocking victims that I really get mad! Not so much from the insult itself, mind you. But I've seen my share of victim-mocking from thr double B. What they said about the Van Dams was as horrific to me as what I say about the Rs might be to you. But ti be fair, sometimes I'm not myself. I get angry, and I'm not afraid to retract a statement when I think I'm wrong.

"I want only the opinions of the DA, the coroner, the police and those that were directly involved with exposing the real evidence."

That's fine. Does that mean that you discount the opinions of outsiders, whether they be pro-R like Larry Pozner or Jerralyn Merritt, or anti-R like Wendy Murphy or Nancy Grace?

"but to "keep the Ramseys" from hiring him"

Well, I don't know if that was such a dirty trick. It's like the NBA draft, or more like a Hollywood draft idea. That's where you pick up someone or something, just so they other guys can't use it, even if you don't plan to use it yourself. I guess you mean that it was too much like war, huh? A war mindset, I mean.

"We can not have law enforcement publicly convicting innocent people in their efforts to promote their own weak theories."

THAT I totally agree with you on, even if I'm not so sure it was weak. (I have my doubts, mind you.) Not so much a moral problem, although that does figure into it. I just don't see the wisdom of giving everything to the other side. I mean, if I own a store, I'm not going to advertise that I have this an my employer doesn't and who I got it from. Then HE's going to know where to get it!

"Did you see Darlie kill her children?"

Okay, I see your point. No, I didn't. To be truthful, I don't follow that case as strongly as this one. But I have to say that the cops in that case did a lot better than this one!

I think you and I will see a bit more eye-to-eye now.

 

[sissi]

Narlacat: I believe Patsy did what she knew, it was a part of her experience that she shared with her daughter. Statistically, I have never heard that monsters who murder children pick them according to their activities. They do target children, and often pretty children, however, most often the victims are "seen" , playing on the sidewalk, walking home from a friend's house, sitting in a library. We can not blame Patsy for her daughter being targeted by a monster.
Pretty children , yes, can be targeted. I had three experiences with my own, once in a grocery store , once in a mall, and once while she was playing barbies on our porch. I was within a few feet of her each time, and have always wondered WHY so many experiences with "this one child" and never anything (thank God) similar with my others. This is one of the reasons I became involved in this case, btw. The episode that worried me the most was the man, who pulled up in front of my house and approached her, had he stalked her for days, had he just noticed her while driving by,??? The man in the grocery store was ahead of me in line, he grabbed her hand and started walking. I grabbed her hand back, he said, in a very charming manner, that he had forgotten he didn't have one of his own with him, and just knee jerk grabbed her hand. BS!!!! Both ,the man on my porch and the man in the grocery store, were well dressed attractive men, nothing close to what one would expect was a monster Her teacher, kindergarten, said , "It must be so much fun to dress your own little barbie doll". HUH? Anyway , I will stop the rambling, but ya' get it, why I instantly became absorbed in this case. There are many ,so it seems, perverts out there, it's not as rare as we would like to believe. To protect them you must be vigilant, however, no one would expect them to take them from their beds. Then........along came Megan,vandam, Klass, Aisenburg, Jonbenet, Elizabeth Smart, and the one whose name I have forgotten that was found hidden in the attic in the home of the child the babysitter normally cared for. We watch them so carefully and then someone takes them from where we feel they are safe.

 

[narlacat]

You have to be sooo careful these days, the gall of some people, like that man in line!

<<Her teacher, kindergarten, said , "It must be so much fun to dress your own little barbie doll".>>

Are you talking the case here or your little girl??
Sorry, couldn't quite get that bit.


But you didn't answer my question Sissi.
Do you think it was okay how PR treated her daughter re: dressing her innapropiately, teaching her provocative moves etc etc
I find it interesting that most PR supporters not only believe in her innocence but also give her a pass where her crappy parenting was concerned.

 

[rashomon]

<<Her teacher, kindergarten, said , "It must be so much fun to dress your own little barbie doll".>>
Are you talking the case here or your little girl??
Sorry, couldn't quite get that bit.

I am a kindergarten teacher too, and that's a pretty sarcastic comment from your kindergarten teacher imo. But maybe I'm wrong and she meant it as a compliment?
How did you interpret her statement to you, Sissi? Did you feel offended by it? Just curious.

 

[sissi]

Narlacat, Yes it was my daughter's kindergarten teacher, I gave it a "huh?" because I thought it was an inappropriate statement coming from her teacher.

I did answer, in my way, without going into what I thought of the costumes or the moves. It reminded me, lord I'm full of anecdotes , of a citywide dramatic reading contest, that my daughter won, btw, where she was doing a little piece on a "lemonade" stand. One of the lines was " don't they have a bathroom around here",it was after the little girl "in her sales pitch drank a bit each time a potential customer came along", the coach told my daughter to wiggle a bit as she recited the line, to look like she needed to "go". She did, I didn't like it, the audience all did the ahh giggle giggle thing, and it probably was one of the moves that the judges graded her on ,leading to her win. It's not the mom normally who tosses in the "winning moves" it's the coaches that know what you need to do to win. I was uncomfortable with it, as I'm certain Patsy was with Pam Griffin's overthetop feathered "monster of a costume". For Patsy, pageants were something she knew, she hired dance instructors, and others for the basics and used the "wisdom" of Christine Griffin to add the "winning moves".

Did this activity stimulate some sick murderer to target Jonbenet? Maybe. However, some , such as Santa had already made her their "special angel".

 

[BBB167893]

"We can not blame Patsy for her daughter being targeted by a monster."

If that's what happened! I don't believe it did. I have my reasons.

"Then........along came Megan,vandam, Klass, Aisenburg, Jonbenet, Elizabeth Smart, and the one whose name I have forgotten that was found hidden in the attic in the home of the child the babysitter normally cared for."

Please! Anyone with eyes can see those cases bear absolutely NO resemblance to this one! Not even close!

And Marc Klaas said so. I can quote him if you like.

 

[Britt]

I want only the opinions of the DA, the coroner, the police and those that were directly involved with exposing the real evidence.

Which police officers does this apply to?

Did you see Darlie kill her children?

Huh? Are you saying that cases with circumstantial evidence and no eyewitnesses should not be prosecuted? Most child abusers and killers tend not to commit their crimes in front of witnesses.

 

[Toltec]

Anyone have the url with the JonBenet Marilyn Monroe outfit?

 

[sissi]

I am a kindergarten teacher too, and that's a pretty sarcastic comment from your kindergarten teacher imo. But maybe I'm wrong and she meant it as a compliment?
How did you interpret her statement to you, Sissi? Did you feel offended by it? Just curious.

I'm sorry I had already started the answer before your post, and probably didn't click submit for awhile. Yes, I thought it was inappropriate, no matter what the intention.

 

[LinasK]

I did answer, in my way, without going into what I thought of the costumes or the moves. It reminded me, lord I'm full of anecdotes , of a citywide dramatic reading contest, that my daughter won, btw, where she was doing a little piece on a "lemonade" stand. One of the lines was " don't they have a bathroom around here",it was after the little girl "in her sales pitch drank a bit each time a potential customer came along", the coach told my daughter to wiggle a bit as she recited the line, to look like she needed to "go". She did, I didn't like it, the audience all did the ahh giggle giggle thing, and it probably was one of the moves that the judges graded her on ,leading to her win. It's not the mom normally who tosses in the "winning moves" it's the coaches that know what you need to do to win. I was uncomfortable with it, as I'm certain Patsy was with Pam Griffin's overthetop feathered "monster of a costume". For Patsy, pageants were something she knew, she hired dance instructors, and others for the basics and used the "wisdom" of Christine Griffin to add the "winning moves".

Did this activity stimulate some sick murderer to target Jonbenet? Maybe.

Sorry, I'm not buying the fact that the showgirl costume was identical/nearly identical to Patsy's and not her idea, nor that Patsy- the ideal of clothing perfection, hence the Christmas eve top fight- would have allowed JB to appear in any pageant in an outfit Patsy was uncomfortable with!

I believe John was that sick murderer.

 

[RiverRat]

Hey Sissi - I double dare ya to go find out just exactly who it was that did come up with the ShowGirl brainstorm. Double Dare! :innocent:

RR

 

[BBB167893]

"I'm not buying the fact that the showgirl costume was identical/nearly identical to Patsy's and not her idea"

Guess you read my post about that, didn't you, LinasK?

 

[olive]

I know people who knew Patsy. Not well, necessarily. I'm not close to any of these people, and they weren't close to Patsy. But they grew up with her.

The conversation regarding Patsy has come up a few times since 97. Not nearly as many times as you might think regarding the circumstance.

First, I read somewhere on a link through here that Patsy attended her high school reunion after JBR's death and was shunned by classmates. I know for a fact this is false. She was greeted warmly and there was even a reception given in her honor. There also was a reception for Patsy given at a local church that weekend.

The people I know went to high school with her, but were not part of her inner circle. Patsy was popular, a golden child. The type of girl who usually incites fierce jealousy because she appeared perfect. However, according to my sources, no one felt that way about her, which is unusual. The reason? She was nice. The people I know said she was nice to everyone, was never snooty, was gracious and kind. They all seemed shocked regarding the hoopla surrounding JBR's death. Not only do most people from her hometown think she is innocent, they also have a hard time believing she was anything but genuine. Seriously. However, this is all based on their impressions of her from youth.

Although I'm not "close" to my sources, I interact with them frequently. And these are people who are level-minded, trustworthy people. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of their accounts. Does this make me biased? Perhaps a little bit. But I trust these people.

 

[BBB167893]

"However, this is all based on their impressions of her from youth."

That about says it all, doesn't it?

How many times on the news have we seen a serial killer's neighbors interviewed? They all say the same thing: they couldn't imagine them doing that.