Ransom Note and Common Sense

[cynic]

Wow. Let's remember that what you are talking about is heresay. None of you (nor do I) know all of the evidence that has been found, nor the particulars of the case so everything you are stating is simple speculation. Both John and Patsy passed lie detector tests. I requested several people in my office write the word "request" in cursive and five of the seven made it look like a small 8. Not only that but a handwriting expert (actually two) stated that it was neither Patsy (hers was actually inconclusive) nor John's writing. The "note" is long, the person that wrote it made several purposeful spelling errors. It is intentionally misleading. It is directed to John only; first, oddly as Mr. Ramsey, then as "John". It also asks for the exact amount of John's bonus that year. The MALE DNA evidence on Jonbenet's clothing and under her nails does not match anyone in the home.

On a side note, my son went missing when he was three (he went next door to visit our neighbor) and I hung up on the 911 operator in the middle of our conversation I was so freaked out. No one knows how you will react in a situation until you are in that situation. When I check on my daughter to see if she is sleeping, I simply open her door and peek in. I don't turn the light on when checking to see if my kids are awake.

I'm not particularly fond of the Ramsey's but I think it seems clear enough they weren't the murderers.

Does anyone know if there has been any information released about the footprint found outside the basement window? I cannot find any followup regarding that. It would also be interesting to find out who was privy to the information about John's bonus, whether everyone working for him had been tested and excluded, etc. I know that certain family friends volunteered and were excluded, and their son was also tested.

I also cannot determine from the writings here what, if any, motive you think Patsy or John Ramsey had for murdering their daughter? (and if it had been them, how on earth they got another unknown man's DNA on her clothes and under her nails?)

Re handwriting analysis
One document examiner (Cina Wong) found 243 similarities between PR’s exemplars and the RN.
… there are over 243 points of similarity between a sample of Patsy Ramsey's writings and the ransom note. "There are so many unique similarities between both writings."
http://www.cinawongforgeryexpert.com...dailypress.asp

Q. What is your degree of certainty yourself as you sit here today that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note?
A. I am absolutely certain that she wrote the note.
Q. Is that 60 percent certain?
A. No, that's 100 percent certain.
DEPOSITION OF GIDEON EPSTEIN
May 17, 2002

Re DNA
(BTW, the DNA from the fingernails is of insufficient quality to be relevant)
Have a look at these posts:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=108432&page=3
Posts 64 and 65
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...=108432&page=7
Post 158

See also:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108432&page=8
Post 177


With respect to the lie detector tests, SuperDave addressed this recently:

“They never TOOK a lie detector test from the police. Those "independent" examiners were shysters bought and paid-for by the Rs to give them a lie detector test that they could claim they passed. The first one couldn't get better than "inconclusive" from PR and immediately quit. The Rs then shopped around until they found one who fudged the questions enough so Patsy could claim she passed, and even then it took her three tries to get it right!”

 

[Zak]

Have a look here:
Right, shut your face and do as I tell you - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks so much for the very informative thread.

 

[Chrishope]

The Rs could not have called friends w/o calling the police. IOWs, what would be the justification for calling people over if you were trying to keep the incident from the police (following the instructions)

The only way to justify a house full of people was to first call the cops (ignoring instructions) at that point, the additional people don't create additional danger. JBR is already being beheaded because the small foreign faction is watching the Rs.

I think the Rs felt it would look less suspicious if other people were around when the body was found. I think they expected the body to be found quickly. It wasn't, but should have been.

They had to call 911 because that's what most people would really do. They had to call shortly after finding the note to make it seem real. They had to find the note at a certain time because that's when they were getting up to prepare for the trip - which was still on, because they didn't yet know their daughter was kidnapped. The trip forced their hand as far as the time line goes. It has nothing to do with making excuses to the pilot.

 

[SheBoss]

The Rs could not have called friends w/o calling the police. IOWs, what would be the justification for calling people over if you were trying to keep the incident from the police (following the instructions)

The only way to justify a house full of people was to first call the cops (ignoring instructions) at that point, the additional people don't create additional danger. JBR is already being beheaded because the small foreign faction is watching the Rs.

I think the Rs felt it would look less suspicious if other people were around when the body was found. I think they expected the body to be found quickly. It wasn't, but should have been.

They had to call 911 because that's what most people would really do. They had to call shortly after finding the note to make it seem real. They had to find the note at a certain time because that's when they were getting up to prepare for the trip - which was still on, because they didn't yet know their daughter was kidnapped. The trip forced their hand as far as the time line goes. It has nothing to do with making excuses to the pilot.

I think Chrishope is absolutely right. Standing ovation, My Friend.

 

[cynic]

Both John and Patsy passed lie detector tests.

Here is a bit more info regarding the Ramseys and the lie detector test debacle.
The BPD wanted an FBI examiner to conduct the tests, the Ramseys refused.
The primary reason is that the FBI would conduct a drug screen prior to conducting the examination.
The Ramseys began to shop around.
This from Gene Parker, a polygrapher, who was contacted:
Were you ever requested or did anyone ever come to you about doing the Ramsey polygraph on John and Patsy?
GP: Yes.
PB: Yep.
GP: Some short period of time ago I received a telephone call from some people that identified themselves as attorneys for John Ramsey.
PB: Did they mention names or could you mention their names?
GP: Yes, they mentioned names but I'm not at liberty to give those out, with due respect.
PB: All right. Fair enough.
GP: At which time I said "yes" since I had done the first one that...
PB: By the way Gene, did they know you had done the Hollis exam?
GP: Yes. Yes. In so much that I utilized an instrument perfected by the United States government and I had done the first Hollis polygraph which kind of started the whole thing that, "Yes, I would be more than happy to examine John and Patsy." And I quoted my fee. At which time I stated that because of the high profile of the case that it would require that a urine examination be done with a medical doctor and a registered nurse, for obvious reasons, presence. Uhhhm, the attorney said, who stated that he was an attorney, I had reason to believe that he was, stated, "Fine, they would get back to me." Some three hours later I received a telephone call from that same telephone number on my Caller-ID that I originally had got stating that they had declined my offer, they had found someone that would not require a urine examination, thank you very much.
Peter Boyles radio show - 06-08-2000

They decided initially on Jerry Toriello, and after failing to pass his tests, they were tested by Ed Gelb. Both did not screen for drugs.
I guess if you shop around, you’ll eventually find what you are looking for.
Gelb fit the bill, the polygrapher of choice for alien abductees – LOL.
Ed Gelb was called in after Travis Walton claimed he was abducted by space aliens and kept for five days aboard their spaceship before being returned to Earth. There were five friends with him that claim that they saw Travis as he was being beamed aboard an alien craft. Ed Gelb gave polygraphs to each of the five witnesses and gave them a clean bill of health. He stated that each of the tests demonstrated that each witness was being conclusively "truthful." Gelb, then declared that the statistical odds of five people "beating the machine" was about one in a million. Later, polygraph expert John J. McCarthy gave Travis Walton a polygraph examination and determined that Travis was deceptive with his responses.
This is not the only time that Ed Gelb has verified an alien abduction. He appeared on a TV show called "Lie Detector" in which he had the opportunity to test Betty Hill. Betty and Barney Hill are the famous couple that claim to have been abducted by space aliens. They say that they were given a physical examination by these aliens while aboard the space ship. After a polygraph examination by Gelb, Betty Hill was declared to have given truthful responses to Gelb's questions.

And Patsy failed once with this guy before she finally passed!!!!!

 

[srvfan]

Read Steve Thomas' book. I am right now and it pretty much sums up how I feel about it.

 

[ThePhantom]

Such a tragedy that a little girl's life has gone unavenged due to the cowardice, selfishness and wickedness of adults.

 

[Ames]

The ransom note and common sense. Common sense would dictate that John Ramsey make the 911 call as Patsy was obviously in an adrenaline fueled panic and barely able to answer simple questions from the operator. Maybe John was just unable to fake the terror needed for this type call. Before I get slammed let me say that I am not saying either of these parents were not understandably distraught over the death of their daughter, but if this had been a real kidnapping there is NO way JR would have let PR make that call.

Even Haney asked her that question in one of her interviews. She said that John was calm and collected during this time, and Haney asked her why JOHN...if he was so calm and collected...did not make the 911 call, instead of her, in her state of hysteria. Yeah, that makes NO sense. And she remembered her address too....no problem. I have had to call 911 before...and my child wasn't missing...but, I was so upset that I couldn't remember my address, it took me a minute to think of it. Patsy just spouted it off.

 

[claudicici]

...that is so true,I had to make a 911 call just a few months ago because my daughter was bleeding profusely from a body piercing ,that she was not supposed to get in the first place (teenagers !) and she passed out.I was absolutely hysterical and her dad took the phone from me almost immediately because all I was doing was screaming"oh my god,oh my god"....so yes,I don't see why JR made her call 911 while he was on all fours reading a neatly spread out 3 page ransom note that PR supposedly just glanced at.....

 

[BBB167893]

Both John and Patsy passed lie detector tests.

You say that like it meant something, Anubis. Those lie detector tests were bought and paid-for by the Ramseys with a specific goal in mind, not a legitimate test, and that was only after 3-1/2 years had already passed. And it took Patsy three tries to get it right. Anybody can pass a test if they take it enough times.

And quite frankly, I don't have much faith in the so-called "legitimate" polygraphs. There's plenty of literature out there on that.

I requested several people in my office write the word "request" in cursive and five of the seven made it look like a small 8.

1) The note was not written in cursive.

2) How many of those five can be proven to have been in the very house that very night?

Not only that but a handwriting expert (actually two) stated that it was neither Patsy (hers was actually inconclusive) nor John's writing.

Are you referring to the two experts the Rs hired?

On a side note, my son went missing when he was three (he went next door to visit our neighbor) and I hung up on the 911 operator in the middle of our conversation I was so freaked out. No one knows how you will react in a situation until you are in that situation. When I check on my daughter to see if she is sleeping, I simply open her door and peek in. I don't turn the light on when checking to see if my kids are awake.

That must have been unbelievable for you.

I'm not particularly fond of the Ramsey's but I think it seems clear enough they weren't the murderers.

Not clear at all, friend.

Does anyone know if there has been any information released about the footprint found outside the basement window? I cannot find any followup regarding that.

It's my understanding that there was no footprint outside the window.

I also cannot determine from the writings here what, if any, motive you think Patsy or John Ramsey had for murdering their daughter?

Depends on who you ask. Even then, most people I know don't think there WAS a motive. That implies premeditation.

(and if it had been them, how on earth they got another unknown man's DNA on her clothes and under her nails?)

Any number of ways. In fact, that's the very problem with DNA evidence: the more sensitive the tests get, the more likely they are to detect DNA that is not relevant to the case at hand. I'll let cynic handle this.

 

[DeeDee249]

There was a footprint found INSIDE the home- in the wineceller close to where the body was found. The print was of a Hi-Tec shoe/boot. These are common shoes for police, contractors, hikers, etc. BR owned a pair (he told LE he did, but his parents denied it). The print found was in the whitish mould on the floor of the wineceller. It was never sourced to a person, and as the Rs claimed BR did not have Hi-Tecs (even though he said he did- his were sneakers) it isn't too far removed to think they'd have gotten them out of the house as soon as the print was made known to them. I don't recall LE asking to collect the family's shoes.

 

[CathyR]

Cathy - you make the most sense of anything I've heard so far. However, if this was the case, why haven't the Ramsey's just said so after all this time? I realize they were panicked and such, but some rememberance should have occured.

"Since the RN was so specific in the amount of the ransom, we figured the kidnappers knew us. We wanted to see if any of our friends were acting weird, so we invited everyone over".

Ok everyone shows up and a few more to boot cause Mary just had to call Joan and so on. No one acts suspicious and the R's feel guilty for suspecting these folks. They were so nice so supportive how could we have suspected them of this. They had no problem however suspecting Fleet White( at a later date) they gave his name to cops. But they sent Burke to their home while the cops were there. Did Burke see or hear something at the White's? That may be one of the questions cops are now asking him. I imagine their suspicion of friends didn't go away and they pointed out to cops after they gathered their friends together who they suspected based on their behavior that morning and previously. They played the it could be someone that knows us well card close to the vest. Since the Ramsey's controlled what info they had, and only they knew, being leaked to the press they may not have wanted all their friends to know we called you over here because Patsy and I thought of you first when our daughter was kidnapped. The police may actually support this and most likely wouldn't release it as it would cause "mob mentality". The support would go out the door along with creating hard feelings. No best to interview these folks without prejudicing them first. If you have hard feelings toward someone you are more likely than not to read things into their behavior to defend yourself and get them first before they get you. Look at the "wars" on this forum and how low people have gone when they felt "attacked" for their opinions. In this case I can see why they wouldn't reveal that fact to the press.

This works for an IDI theory but the calling people over also works for the RDI theory too.

If the plan was to place her body outside once the police left then they needed as many neighbors who could witness someone placing the body outside, in the home, not at their own houses, while the body is being moved. In order for this ploy to not be too suspicious others outside of the immediate area had to be invited too. This is someone elses' theory that I have expounded on. If Mary called Joan and Joan said she was coming but never showed up this could also explain why they abandoned the plan to move the body outside like she was dumped there later by a kidnapper who no neighbor can say they saw. Remove possible witnesses from the viewing area before they can view something. They are expecting Joan and can't have her catching them putting JBR outside when she drives up. That or the failure to contact a certain neighbor who has a great view of the area planned to dump the body at.

Both scenarios work and that makes it difficult for any PD to solve. It is a greatly debated issue on both sides and both sides have valid points.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I just read on another site a theory that might make a little sense on the ransom note. Has anyone ever considered that the "two men watching over her" might have been referring to John and Don Paugh? I don't know if the site is linkable here, but it does make sense on several points. Actually, Don Paugh was the original Fat Cat and it was he that always made remarks about John and Fat Cat as well as having "good Southern common sense" (according to the authors of this site). I need to see if I can link this site so that you can get the whole meaning behind what these guys are saying. Some here may have already read it and I think it makes a lot of sense. There is one interview on ACR with John that concerns Don Paugh and his flying out of Boulder and did he live alone while in Boulder. I think LE had a lot of questions about him and I agree that if they didn't, they should have.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I will not be linking the site I was talking about above as I have read further and it is actually just a blog with some really far out theories and lots of rumours thrown in. However, I still believe DP played a big part in this crime and plan on finding out as much about him as I possibly can. Also, I still think Patsy may have been hinting at JR and DP as the two men watching over her!

 

[eleven]

There was a footprint found INSIDE the home- in the wineceller close to where the body was found. The print was of a Hi-Tec shoe/boot. These are common shoes for police, contractors, hikers, etc. BR owned a pair (he told LE he did, but his parents denied it). The print found was in the whitish mould on the floor of the wineceller. It was never sourced to a person, and as the Rs claimed BR did not have Hi-Tecs (even though he said he did- his were sneakers) it isn't too far removed to think they'd have gotten them out of the house as soon as the print was made known to them. I don't recall LE asking to collect the family's shoes.

Regardless, it doesn't strike me (and obviously not LE, either) odd or even a bit strange that a shoeprint of someone who lived in the house every single day was "close" to where the body was found. Shoot, it could have been 1/4 of a milimeter away from the body and it still doesn't amount to a hill of beans when the print supposedly belonged to a child living in the house every single day.

I will add, that although we have heard about this "Hi-Tec" shoeprint and the fact that Burke also owned a pair, it has never been documented anywhere, or even stated, that the shoeprint was the same size as Burke's foot, or the same size of any 9 year old boy. (Correct me if I am wrong). If it was, I have no doubt THAT info would have been leaked when the actual brand of the >insignificant< shoeprint was.

 

[eleven]

Even Haney asked her that question in one of her interviews. She said that John was calm and collected during this time, and Haney asked her why JOHN...if he was so calm and collected...did not make the 911 call, instead of her, in her state of hysteria. Yeah, that makes NO sense. And she remembered her address too....no problem. I have had to call 911 before...and my child wasn't missing...but, I was so upset that I couldn't remember my address, it took me a minute to think of it. Patsy just spouted it off.[/quote]

Honestly, I don't think that means anything. I mean, I think it boils down to whether or not one can remain calm and studious under extreme pressure, especially with a dramatic horrific event regarding their child. While I understand people 'freezing up' and not being able to get it together enough to state their address, just think of all of the instances of child kidnapping. Unfortuantely, there are many. Many mothers have made that frightening call, with the ability to state their address without delay, and they weren't guilty of anything.

I just think that being able to "spout" off your address during a time of extreme crisis and pressure does not add any redeeming value towards guilt, just as not being able to immediately state ones address does not add to guilt, either.

 

[SunnieRN]

In response to my bold:

He just used those same vision superpowers he used to see JBR in the dark cellar when mere mortal FW couldn't.

Love it!! Would sure explain a lot also!

I will not be linking the site I was talking about above as I have read further and it is actually just a blog with some really far out theories and lots of rumours thrown in. However, I still believe DP played a big part in this crime and plan on finding out as much about him as I possibly can. Also, I still think Patsy may have been hinting at JR and DP as the two men watching over her!

That man makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up!

I still say, that if you love your child, believe she has been kidnapped, have a ransom note that says you are being watched, you would do everything possible to protect your child from harm. My daughter had a frien in Sacramento when she was very young. She was kidnapped. Her name was Candy Tallarico. Her Mother answered any and all questions LE asked. She gave them anything they needed or wanted to help find Candy. She never hired a lawyer, refused to co-operate, or hid anything. Kind of like any NORMAL loving parent would do.

 

[feddup]

I agree, Linda. I have never had a problem with the Ramseys calling the police. I KNOW that I would have done the same. My problem is them calling all their friends (except the Stines, of course) and being allowed to thoroughly bungle the crime scene.

but JR did go and get the ransom money......
I am not sure if I wouldve called the police much less a bunch of friends to come oover. I think I wouldve listened to the instructions in the RN.
I would hope that as long as I could get the money to them they would turn oer my daughter.

Ive never been in such a situation but I think Id be terrified and just get the money to them, which in the note, seems to want. JMO
Werent :they: supposed to call between 8-10AM with instructions to where to send it?

And I think I would go around the house to see where they had gotten in to get JBR. Even if they didnt turn house alarm on, didnt they at least lock their doors at night?
None of it mkes sense.:banghead:

 

[Ames]

Even Haney asked her that question in one of her interviews. She said that John was calm and collected during this time, and Haney asked her why JOHN...if he was so calm and collected...did not make the 911 call, instead of her, in her state of hysteria. Yeah, that makes NO sense. And she remembered her address too....no problem. I have had to call 911 before...and my child wasn't missing...but, I was so upset that I couldn't remember my address, it took me a minute to think of it. Patsy just spouted it off.[/quote]

Honestly, I don't think that means anything. I mean, I think it boils down to whether or not one can remain calm and studious under extreme pressure, especially with a dramatic horrific event regarding their child. While I understand people 'freezing up' and not being able to get it together enough to state their address, just think of all of the instances of child kidnapping. Unfortuantely, there are many. Many mothers have made that frightening call, with the ability to state their address without delay, and they weren't guilty of anything.

I just think that being able to "spout" off your address during a time of extreme crisis and pressure does not add any redeeming value towards guilt, just as not being able to immediately state ones address does not add to guilt, either.

No, what makes them look guilty is the fact that Patsy said that John was "calm and cool"....and she was "hysterical". SO WHY was she the chosen one to make the 911 call?? Because she was the actress in the family....that's why.

 

[joeskidbeck]

No, what makes them look guilty is the fact that Patsy said that John was "calm and cool"....and she was "hysterical". SO WHY was she the chosen one to make the 911 call?? Because she was the actress in the family....that's why.

Right, Ames. Because a normal parent in this situation is going to be a tad upset. I think that's why Patsy did her hysterical performance. John was too cold to call 911 about his "child" that he knew was in the cellar dead.